Questions that do not deserve a thread

[Syntax]

So you have to cut the composite trace to get rid of potential jailbars? Using fully-shielded high quality RGB CSync cables won't get rid of jailbars?

Correct. The interference happens on the board of the Genesis itself, so no amount of healthy cabling will fix it. I did make a mod board that reroutes the subcarrier signal away from the RGB lines, but it still requires cutting that trace. There's just no getting around that unless you completely bypass the CXA chip entirely. Even then I bet trace cutting might still be required.

I have a model 2 VA0 that ive cut the rgb lines entirely, and shielded cabled from the cpu to a RGB bypass, and a heap of other crap and still get jailbars via OSSC.

Subcarrier cut is next but its a clean run on the model 2's. Starting to think its my cable.

[jayde6]

If it's a USA model, it should get rid of them. However, you must cut near the VDP side of the trace for it to work, because the trace itself is what is causing the jail bar interference. On the underside of the board, I cut just after the via that goes to pin 50 of the VDP.

Sorry to keep asking questions, however I've recounted and it doesn't look like pin 50 has a trace to cut. This is new territory for me so I'm sure it's an error on my part, just want to be sure before actually cutting anything. You start counting from the corner with the circle indicator right?

Here's what I'm looking at with 50 marked and where it would be on the underside,
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eqarwxrkind49az/va4.jpg?dl=0

[FBX]

Looks different than the ones I have done.

Here's the VA2 trace cut:



And here's the VA3 trace cut in the same area (trace is thicker, but still in same spot):




If you can get a clear photograph of the underside traces around the CXA encoder chip, we can find out where the trace is routed.

[jayde6]

If you can get a clear photograph of the underside traces around the CXA encoder chip, we can find out where the trace is routed.

Thanks for helping me out with this,
the link includes the underside cxa close up as well as full underside and top.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yxu2am30n251 ... VVPIa?dl=0

[FBX]

Thanks for helping me out with this,
the link includes the underside cxa close up as well as full underside and top.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yxu2am30n251 ... VVPIa?dl=0

Seeing the whole board revealed the problem: That's not a model 1 Genesis. That's a model 2. I've heard the issues with the model 2 and jail bars aren't exactly the same as the model 1. I don't have a model 2 myself, so I can't help on this. Might want to ask Ace over at Sega 16 for advice. Since you do have a model 2, you'll need to get one of those mega amp mods going for the sound. Model 2 consoles are notorious for having crap sound.

[FBX]

Here's some information Ace had concerning the model 2 VA4:

Video encoder:

Sony CXA1645

Composite video quality (no info on RGB quality):

Just like a VA2 or VA2.3 Genesis Model 2 with a CXA1645, the picture is very colorful, very bright and very sharp.

FM Synthesis hardware used:

GOAC Yamaha YM3438

Sound circuitry/sound quality:

A further revised sound circuit on these motherboards produces sound almost as good as a Genesis Model 1 that's got a VA2 to VA6.8 motherboard, but more muffled due to, once again, a second-order low-pass filter. The volume balance problems have been fixed on these motherboards, but the filtering is uneven between FM Synthesis and PSG, resulting in some weird PSG at times.

A note regarding VA4 boards: these use a GOAC YM3438 which has a further modified DAC to make the DAC noise even less apparent than on any other YM3438 variant or the YM2612.

[jayde6]

Seeing the whole board revealed the problem: That's not a model 1 Genesis. That's a model 2. I've heard the issues with the model 2 and jail bars aren't exactly the same as the model 1. I don't have a model 2 myself, so I can't help on this. Might want to ask Ace over at Sega 16 for advice. Since you do have a model 2, you'll need to get one of those mega amp mods going for the sound. Model 2 consoles are notorious for having crap sound.

Yeah, that's my fault, I forgot that they used the same revision numbers for both genesis 1 and 2 instead of one continuous series of numbers. Thanks for the info on the hardware and for taking the time to look into it for me.

[Kez]

Will PAL games run borderless at the same speed as NTSC games if playing them on an NTSC console (with a cartridge adapter or Everdrive)?

On the Mega Drive, yes. But a lot of (newer) games are also region-locked, so if your console is not the correct region they will not start from the original cartridge. If using an Everdrive on an NTSC console, play the NTSC version where possible. Some of the PAL exclusive games also have 60hz patches (e.g. Alien Soldier).

Occasionally you will come across PAL-optimized games that will behave strangely if run at 60hz (e.g. Alien Soldier - hence the patch).

