Another day, another shooting in the US

[Ex-Cyber]

lol typical gun control argument

Guy: Here are a bunch of arguments
Other guys: hey look at this single one that's problematic, let's just ignore everything else

More like:

Guy: Hi, I registered on this board solely to ride my hobby horse in a single thread with dozens of obnoxious posts rehashing points that were already covered more intelligently by regulars, because you fellas clearly need my wisdom so much.

Other guys: cool story, bro

[Ed Oscuro]

So then it should prove easy to just ignore them, rather than embarking on the Voyage of Discovery of Truth only to stop at the last stretch to say "lol just kidding"

It smells like the desperate attempt to claim a victory. A disingenuous, high-fivin' lazy victory.

[Ex-Cyber]

I think both elements are there, depending on the poster. Either way, this thread is well over the cliff and ignoring the fatigue around it is kind of silly.

[Ed Oscuro]

You're welcome to take a rest at any time, you know. There's a reason I haven't been posting it in any time.

I guess this concludes my ill-fated attempt at getting back on track. It always ends like a Socratic dialogue, with everybody running away to the bar.

[CMoon]

I really wish ncc would stop trying to use technical physics terms.

I suppose that's the only real crime that has been committed in this thread.

[neorichieb1971]

The reason I keep posting is because people like NCC are happy to do absolutely nothing at all. WW3 could start in America and people like him would just throw stats around backing up his argument that nothing is wrong.

All I'm seeing is the "I'm alright Jack" stance. The fact that people live in America that can just "totally" accept this shit is the most unbelievable part of it. Is anyone in the UK tuning into Channel 4 at 7pm. I will. Would make some interesting viewing.

[DragonInstall]

The reason I keep posting is because people like NCC are happy to do absolutely nothing at all. WW3 could start in America and people like him would just throw stats around backing up his argument that nothing is wrong.

All I'm seeing is the "I'm alright Jack" stance. The fact that people live in America that can just "totally" accept this shit is the most unbelievable part of it. Is anyone in the UK tuning into Channel 4 at 7pm. I will. Would make some interesting viewing.

Get your head out of your ass. Maybe you might be able to think rationally.

[neorichieb1971]

I want a gun now. You've converted me.

[ncc]

Common sense prevails, seems to be your motto, so by that rationale you should be able to determine why your views are vastly outnumbered

I can't believe you think the Bandwagon Fallacy is a valid argument. Witch burning was popular at one point too.

and all this spurious fact-finding hasn't made a dent in the moral stance of the majority you're preaching to.

You are such a romantic, what with all of this impassioned moral idealism. I'm sure you would do well in politics, especially since you don't let facts get in the way of your argument. This thread, and all of my links, will still be here if you ever get your head out of the clouds.

Guy: Hi, I registered on this board solely to ride my hobby horse in a single thread with dozens of obnoxious posts rehashing points that were already covered more intelligently by regulars, because you fellas clearly need my wisdom so much.

"Critical thinking is hard and I don't know how links work. Let's all ostracize the new guy for being too fucking right about everything."

I'm about done with this thread anyway, probably much to everyone's joy. I'm sure all of the non-Americans in this thread want to go back to circle jerking on their collective moral high horse without any interruptions. Frankly, you're responses are too stupid to enjoy reading anymore. I think Skykid's claim that facts don't matter in the face of a superior moral stance is as good as it's going to get. We've hit the "I'm better than you, therefore you are wrong" ceiling. We can't really go anywhere from here as long as you are thinking like that, and I'm not going to come down to that level of discourse.

Ed Oscuro, DragonInstall, and blackoak: Thanks for not being complete tards. I really appreciate it.

[Skykid]

Bandwagon fallacy.

Whatever next.

[BryanM]

Well, only recent news to report that the NRA uses the euphemism "Connecticut effect" to describe the current climate. It's kind of chilling to realize these guys aren't harmless one issue lobbyists; they've backed lots of shit, like for-profit prisons. For teh profits.

Which are in turn a milder version of the more ruthless version of slavery, really.

Honestly more interested in talking about Vietnam now tho; 'cause Moyers talked about it and I am a sheep. It's neat how we were obsessed with "kill count", and how there were sports scores for it and everything. Reminds me of the Japanese officer's decapitation competitions.

Guy: Hi, I registered on this board solely to ride my hobby horse in a single thread with dozens of obnoxious posts rehashing points that were already covered more intelligently by regulars, because you fellas clearly need my wisdom so much.

