Amusingly bad reviews

[trap15]

we need to get rid of them completely

No. Just no.

Why not? Put a little thought into it, his position entirely makes sense and I entirely agree with it. If you actually have a disagreement, explain it and elaborate. I'm curious why you would disagree, and I'm interested to hear another view point.

[Pretas]

I'd be in favour of getting rid of continues if there was still an option to practice levels separately, or a series of difficulty levels with an incentive to play each in turn; Jamestown did that pretty well, and I think it only gave you a couple of continues, so you couldn't credit-feed your way through the entire game.

Ginga Force never gives you any continues, but the main game is broken up by a stage select screen, with each stage given its own scoreboard and no option to play through them all continuously (which would be far too long). Additionally, you can unlock equipment that starts you out with extra lives.

The original Xbox version of Metal Slug 3 also lacks any continues whatsoever, though it has a stage select that gradually opens up as you clear each one. You can start from any stage you have and still unlock the next one that way.

[Lord Satori]

When two people are in the same position, both staring at a brick wall, there is no need to elaborate on why they are facing the wrong way.

[trap15]

When two people are in the same position, both staring at a brick wall, there is no need to elaborate on why they are facing the wrong way.

You're still not giving an argument. As I said, I'm very willing to hear any opposing viewpoints and entertain them. I don't quite see how that's "staring at a brick wall".

Do not attempt to troll me. It will not work.

[mastermx]

Having infinite continues, means that there is no sense of challenge, and a noob would cease to see these games as games. I would be in favor of having a limited set of continues, that can't be increased beyond 3. It's arbitrary, but perhaps completely removing continues would freak out potential newcomers to the genre. Balancing a game to suit the hardcore and the casual is tough, nay impossible. But having infinite continues I believe destroys your potential market as much as taking continues away completely.

[Kollision]

Could taking out the continues in Giga Wing on the DC prevent retarded reviews like this and this?

I don't think so, but I'd love to find a review of Gradius III/IV (PS2) written by people with the same mindset as the above "reviewers" just to have a glimpse at the other end of the spectrum - because neither G3/G4 has any continue whatsoever, only practice modes that are pretty much useless for 95% of the gamers because you start every checkpoint with a bare Vic Viper.

[pegboy]

I don't think so, but I'd love to find a review of Gradius III/IV (PS2) written by people with the same mindset as the above "reviewers" just to have a glimpse at the other end of the spectrum - because neither G3/G4 has any continue whatsoever, only practice modes that are pretty much useless for 95% of the gamers because you start every checkpoint with a bare Vic Viper.

That's not entirely true.

Gradius III has no continues but it does allow you to resume play from any checkpoint in the game. If you are playing on easy difficulty then you can use the konami code to essentially start any checkpoint fully powered up. You can get through the entire game this way if for nothing than to just see what the game has to offer. It's definitely a broken game with some shockingly bad design, but still somehow one of my favorites.

In Gradius IV, you do have infinite continues, and can credit feed the entire game (That's how I "beat" it the first time). Even beating it this way would be extremely hard if not impossible for a newer player since you still have to reach the next checkpoint with your underpowered pee-shooter.

As far as balancing the use of continues, I think Gradius V (and Gaiden?) does it the best in that it rewards you with more and more continues the longer you play the game. Eventually you can unlock infinite continues but it takes like 20 hours of playing it to reach that point, so you have to put some time into the game before you earn it. So even really bad players can experience the entire game as long as they put enough time into it.

[Kollision]

In Gradius IV, you do have infinite continues, and can credit feed the entire game (That's how I "beat" it the first time).

Tks for the correction, I guess it's been a long time since I tried IV.

Gradius III has no continues but it does allow you to resume play from any checkpoint in the game.

by that you mean with practice mode, right?

I don't think we should consider easy and Konami code.

[LordHypnos]

As far as balancing the use of continues, I think Gradius V (and Gaiden?) does it the best in that it rewards you with more and more continues the longer you play the game. Eventually you can unlock infinite continues but it takes like 20 hours of playing it to reach that point, so you have to put some time into the game before you earn it. So even really bad players can experience the entire game as long as they put enough time into it.

