Shmup stinkers

[jepjepjep]

.....I really love ghost pilots. I know it's got some faults, but its got some good things about it, too.

I agree with this. Sure it's no Blazing Star but it's fun in it's own right. They were clearly going for the Flying Shark-inspired gameplay. I wouldn't consider it a shmup stinker.

[Skykid]

Cool, 2 more Amiga lovelies. Are these Euroshmups by any chance?

I think they're both british-made. Does that count or does it have to be continental Europe? Bizarrely, they are fondly remembered by many people I know. They're pretty to look at, though, so maybe that's why.

I think anything not Japanese is a Euroshmup, lol. Just added the vids for these. Agony is pretty, although I can see after scrolling through the longplay that it has obvious problems. Project X doesn't even have music?
Anyway I'll let you folks do the disputing and all that.

Armalyte on C64. Overrated fucking garbage even back in the day.

Oh come on now.

Yeah, I can't agree with that one. For a C64 it looks like a smart little shmup: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUFAmJPqxK8

PSX - Two Tenkaku

Just played/1CCed it once, it sucks.

It certainly doesn't look like the best shmup since sliced bread, but after checking out Ghegs' video it doesn't look crushingly awful either. I've never even heard of this before, does anyone else have any thoughts on it before I add it on?

Gun Frontier

Lets just say it's eccentric. Like Radiant Silvergun.

Every Taito-published shmup ever prior to RayForce/Darius Gaiden (that was not developed by Toaplan)

Darius (boring as fuck, though it set the template)
Darius II
Megablast
Metal Black (great music and epic bosses though)
Master of Weapon
Fighting Hawk
Ryu Jin
Tokyo/Scramble Formation

Yes, the first two Darius games were dull and generic. There, I said it.

Sorry, but you're wrong, the first two Darius games are great Darius games, if you know Darius games and how they're meant to be played. Come at them with a Gradius mindset where power-ups are everything and death is an involuntary reset and you may learn to love them.

Also, throwing up a whole slew of Taito games prior to a certain date isn't realistic. If you could seriously choose something for review, that would be appreciated (not Darius, Metal Black plz - the others I'm not so familiar with.)

Skykid:
Equites is pretty cool and does not belong there at all, what the fuck is this nonsense? Get it the fuck off the list right now! What kind of monster suggested that?

Yes, CHI disputed this last night in person, so I played it this morning and it's pretty good fun! Keeping in mind it's 1984, I don't see much of a problem with it, it's certainly playable (and even slightly original), so I'm the 3rd disputee with Drum and CHI, and it's off the list.

I agree with this [Ghost Pilots] Sure it's no Blazing Star but it's fun in it's own right. They were clearly going for the Flying Shark-inspired gameplay. I wouldn't consider it a shmup stinker.

Arrgh, you have no idea the pain you're making me go through in removing Ghost Pilots from the list, but you've made it happen. Slow, boring, plane that moves like treacle, retarded hitbox, fake wannabee Toaplan clone. No longer a stinker, damn you all to hell.

I've added videos for everything else outstanding (where videos are available.)

[Ghegs]

I don't think there's anything particularly bad about Two Tenkaku. It just doesn't have anything particularly good, either. It's just mediocre, not worthy of a stinker reputation.

And the Buddhism-themed bombs are actually kinda cool, I think. Apparently I still have the game, maybe I'll do a full playthrough video.

[Herr Schatten]

Armalyte on C64. Overrated fucking garbage even back in the day.

Oh come on now.

Yeah, I can't agree with that one. For a C64 it looks like a smart little shmup: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUFAmJPqxK8

It does have its problems, but it's certainly no stinker. I'm totally on board with calling it overrated, though.

[Ed Oscuro]

Every Taito-published shmup ever prior to RayForce/Darius Gaiden (that was not developed by Toaplan)

Darius (boring as fuck, though it set the template)
Darius II
Megablast
Metal Black (great music and epic bosses though)
Master of Weapon
Fighting Hawk
Ryu Jin
Tokyo/Scramble Formation

Yes, the first two Darius games were dull and generic. There, I said it.