Heh, thanks for this summary. (As my recent faux pas shows; have been avoiding this one like the plague. Sometimes foresight pays off.)

Does he even lift?

[DrTrouserPlank]

Christ, there's so much bunk in this thread that it staggers belief...

I can make up statistics too.

Did you know that of the 1 pikey scumbag who got decked in a fight outside the Yates' pub in West street, the family of said pikey believed that baseball bats and "'avin' it" would be the best form of control to prevent it from happening again.

Let's legalise baseball bats pre-loaded with nails (let's legalise 'avin' it whilst we're at it) and finally let's legalise anything that the great unwashed think is a good idea.

Some of the stuff in this thread is so stupid that I felt I needed to add that.

If laws were based and created on popular opinion then I shudder to think what the world would be like.

The issue of semi-automatic weapons being distributed amongst civilians is a non-argument... it's moronic.. take a look at what it's created. You've got kids shooting kids and people saying that more guns are the answer... in areas where guns are prohibited. Guns have done a great deal of good in all the prolific shootings in recent times. Law abiding citizens are merely sitting ducks to those who flout the law.

Good luck overthrowing that tyrannical government that you use to justify the proliferation of weapons.

The sad thing is that Obama really has an opportunity to change things. He's got his second term, he's not looking for re-election. He's got his Nobel peace prize. Maybe it's time to actually make the "change" that he preached so much about during his first election campaign and change things drastically and for the better, and actually warrant having his name immortalised as a Nobel prize winner

[mesh control]

The sad thing is that Obama really has an opportunity to change things. He's got his second term, he's not looking for re-election. He's got his Nobel peace prize. Maybe it's time to actually make the "change" that he preached so much about during his first election campaign and change things drastically and for the better, and actually warrant having his name immortalised as a Nobel prize winner

lol

[trap15]

Did you know that of the 1 pikey scumbag who got decked in a fight outside the Yates' pub in West street, the family of said pikey believed that baseball bats and "'avin' it" would be the best form of control to prevent it from happening again.

Let's legalise baseball bats pre-loaded with nails (let's legalise 'avin' it whilst we're at it) and finally let's legalise anything that the great unwashed think is a good idea.

Holy shit, actually laughed really hard IRL. Very well played, planky, very well played.

[BryanM]

Considering the state of the house and senate, I think the man deserves a peace prize if we don't start another ground war in Asia against bogeymen and don't have drones firing missiles into our own cities.

In retrospect, I actually think this is what the committee's expectations were to begin with. Dead srs.

[ncc]

I can make up statistics too.

That anecdote isn't a statistic.

If laws were based and created on popular opinion then I shudder to think what the world would be like.

Do you know how a republic is supposed to work? Pretty much exactly like that.

The sad thing is that Obama really has an opportunity to change things. He's got his second term, he's not looking for re-election. He's got his Nobel peace prize. Maybe it's time to actually make the "change" that he preached so much about during his first election campaign and change things drastically and for the better, and actually warrant having his name immortalised as a Nobel prize winner

Does that change include personally approving over 300 drone strikes that have killed as many children in Pakistan as American school shootings have in the past 25 years? Truly a visionary. He really has earned that peace prize.

I think the man deserves a peace prize if we [. . .] don't have drones firing missiles into our own cities.

Obama loves drone strikes. He loves them so much he wants to share them with the rest of the country.

[Lord Satori]

If laws were based and created on popular opinion then I shudder to think what the world would be like.

Do you know how a republic is supposed to work? Pretty much exactly like that.

So THATS why this country is so fucked up...

Common sense prevails, seems to be your motto, so by that rationale you should be able to determine why your views are vastly outnumbered

I can't believe you think the Bandwagon Fallacy is a valid argument. Witch burning was popular at one point too.

Pointing out fallacies like that is just annoying. Being able to act like a condescending dick all the time doesn't automatically make you right.

Guy: Hi, I registered on this board solely to ride my hobby horse in a single thread with dozens of obnoxious posts rehashing points that were already covered more intelligently by regulars, because you fellas clearly need my wisdom so much.

"Critical thinking is hard and I don't know how links work. Let's all ostracize the new guy for being too fucking right about everything."

You really have no fucking clue, do you?

By the way, not all of us who disagree with you aren't American. I'm an American myself.

The sad thing is that Obama really has an opportunity to change things. He's got his second term, he's not looking for re-election. He's got his Nobel peace prize. Maybe it's time to actually make the "change" that he preached so much about during his first election campaign and change things drastically and for the better, and actually warrant having his name immortalised as a Nobel prize winner

Does that change include personally approving over 300 drone strikes that have killed as many children in Pakistan as American school shootings have in the past 25 years?