Note the Mega Drive region mod is fairly cheap and simple, and it allows the console to play all games (Japanese games would need an adapter though I believe).

[Ikaruga11]

Can Sony BVMs output Limited Range RGB (16-235)? I want play my Wii U on a Sony BVM and would like to know if they can display Limited Range RGB since that's what the Wii U outputs and using Full Range RGB (0-255) will results in washed out colors and poor black levels.

[Einzelherz]

If you calibrate it that way.

[Fudoh]

Can Sony BVMs output Limited Range RGB (16-235)? I want play my Wii U on a Sony BVM and would like to know if they can display Limited Range RGB since that's what the Wii U outputs and using Full Range RGB (0-255) will results in washed out colors and poor black levels.

limited range RGB is a digital phenomenon. A proper converter would eliminate the blacklevel offset before converting to an analogue output. And if you're using native component from a WiiU you should see no difference from any other component signal in terms of calibration requirements.

[Larrs888]

I know there is some recent discussion in this thread around the Sega Genesis/MD RGB output. I own a Japanese VA6, it produces very nice sound but the image is ruined by horrific jail bars. I think the trace cut only works properly on early USA consoles, does anyone know if there are any updates on the RGB bypass amps are being worked, I think DB electronics and Voultar were going to release something?

Thanks

[Fudoh]

I think the trace cut only works properly on early USA consoles

no, this works perfectly fine on all japanese MD1 models. You simply disconnect the VDP Pin 50 from the mainboard.

[Ikaruga11]

Can Sony BVMs output Limited Range RGB (16-235)? I want play my Wii U on a Sony BVM and would like to know if they can display Limited Range RGB since that's what the Wii U outputs and using Full Range RGB (0-255) will results in washed out colors and poor black levels.

limited range RGB is a digital phenomenon. A proper converter would eliminate the blacklevel offset before converting to an analogue output. And if you're using native component from a WiiU you should see no difference from any other component signal in terms of calibration requirements.

Well, I want to output 720p on the Wii U using HDMI and convert it to SDI for the BVM. I don't want any information loss, noise or interference in the cable chain, which is why I'm opting for using a digital signal. Just wondering if BVM CRTs did Limited Range RGB in addition to Full Range RGB.

Computer monitors typically only do Full Range RGB, but my
Televisions typically only do Limited Range RGB

[Xer Xian]

SDI is only used in the broadcast industry, where the 'legal' data range at 8bit color depth is (or should be) 16-235 in compliance with the Rec.601 and 709 standards. Therefore any decent transcoder should be able to correctly convert the WiiU signal and your BVM should display it at full range if correctly calibrated on its SDI input (and color space/matrix match between converter and BVM settings).

[bobrocks95]

Can Sony BVMs output Limited Range RGB (16-235)? I want play my Wii U on a Sony BVM and would like to know if they can display Limited Range RGB since that's what the Wii U outputs and using Full Range RGB (0-255) will results in washed out colors and poor black levels.

limited range RGB is a digital phenomenon. A proper converter would eliminate the blacklevel offset before converting to an analogue output. And if you're using native component from a WiiU you should see no difference from any other component signal in terms of calibration requirements.

Well, I want to output 720p on the Wii U using HDMI and convert it to SDI for the BVM. I don't want any information loss, noise or interference in the cable chain, which is why I'm opting for using a digital signal. Just wondering if BVM CRTs did Limited Range RGB in addition to Full Range RGB.

Computer monitors typically only do Full Range RGB, but my
Televisions typically only do Limited Range RGB

You know SDI is 480i only right? Unless you have an HD-SDI input.

Also according to Wikipedia SDI data is transmitted as 4:2:2 YCbCr, so it's not exactly lossless.

[Ikaruga11]

SDI is only used in the broadcast industry, where the 'legal' data range at 8bit color depth is (or should be) 16-235 in compliance with the Rec.601 and 709 standards. Therefore any decent transcoder should be able to correctly convert the WiiU signal and your BVM should display it at full range if correctly calibrated on its SDI input (and color space/matrix match between converter and BVM settings).

Ah okay. Isn't YPbPr a 4:2:2 color space, where as RGB is a 4:4:4 color space? So Component/YPbPr/YCbCr is a Limited Range signal (16-235) by default? So it'll work perfectly with the Wii U?

You know SDI is 480i only right? Unless you have an HD-SDI input.

Also according to Wikipedia SDI data is transmitted as 4:2:2 YCbCr, so it's not exactly lossless.