None of these are real stinkers. Many of them are actually great - Darius games, Metal Black, Fighting Hawk arguably, Ryu Jin. Megablast, Master of Weapon, and Tokio didn't strike me as really good, although Megablast might be closer to Toaplan's Hellfire, which would make it a good game.

@ Skykid: Remove Equites and put in Major Stryker

[Skykid]

@ Skykid: Remove Equites and put in Major Stryker

Done, and damn, your sarcasm is tough to read.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Darius 2 a stinker? Get out!

I never quite got the hate for Xenon 2 myself. I used to play the DOS version in what must've been 1990 or so and liked it a lot. Then again I wasn't nearly as educated on what makes a shmup great.

I've only played the SMS version and don't remember it anywhere near as dull as the MD version clip in the video link. It does move horrifically slowly and that's also my main issue with the just mentioned Gun Frontier (along with the massive difficulty spike later on thanks to bullets everywhere and a huge hitbox).

[Ed Oscuro]

@ Skykid: Remove Equites and put in Major Stryker

Done, and damn, your sarcasm is tough to read.

I've been chuckling to myself for years over the whole Major Stryker thing, but I think now is a good time to reveal my rather low regard of Apogee Software in creating this game. They have some legitimately good ideas, and it has some nice music, but those are very nearly the game's only redeeming qualities. I suppose it could be considered playable, though, and it's hard to say how much of the game's unpleasantness is really the fault of the DOS PC platform they were targeting (although they released very many sidescrollers that featured free scrolling and weren't too bad).

[Kollision]

I never quite got the hate for Xenon 2 myself. I used to play the DOS version in what must've been 1990 or so and liked it a lot. Then again I wasn't nearly as educated on what makes a shmup great.

I've only played the SMS version and don't remember it anywhere near as dull as the MD version clip in the video link. It does move horrifically slowly and that's also my main issue with the just mentioned Gun Frontier (along with the massive difficulty spike later on thanks to bullets everywhere and a huge hitbox).

That's probably because Xenon 2 fits the 8-bit format much better than it does 16-bit machines.
Nevertheless the game is a stinking turd in whatever existing form.

[Captain]

Soldner X.

Taking euroshmup to a whole new level.

[EmperorIng]

Gun Frontier

For reasons obvious to anyone who has ever played Gun Frontier

Eh, it's pretty fun to play. Playing for score in the game becomes pretty retarded quickly. I'm about 33% at the 1CC ( = I made it to stage 4. Another 33% is making it through stage 5, and the final 33% is beating the final boss).

Soldner X.

Taking euroshmup to a whole new level.

With how routinely this game is panned on this site, I almost want to play it out of a morbid sense of curiosity.

Also, if I could get autofire to work in MAME UI 146 (no options?), I would enjoy Megablast much more.

[moonwhistle]

I'd vote to get Philosoma but back on that list. It does everything wrong for a shooter. Hideous graphics, even for the time are more importantly unbelievably dull. The alternate viewpoints try to add variety but they just make a bad game worse. Being an early disc release they desperately filled up the cd with endless cut scenes. If it's not a stinker I don't know what is.

Has anyone mentioned Master of Weapon on Megadrive? I remember it being dire.

[R3ma1ns]

At the risk of getting pelted with rubbish, I actually have rather fond memories of both Thunder Spirits and Strike Gunner S.T.G. for the SNES. This might be just because I grew up with them (alongside classics like R-TYPE and Gradius), but I still enjoy them today, for all their flaws. That, and I thought the music/SFX for the SNES versions was more fun than the original Megadrive and Arcade variants, respectively.

*ducks under a table*

[Captain]

Emperor, you might wanna try using shmupmame or this

[mice]

Some of the games mentioned I'd rate to be in the absolute top.
Like Metal Black, for instance.

[Captain]

Metal black is perfectly fine!

[MJR]

I never quite got the hate for Xenon 2 myself. I used to play the DOS version in what must've been 1990 or so and liked it a lot. Then again I wasn't nearly as educated on what makes a shmup great.