I actually brought this up earlier, because Mars Matrix does this as well (you can also unlock more lives, various other options to make the game easier). But someone pointed out that your average reviewer would probably say "you have to grind for hours just to see the whole game" or something along those lines, and still mark it down.

I kinda think that the best way is to send you back to the beginning of the level if you continue, so that you could theoretically brute force your way through it, but you would be forced to improve your level of play to do so (though not necessarily to the point of being able to 1cc). Touhou games do this, and some old Genesis shooters (Technosoft games are what I'm thinking of).

Another possible idea is to base games around a stage select like rRootage, but hardcore people can't play for the 1cc, then.

I imagine reviewers would figure out a way to complain about either of those too, though. I think arcade games are just doomed to obscurity, really.

[Volteccer_Jack]

If Gradius III allowed continues, I would not be playing shmups today. Or a bunch of other games, really. It taught me what arcade games are about at a time when I was a complete idiot and would have happily stumbled off in the wrong direction.

Even as a concept I think continues are bad. Better to just be generous with lives/health/shields/bombs/etc. if you really want to let the player make mistakes.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Only MoF, SA, UFO forced you back to the beginning of the stage. Every other one let you continue right from where you were, though you had limited continues preMoF but I think it's unlimited after UFO.


Gradius III has the checkpoint system, so even if you could continue, it would still be ridiculously hard to get through the game. But the no continues thing that both 1 and III have definitely forces you to get used to the intended play style. Though the SNES version of Gradius III does have continues, but I think it's only 2 or 3 of them IIRC(haven't played it in a long time). In fact, maybe it would have been better off with continues for that reason since people could use credits to try to figure out later checkpoints, though I doubt the game would have been much more popular.

[Squire Grooktook]

For the "get rid of continues" argument, I'd say it really doesn't matter. If you get rid of continues "it's impossible". Have them "it's too easy". You're damned if you do, damned if you do.

But unlimited continues do have some benefits for some of us, in letting us practice a bit past the first credit. Although a practice mode could accomplish the same thing, so it's not really a big benefit, more of a convenience/preference sort of thing.

The only thing I could think of that might benefit from no continues is perhaps if some semi-casual dark souls players or something who don't understand scoring or 1cc's get hooked on a game that has no continues out of curiosity to see the end. That's the best case scenario. Worst case scenario is that it sells less to casual players who just want to pay 5 bucks for it on steam and credit feed through once before throwing it away (that's still 5 bucks going to the dev, regardless).

[Mortificator]

As far as balancing the use of continues, I think Gradius V (and Gaiden?) does it the best in that it rewards you with more and more continues the longer you play the game. Eventually you can unlock infinite continues but it takes like 20 hours of playing it to reach that point, so you have to put some time into the game before you earn it. So even really bad players can experience the entire game as long as they put enough time into it.

I wouldn't say that's quite the best, because I think games using that system should let you set the number of credits in the options menu after unlocking a higher capacity. A new player might clear Castle of Shikigami II after getting, say, 8 credits, and maybe want to replay the game with a lower amount. It's easier to set that limit before starting the game, when you have to stick with it, than to run through your self-imposed limit and resist putting in just one more.

Some achievements like "clear the game with the credit limit set to 4," "clear the game with the credit limit set to 2," and so on, with appropriate titles, could also provide the budding player motivation to push himself.

[pegboy]

As far as balancing the use of continues, I think Gradius V (and Gaiden?) does it the best in that it rewards you with more and more continues the longer you play the game. Eventually you can unlock infinite continues but it takes like 20 hours of playing it to reach that point, so you have to put some time into the game before you earn it. So even really bad players can experience the entire game as long as they put enough time into it.

I wouldn't say that's quite the best, because I think games using that system should let you set the number of credits in the options menu after unlocking a higher capacity. A new player might clear Castle of Shikigami II after getting, say, 8 credits, and maybe want to replay the game with a lower amount. It's easier to set that limit before starting the game, when you have to stick with it, than to run through your self-imposed limit and resist putting in just one more.