No, dumbass. He's saying that Obama HASN'T made that change yet. How many drone strikes he's approved is irrelevant. In fact, bringing it up is kinda destructive to your arguement, both drones and guns are made to kill. Why are you for guns, but against drones?

Death is death. No matter how much or how little, it should always be prevented given the possibility.

[dave4shmups]

I'm personally sick of there always being a crisis in this country in everything BUT lazy parenting. There's always a crisis in gun control, in video game violence, in obesity, in education, but NEVER a crisis in lazy, bad parenting, which is were all the rest of these trends have their roots, IMO. I went to high school from 1992-1996, and there were plenty of Pepsi and snack/junk food vending machines on our huge campus, and yet there was NO national obesity epidemic, while companies like Pepsi and Coke are demonized as if they're selling arsenic to kids.

As if this were not bad enough, these same parents always bitch that they're not given enough information on video game content, nutritional content in food, and have the nerve to call for restrictions on freedoms that are protected by the Constitution

The shooting at Sandy Hill was tragic, but it at LEAST partly a result of bad and lazy parenting. The shooter's Mom knew that he had mental problems, took him to a shooting range, and had NONE of her guns locked up in a safe.

I certainly didn't turn out perfect, and neither did my older brother, but our parents took responsibility for raising us-they didn't expect everyone else to do it.

[trap15]

I'm personally sick of there always being a crisis in this country in everything BUT lazy parenting. There's always a crisis in gun control, in video game violence, in obesity, in education, but NEVER a crisis in lazy, bad parenting, which is were all the rest of these trends have their roots, IMO. I went to high school from 1992-1996, and there were plenty of Pepsi and snack/junk food vending machines on our huge campus, and yet there was NO national obesity epidemic, while companies like Pepsi and Coke are demonized as if they're selling arsenic to kids.

As if this were not bad enough, these same parents always bitch that they're not given enough information on video game content, nutritional content in food, and have the nerve to call for restrictions on freedoms that are protected by the Constitution

The shooting at Sandy Hill was tragic, but it at LEAST partly a result of bad and lazy parenting. The shooter's Mom knew that he had mental problems, took him to a shooting range, and had NONE of her guns locked up in a safe.

I certainly didn't turn out perfect, and neither did my older brother, but our parents took responsibility for raising us-they didn't expect everyone else to do it.

I know we have our disagreements, but I cannot quote this harder.

[blackoak]

No, dumbass. He's saying that Obama HASN'T made that change yet. How many drone strikes he's approved is irrelevant. In fact, bringing it up is kinda destructive to your arguement, both drones and guns are made to kill. Why are you for guns, but against drones?

Drone strikes are extrajudicial killings by the state: you know, what due process and the 5th amendment is supposed to protect. And the "legal" arguments put forth by this administration to justify them are atrocious, if you've the mind to read and understand them (not easy I admit--I have a legal background). Guns, otoh... well, you can read the rest of this thread for that.

[neorichieb1971]

My son lives in America. If he got shot at school what could I do? Shrug my shoulders, make more sons and hope they don't get shot?

Yep, thats what I would do. Thats all you can do. At first I thought the gun pros were quite nice. But the last 2 or 3 pages of this thread have really made me hate them. Spewing statistics when all I am trying to do is find ways to stop this happening. Which Americans seem to be very deaf to that idea. The shits happened time and again, the media has highlighted it as a problem and the media will just give the idea to more people ready to flip.

Will be interesting to see where it goes if it happens anytime soon again.

Really, I'm trying to get someone to say its tough shit if you get shot. I really really am. Because provoking that response just about sums up everything.

[CMoon]

The reason I keep posting is because people like NCC are happy to do absolutely nothing at all.

You're making the really big assumption that NCC isn't a POE, a really poor assumption IMO.

I say have fun until imminent blackman.txt

[CMoon]

My son lives in America. If he got shot at school what could I do? Shrug my shoulders, make more sons and hope they don't get shot?

Yep, thats what I would do. Thats all you can do. At first I thought the gun pros were quite nice. But the last 2 or 3 pages of this thread have really made me hate them. Spewing statistics when all I am trying to do is find ways to stop this happening. Which Americans seem to be very deaf to that idea. The shits happened time and again, the media has highlighted it as a problem and the media will just give the idea to more people ready to flip.