I've only played the SMS version and don't remember it anywhere near as dull as the MD version clip in the video link. It does move horrifically slowly and that's also my main issue with the just mentioned Gun Frontier (along with the massive difficulty spike later on thanks to bullets everywhere and a huge hitbox).

That's probably because Xenon 2 fits the 8-bit format much better than it does 16-bit machines.
Nevertheless the game is a stinking turd in whatever existing form.

Xenon 2 had lot of visual inventinevess and better graphics than anything that was released on arcades at 1989 (best shmups graphically at the time were Saint Dragon and Dragon Breed, and Truxton), the level of invention with monsters and powerups was only matched by irem games. When you played it on amiga, it truly felt like having a coinop at home, sans the bad framerate.

It hasn't aged well, because most of the stuff that was fresh at the time is not so fresh any more, and lack of popcorn enemies and player having to resort to autofire takes away the feeling of power (which you can only get so late in the game that you can't enjoy it any more).

But the pixel art is still unmatched, first time I saw anything that was on the same level was with Raiden 2, which was, of course, massively better game.

Therefore, Xenon 2 is only average game by today's standards; but it's no stinker - play it on amiga emulator with autofire and cheats, and you can still enjoy the skillfully created imaginative pixel artwork.

Project X is far far worse game than Xenon 2.

[PooshhMao]

For some reason I now feel compelled to write exactly what I like and dislike about Xenon II

Likes:

- The graphics are at the very least, interesting, and really were coin-op quality back when it came out - surpassing most coin-ops even at that time, I think (Truxton notwithstanding)
- Nice amount of variety in enemies, scenery, and weaponry
- One of the first shmups where you need to collect money to spend on weapons in a shop
- Large selection of weapons, with nicely animated sprites

Dislikes:

- Megablast theme tune gets old, fast
- Slow, floaty, 'Euro'-feel, with unwelcome intertia
- The shopping sequence is very, very flawed. You don't know how much money you've gathered until you get to spend it. You first get to sell your stuff, but you have no idea what's being offered for purchase afterwards if you haven't played the game before, so it is feasible you sell a weapon you don't like very much, only to realize there's no alternative being offered afterwards, so you have to continue playing underpowered; without prior knowledge, it's also impossible to know which weapons take up the same slot, so buying a weapon that replaces another makes you lose the old one without warning or compensation; same goes for the 'Power Up' item, which (I think) always gets applied to the last weapon you have obtained which is capable of being powered up. You can buy six power ups and only realize while resuming play that only two of them were applied to a weapon you didn't want to upgrade and the other four are simply wasted; and why not offer all weapons available from the start? You wouldn't be able to purchase the better ones until you've gathered enough anyway, and this way at least you could replay the game each time picking a different configuration. The poor weapon balance and availability means that each time you play the game, you end up buying the same weapons every time because not doing so will punish you.
- Very unclimactic ending
- Some other stuff

[Kollision]

You forgot somethin, Poosh
it plays like shit

[MJR]

You forgot somethin, Poosh
it plays like shit

Dude, thats like, YOUR opinion

[Kollision]

Exactly!

And in the case of Xenon 2 I feel I must voice it loud and clear.

[Mero]

Yeah, I thought it was crap as well.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

Yeah, if there's one problem with Xenon 2 it's that theres only one "route" through the shop. You have to learn what's going to be available and what to sell beforehand, leaving no room to replay the game with a different weapon layout - its seems there's only one way to do it (with side shots). There's also a few penalty weapons in there. The rear shots it gives you on 4.2 ruin your game - don't pick them up.

It plays fine though and is doable without auto fire. Probably my favorite Amiga shmup. Loop 3 is crazy.

[MJR]

Yeah, if there's one problem with Xenon 2 it's that theres only one "route" through the shop. You have to learn what's going to be available and what to sell beforehand, leaving no room to replay the game with a different weapon layout - its seems there's only one way to do it (with side shots). There's also a few penalty weapons in there. The rear shots it gives you on 4.2 ruin your game - don't pick them up.