Some achievements like "clear the game with the credit limit set to 4," "clear the game with the credit limit set to 2," and so on, with appropriate titles, could also provide the budding player motivation to push himself.

Yeah, I suppose once you've unlocked a certain number of continues you should be allowed to modify it to your own liking. Most SHMUPs let you do this with lives already, so I don't see why they couldn't add a similar control for continues.

[LordHypnos]

Only MoF, SA, UFO forced you back to the beginning of the stage. Every other one let you continue right from where you were, though you had limited continues preMoF but I think it's unlimited after UFO.

Oh. haha. I guess that shows how little 2hu I've played (and mostly MoF)
I kind of like it though, as a system. It would force people playing to see the end to at least get a little better, and it's a little bit more helpful, IMO, for practicing (at least in conjunction with the stage practice that MoF also includes). On the other hand, I think it should unlock stage practice for getting to a stage, not for clearing it, but I digress.

Some achievements like "clear the game with the credit limit set to 4," "clear the game with the credit limit set to 2," and so on, with appropriate titles, could also provide the budding player motivation to push himself.

I kind of like this idea, although I'm sure it would still be pretty limited in helping people to understand shmups or appealing to casuals. Do any X360 shmups implement this?

[Despatche]

But having infinite continues I believe destroys your potential market as much as taking continues away completely.

the very existence of continues is what causes the problem. basically, the genre needs to be "reintroduced" to people.

When two people are in the same position, both staring at a brick wall, there is no need to elaborate on why they are facing the wrong way.

you're seeing "no continues" and you're overreacting like crazy. continues only allow two things: 1. more money and the reinforcement of the complete removal of challenge; 2. stage select.

number 1 is a dual-edged sword that only makes sense in the arcades. having even limited continues is silly because why are you even given lives in the first place? number 2 is easily solved by... having a stage select. hell, most arcade games really should have a stage select in their test menus or even by a code, and they don't because lol.

as a concept, continues are terrible and make no sense to anyone except the arcade operator who needs your money. there is no point in trying to "encourage" the player to use less and less continues because there is only a slippery slope, never mind that they do not see themselves as "players" of a "game". dark souls changed that.

For the "get rid of continues" argument, I'd say it really doesn't matter. If you get rid of continues "it's impossible". Have them "it's too easy". You're damned if you do, damned if you do.

the point is reinforcement. you have to get people to understand that these games should be treated like sports and that there are specific rules to follow. again, the existence of dark souls is proof that this works.

[Lord Satori]

Getting butthurt over a review shouldn't warrant wanting to rewrite every single game of a genre.

There's more to a shmup than what happens when you run out of lives, and anyone who can't see past that, including you as well as the reviewers, shouldn't be analysing them for how we can "appeal to a massive audience". Sine Mora appeals to a massive audience, but nobody here seems to like it, are you saying a game like that is better?

By the way, one metaphor an overreaction does not make.

[ACSeraph]

I've said it before in here but this problem really isn't difficult to solve. Keep infinite continues for the sake of practice and to give noobs a chance, but change the way they work. Continues should not be instant respawns, they should essentially function like the "restart" option found in most modern shmups. This would address basically all the issues reviewers have with the games aside from their own shitty taste, and actually be useful for teaching people how to play correctly.

No continues is bad design, and instant infinite respawns is also bad design so you need something in the middle. In most non-shmup games when you die you are sent back to the last save point to try again, and that gives the illusion of challenge and progression to average players. Basically it's teaching you how to beat that small portion of the game without telling you to fuck off and start over from the very beginning again, but still forcing you to learn to clear without dying. If Ninja Gaiden erased your save when you died that would be fucking stupid, and if the opposite happened and Ryu just stood his ass back up right after getting killed with the only penalty being an F rank at the end of the stage, that would be derp as hell too. I guarantee you reviewers would rip it apart if it were designed either of those ways. This is how average gamers view it, because that is the style of gameplay they are used to. It isn't even as simple as them not being hardcore enough for shmups, it's that shmups are badly designed for normal-people styles of play, and they really don't have to be.