Will be interesting to see where it goes if it happens anytime soon again.

Really, I'm trying to get someone to say its tough shit if you get shot. I really really am. Because provoking that response just about sums up everything.

Sorry, double post. I think it is clear there is a problem. I think whatever your view is, you need to acknowledge there is a problem, and for most human beings that would lead toward contemplating a solution. The problem is that the one offered by the NRA would do absolutely nothing to solve the problem, while the government hasn't really offered any solution at all. The pro-gun folks here should be just as concerned about the problem and looking for solutions instead of freaking out because they are enormously afraid that the only real solution might conflict with their gun rights. In effect, by evading the issues, they are saying 'tough shit'. They'll just wait until people move on.

So tough shit it is.

[trap15]

[BryanM]

Man I still wonder about the contents of blackman.txt to this day.

If you guys could read the .txts I have, hoo boy.... you'd be reading partial game design documents for a lot of half baked never made vidya games, and a couple actionable ones. I still think my scrap booking of ideas has practical applications: there are many times when I cannibalize something old when it fits perfectly.

I'm personally sick of there always being a crisis in this country in everything BUT lazy parenting.

Just like the old turds who hate the next generation of kids throughout history. People are people, they never change, parents are as shit as they've always been, you're being lazy/racist/sexist/ageist/capitalist* trying to find a scapegoat, deal with it.

* (This one refers to the American meme that everything is competition to be "won" or "lost" - and the ever-hungering need to be "better than" someone else. This has strong ties with nationalism, but our blend of nationalism is darwinian.)

I went to high school from 1992-1996, and there were plenty of Pepsi and snack/junk food vending machines on our huge campus, and yet there was NO national obesity epidemic, while companies like Pepsi and Coke are demonized as if they're selling arsenic to kids.

........

Derp derp derpily derp

The problem is that the one offered by the NRA would do absolutely nothing to solve the problem, while the government hasn't really offered any solution at all.

It is a silly farce. Like I said on like page 1, you'd have to get to a culture that feels like we shouldn't have guns at all. It will take a century or two to get there. Today is not a century or two from now. Let's just be glad the hippies got rid of child labor and be happy about that.

But again, it's still a red herring. There are lots of socialist countries, like... Vermont.... that have slutty gun control laws and have far fewer per capita bloodbaths. Just another religion, really. Opiate of the people, and all that.

[mesh control]

more of this.
fuck everything.

[Ed Oscuro]

Today's headline: State legislator Jase Bolger believes that "gun free zones" (like schools) present soft targets.

Solution: Arm the educators!

Note that this is the same Republican party that says "you can't trust those union teachers."

Teachers already have enough power over kids in the classroom - most of the time - but I can almost guarantee that if they pass it, one of the following things is going to happen (and possibly all of them multiple times) before a teacher successfully stops an attack on school children:

- Nervous / drugged / suicidal / evil / clumsy teacher shoots themselves or a student
- Somebody gets a gun away from a teacher and shoots somebody

Hard to see how this effort would make schools safer. Teachers do sometimes get assaulted by students but introducing a firearm into that mix doesn't make it better. A school is a fundamentally different kind of setting than a remote home - there are other students (some of who might assist the teacher), there might be a police officer, and many teachers are going to be more physically capable than many students.

Again, using a rare occurrence like a massacre to drive public policy on routine matters is driving bad law. Michigan does require concealed carry permits be renewed every five years but I would like to see that tied in more strongly with some kind of demonstration of competence.

[Moniker]

Are you sure they're recommending arming the teachers? That seems.. beyond the pale of reason. Target hardening isn't exactly a new concept. Campus security could go a long way.

Then again, if a guy isn't planning to live through his spree, there isn't a whole lot one can do about it, regardless of the target.

[Ed Oscuro]

Very sure.
The Republican Governor, Rick Snyder, has said something sensible about this, however: link

This is a kind of positive rights - negative rights clash, and the pro-proliferation groups are right insofar as a ban on the right to arm wherever you like is a curb on rights. But this isn't the only good that must be considered and protected. People have some right, through deliberation and democratic processes, to determine for themselves what a good community policy might look like. In a case like this, I think that the greatest good is found in a deproliferating policy, especially in a relatively closed environment with an inequality in fact between populations as to the rights they may express (i.e. teachers and the schools relatively greater freedoms compared to students).

[BryanM]

Are you sure they're recommending arming the teachers?

... where have you been for the last ten years?

rare occurrence

Well it's more of a regular occurrence when it's a tri-annual kind of thing.