It plays fine though and is doable without auto fire. Probably my favorite Amiga shmup. Loop 3 is crazy.

Huh? I did not guess that further loops up the challenge! That's quite cool, not many developers did that. By the way, compared to other shmups at the time it was pretty much a norm - Forgotten worlds from capcom had exactly same problem!

Now I got finally an original copy of this game, I can get back to it again

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

^Yes, don't believe Wikipedia - the game does loop and the loops get harder (but it seems only enemy hp increases. No new waves or anything.)

[BuckoA51]

I'm curious if any of you think that X-Out belongs on this list. Now I have been known to really enjoy shmups that most of you would turn your noses up at (Banshee for example) and I remember playing X-Out on the C64 and actually finding the whole uber-shop thing quite interesting, as it made for a lot of different strategies. Never beat the game of course, but, wondering if I should hunt it down for the Amiga and play it again, thoughts?

I suppose only having an Amiga growing up I got used to bad shmups Another Amiga shooter I enjoyed at the time was Disposable Hero, I think. Project X was always crap though.

[ciox]

I only played the Spectrum port of X-Out but it wasn't that bad, and the shop was epic. Of course, anything was if it showed you a mouse cursor with clicking and dragging on a Spectrum.

[Herr Schatten]

I'm curious if any of you think that X-Out belongs on this list. Now I have been known to really enjoy shmups that most of you would turn your noses up at (Banshee for example) and I remember playing X-Out on the C64 and actually finding the whole uber-shop thing quite interesting, as it made for a lot of different strategies. Never beat the game of course, but, wondering if I should hunt it down for the Amiga and play it again, thoughts?

I wouldn't call X-Out a stinker, but it's not really all that great either. It had a couple of really nice ideas, but their implementation was somewhat lacking. The production values were top-notch, though.

I found the idea of using your score as in-game currency to buy stuff pretty intriguing. If you wanted to score high, you'd try to play the game using minimal resources. If you just wanted to complete the game and didn't care about your score, you could just blow it on extra ships and weapons.

Unfortunately, most of the items you could buy at the shop acted more or less the same, so outfitting your ship(s) with one over the other was more of a cosmetic thing. Additionally, I found the level structure of the game pretty bland and uninteresting. A missed opportunity for sure. With some more honing and attention to details, the game could have shaped up really nicely. I guess they were more interested in producing an impressive intro sequence than spending actual time on getting the game right.

Btw: If you've already got the C64 version, there's no need to track down the Amiga version, as the C64 port is actually superior.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

It's nice playing X-Out in Winuae. One thing about C64 version is that the status bar fills half the screen and then you have large black borders too, leaving you with a microscopic playing area. Winuae forces the image to fill your screen.

[Marc]

Xenon 2 had lot of visual inventinevess and better graphics than anything that was released on arcades at 1989 (best shmups graphically at the time were Saint Dragon and Dragon Breed, and Truxton), the level of invention with monsters and powerups was only matched by irem games. When you played it on amiga, it truly felt like having a coinop at home, sans the bad framerate.

It hasn't aged well, because most of the stuff that was fresh at the time is not so fresh any more, and lack of popcorn enemies and player having to resort to autofire takes away the feeling of power (which you can only get so late in the game that you can't enjoy it any more).

But the pixel art is still unmatched, first time I saw anything that was on the same level was with Raiden 2, which was, of course, massively better game.

Therefore, Xenon 2 is only average game by today's standards; but it's no stinker - play it on amiga emulator with autofire and cheats, and you can still enjoy the skillfully created imaginative pixel artwork.

Project X is far far worse game than Xenon 2.

Dude, Xenon two looking nicer than St Dragon and Dragon Breed... I'll have an ounce of your poison please.
But yeah, it was marginally better than Project X.

I kind of enjoyed C64 X-Out in the day, and though my main memory of it now is the fucking superb music. Title, St1 and scoreboard were amazing.

I always found Game Paradise on Saturn to be an overrated lump of shit as well.