[Blackbird]

The problem with the 1CC expectation is that it is ultimately a house-rule insinuated (but not always explicitly stated) by both developers and players. It is not enforced by the actual rules/mechanics of many games. A player who is either ignorant or chooses to disregard the convention plays the game in an unintended way, and makes the game significantly less enjoyable for themselves as a result. It is a problem that the game allows you to play in an unintended way in the first place; a game shouldn't allow you to unintentionally kill your fun. As a player that was new to arcade games, I did not even know that 1CC was the correct way to play a shooting game until I began frequenting this forum a few years back.

It's like a platformer where there is a pit trap in the first level. Most of the time, you avoid the pit because you expect that it will kill you, but one time you fall in and discover that it unlocks all the story cinematics and shortcuts directly to the end of the game. After that, what point is there to playing through the rest? Sure, you've reached the ending of the game and seen everything, but by shortcutting, you've robbed yourself of the enjoyment of actually getting there. Shmups that allow continues have basically put that pit trap in their game and officially endorsed it as a feature instead of a bug.

Personally, I think the best compromise between casual difficulty and expert challenge would be Jamestown's implementation of difficulty. Stage selection, a credit to clear each stage, and if you want to really challenge yourself for a traditional 1CC, a credit to clear every stage back to back. Conveniently, the ability to practice individual stages prepares you to complete "The Gauntlet". Continues can be reduced or even removed entirely that way without making the game "impossible".

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, a lot of people sure don't know how to play the games "properly." So much is predicated on knowledge, but somehow arcade games were popular for years. It seems just to be a more recent thing that with the Internet people decided to play badly and not search out any sources of info on games.

[mastermx]

I think what Ikaruga done was good. It implemented a system whereby if you don't play with default settings and continues set to off, you can't take part in the online leaderboard.

EDIT: Talking about the steam version, haven't tried the others.

[Despatche]

Getting butthurt over a review shouldn't warrant wanting to rewrite every single game of a genre.

There's more to a shmup than what happens when you run out of lives, and anyone who can't see past that, including you as well as the reviewers, shouldn't be analysing them for how we can "appeal to a massive audience". Sine Mora appeals to a massive audience, but nobody here seems to like it, are you saying a game like that is better?

i don't care about any particular review, i care about the bandwagon that continues have helped to cultivate, which is a very large part of why this genre is dead.

the second part of your post doesn't even begin to make sense. no, to many people, there is nothing more to a shmup than continuing and getting a fresh new set of lives, because continues make lives worthless; we have to change this. no, i'm not concerned with making them "appeal to a massive audience", because that is what has gotten us into this mess in the first place. finally, sine mora has absolutely nothing to do with anything ever, seriously.

No continues is bad design

the sad thing is that your entire post can be broken down into the above. how could no continues possibly be bad design? i don't think people understand that continues completely defeat the purpose of every single other resource. i really don't think people understand what "normal people playstyles" actually are, and where they actually come from; mindless bandwagons. you've got to overwrite those bandwagons the same way they were written in. you've got to inject spirit into people, because they have none themselves.

The problem with the 1CC expectation is that it is ultimately a house-rule insinuated (but not always explicitly stated) by both developers and players. It is not enforced by the actual rules/mechanics of many games.

that doesn't even begin to make sense; such logic demands that you eventually break everything down into such house rules.

it was never a house rule to begin with. if anything, these continues were a house rule, since they were introduced later.

and if reseting the score doesn't count as an actual mechanic, go back to point 1.

Personally, I think the best compromise between casual difficulty and expert challenge would be Jamestown's implementation of difficulty. Stage selection, a credit to clear each stage, and if you want to really challenge yourself for a traditional 1CC, a credit to clear every stage back to back. Conveniently, the ability to practice individual stages prepares you to complete "The Gauntlet". Continues can be reduced or even removed entirely that way without making the game "impossible".

this is pretty much the same thing as the ideal, just that priorities have been reordered a bit. i've thought of it myself, and it might be the best option... but you've still got to do this whole orientation process, because people don't really "get" it.

Well, a lot of people sure don't know how to play the games "properly." So much is predicated on knowledge, but somehow arcade games were popular for years. It seems just to be a more recent thing that with the Internet people decided to play badly and not search out any sources of info on games.

here is the problem, stated fairly clearly! people don't really understand how the genre works. we have got to reintroduce it, to advertise how it works, to hide nothing, and above all to convince people that it should be a challenge to practice for and overcome like a sport. the path we are on currently does little to achieve this goal.

I think what Ikaruga done was good. It implemented a system whereby if you don't play with default settings and continues set to off, you can't take part in the online leaderboard.

EDIT: Talking about the steam version, haven't tried the others.

this seems good in theory, but the problem is that the correct rules are not being reinforced on a personal level; it's really the equivalent of "bad sportsmanship". you've got to get people to understand that this isn't monopoly, it's chess. [insert "monopoly can be serious too!!!!" here]

[ACSeraph]

No continues is bad design

the sad thing is that your entire post can be broken down into the above. how could no continues possibly be bad design? i don't think people understand that continues completely defeat the purpose of every single other resource. i really don't think people understand what "normal people playstyles" actually are, and where they actually come from; mindless bandwagons. you've got to overwrite those bandwagons the same way they were written in. you've got to inject spirit into people, because they have none themselves.

There's more to my post than that, if you actually read it. I'm offering a solution that keeps everyone happy. The only thing that will happen if you remove continues entirely is you will put the genre that much closer to the grave. You won't be reeducating people about the 1cc policies that all of us follow, because there won't be anyone to reeducate.

This isn't hard, give stage restart continues to help people learn the game, then give them a big fat "Let's no continues!" screen instead of the ending when they finish it. Problem solved, everyone can play the game, but it's clear they didn't actually beat it and should keep playing towards a 1cc. Even better, the stage restart continue system will have already gone a long way towards preparing them for the true 1cc when they are ready to tackle it.

[pegboy]

Removing continues, easy modes, and other features that entice new players is just going to beat the lifeless SHMUP corpse into the ground even more. You need to get new players into the genre first, and hopefully they stick around long enough to care about playing and finishing these games "the real way". These games are hard enough as is, no need to force people into playing them the "hardcore" way and alienate them right off the bat.

[near_miss]

Whaaaat really. No continues?

I grew up in the arcade generation. And rich kids able continue their way to the end of every game was just a fact of life. That didn't make the game worse. That made things all the more sweeter of having the skill to need less money. That circumstance existed then, and although it might have "robbed a game of it's enjoyment" it didn't kill the genre. The difference now, is instead of physical currency, it's pride.

I credit feed through games when I'm in the honey moon phase of a new game. The games that take hold of me, I slowly ween myself off of credits -- because it's more fun that way. That's the organic way of playing a game - you die less and less, this is the progression, without even thinking about what's happening it's happening. Sometimes I'll still play an extra credit - but the score suffers for it. It's nice to have that option though, as if I were in an arcade. So I think that the design is already intact. Score resets or a stigma of +1 point per credit is enough for me to want to get better.

Really, the honor is in the heart of the gamer. And in every genre, there will be people who connect more than others, but adding rules, adding restrictions - limitations -- do you really think that's going to attract more people? I would think it would cause many people to give up sooner. It's the same either way, a person credit feeds their way through, gets bored, or can't pass the third level, gets bored, moves on. But in both cases, a percentage of the population exists (here) who do get the thrill of a 1cc.

And of course I'm not saying people should be rewarded for continuing - but alternately seeking a 1cc already exists as it's own reward. I did not come to this genre with that intention, it's something that was slowly revealed to me through the joy of playing.

I don't think imposing more rules/creative restrictions will get people who are already uninterested/easily distracted to care any more. If everybody liked everything, the world would be a very boring place.

All this genre needs is creativity and passion to "continue"

[endoKarb]

Well put, near_miss.

It is really that "1 credit no continues" mentality that is harming the genre big time, with people compulsively restarting over and over and beating themselves up instead of playing the goddamn games.
But what can you do.

[Doctor Butler]

Whaaaat really. No continues?

I grew up in the arcade generation. And rich kids able continue their way to the end of every game was just a fact of life. That didn't make the game worse. That made things all the more sweeter of having the skill to need less money. That circumstance existed then, and although it might have "robbed a game of it's enjoyment" it didn't kill the genre. The difference now, is instead of physical currency, it's pride.

I credit feed through games when I'm in the honey moon phase of a new game. The games that take hold of me, I slowly ween myself off of credits -- because it's more fun that way. That's the organic way of playing a game - you die less and less, this is the progression, without even thinking about what's happening it's happening. Sometimes I'll still play an extra credit - but the score suffers for it. It's nice to have that option though, as if I were in an arcade. So I think that the design is already intact. Score resets or a stigma of +1 point per credit is enough for me to want to get better.

Really, the honor is in the heart of the gamer. And in every genre, there will be people who connect more than others, but adding rules, adding restrictions - limitations -- do you really think that's going to attract more people? I would think it would cause many people to give up sooner. It's the same either way, a person credit feeds their way through, gets bored, or can't pass the third level, gets bored, moves on. But in both cases, a percentage of the population exists (here) who do get the thrill of a 1cc.

And of course I'm not saying people should be rewarded for continuing - but alternately seeking a 1cc already exists as it's own reward. I did not come to this genre with that intention, it's something that was slowly revealed to me through the joy of playing.

I don't think imposing more rules/creative restrictions will get people who are already uninterested/easily distracted to care any more. If everybody liked everything, the world would be a very boring place.

All this genre needs is creativity and passion to "continue"

[Volteccer_Jack]

Removing continues, easy modes, and other features that entice new players is just going to beat the lifeless SHMUP corpse into the ground even more. You need to get new players into the genre first, and hopefully they stick around long enough to care about playing and finishing these games "the real way". These games are hard enough as is, no need to force people into playing them the "hardcore" way and alienate them right off the bat.

There's nothing wrong with Easy modes or things like that (I like easy mode because I suck ). But there's a big difference between Easy mode and continuing. Continuing devalues in-game resources, lives obviously but also other things like bombs or those free huge powerups when you start a new credit. More importantly, continuing devalues the game itself: nobody playing on Easy mode has any illusions about the fact that they're playing with training wheels, but there's this insane idea that credit-feeding to the end of the game is a legitimate way to play, when really it's equivalent to IDDQD.

[pegboy]

Removing continues, easy modes, and other features that entice new players is just going to beat the lifeless SHMUP corpse into the ground even more. You need to get new players into the genre first, and hopefully they stick around long enough to care about playing and finishing these games "the real way". These games are hard enough as is, no need to force people into playing them the "hardcore" way and alienate them right off the bat.

There's nothing wrong with Easy modes or things like that (I like easy mode because I suck ). But there's a big difference between Easy mode and continuing. Continuing devalues in-game resources, lives obviously but also other things like bombs or those free huge powerups when you start a new credit. More importantly, continuing devalues the game itself: nobody playing on Easy mode has any illusions about the fact that they're playing with training wheels, but there's this insane idea that credit-feeding to the end of the game is a legitimate way to play, when really it's equivalent to IDDQD.

Easy mode, more continues, extra lives aren't all equal levels of "cheating" for every game. Beating certain games on the hardest setting and using a continue or two is far more impressive to me than beating a game on easy mode. It all depends on the game.

[Squire Grooktook]

A big part of that though is that many people see beating the game after continuing to not be a "real" clear due to the score reset (among other things). It might be a more impressive display of skill, but I think it still may not count as "beating the game" to some extent. Kinda. Maybe. I dunno.