I meant HD-SDI, yeah. I have a Sony BKM-42HD HD-SDI / YPbPr Input Card. And once I purchase an AJA HDMI -> HD-SDI converter, I can hook up HDMI systems to the BVM via HD-SDI input.

Well, YCbCr is the digital form of YPbPr. So it's better for me to start digital and potentially stay digital than to start YPbPr -> converted to YCbCr -> possibly back to YPbPr again if BVMs can't output a digital image.

[Xer Xian]

Ah okay. Isn't YPbPr a 4:2:2 color space, where as RGB is a 4:4:4 color space? So Component/YPbPr/YCbCr is a Limited Range signal (16-235) by default? So it'll work perfectly with the Wii U?

YPbPr is a way of encoding/compressing video signals. RGB is better though of as an additive color model which does not define what red, green and blue are per se. Once you define that, you have an actual color space. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_spa ... olor_space

Anyway, Bobrocks is right, the old SDI and HD-SDI standards were defined with halved color resolution (4:2:2). This is taken from the BVM D-series manual:



All those SMPTE standards work with 4:2:2 YCbCr. You will have a very hard time finding a converter that doesn't subsample colors, since that's a specific condition that they must meet to comply to the standard. And even if were to find one, the BVM might not accept the signal it outputs.

[Fudoh]

in short: unless you have a BVM without an analogue HD input (BVM-A series without the RGB board), there's no reason to go for SDI. If you have a HDMI only source, you're still better off converting to analogue RGB or component instead to SDI.

[Ikaruga11]

So basically, using SDI or HD-SDI will give me worse colors than using RGB or YPbPr? Does that chart mean a BVM outputs RGB on 240p and 480i only, and YPbPr for everything else? And BVMs can't display digital pictures, so all digital signals are converted to analog?

[Xer Xian]

Does that chart mean a BVM outputs RGB on 240p and 480i only, and YPbPr for everything else? And BVMs can't display digital pictures, so all digital signals are converted to analog?

The CRT needs to drive the red, green and blue electron guns, so any signal that isn't in the RGB format needs to be converted to it.

So basically, using SDI or HD-SDI will give me worse colors than using RGB or YPbPr?

Chroma subsampling doesn't actually impact color accuracy, but rather picture sharpness (for more detail, read one of the hundreds of webpages dedicated to this topic). It will be a clear downgrade vs. using the WiiU component output.

There's a later standard that allowed for full 4:4:4 resolution over SDI. It's the SMPTE 372M standard which works over dual-link HD-SDI. The D-series BVM's do not support this signal. Only the A-series BVM's will support it (with the correct input card): http://www.ptsys.ru/tech_info/files/Sony/pts_BVM-A.pdf

[Ikaruga11]

The CRT needs to drive the red, green and blue electron guns, so any signal that isn't in the RGB format needs to be converted to it.

So CRT BVMs can't display a digital image. They can accept digital signals, but convert them to analog in order to display an image?

Chroma subsampling doesn't actually impact color accuracy, but rather picture sharpness (for more detail, read one of the hundreds of webpages dedicated to this topic). It will be a clear downgrade vs. using the WiiU component output.

So you're saying that a component cable will actually give me a sharper image than an HDMI cable? Component cables are analogue though, and thus prone to information loss and noise/interference. Plus HDMI can do digital RGB, not just digital YPbPr (YCbCr). Component cables can only do YPbPr.

There's a later standard that allowed for full 4:4:4 resolution over SDI. It's the SMPTE 372M standard which works over dual-link HD-SDI. The D-series BVM's do not support this signal. Only the A-series BVM's will support it (with the correct input card): http://www.ptsys.ru/tech_info/files/Sony/pts_BVM-A.pdf

Dang. I would have got an A-series BVM if I had known this earlier. The A-series BVMs also use newer parts and have much lower hours of usage as well. The only reason I refrained from buying one is because I heard they don't have a VCR Mode and thus have sync issues with certain consoles like the Sega Master System and the SNK NEOGEO AES. I think it was Bob from RetroRGB that mentioned this?

http://retrorgb.com/bkm-68x.html
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=57929&start=60
https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... _vs_bvm_a/

[Fudoh]

So CRT BVMs can't display a digital image. They can accept digital signals, but convert them to analog in order to display an image?

that's right.

So you're saying that a component cable will actually give me a sharper image than an HDMI cable? Component cables are analogue though, and thus prone to information loss and noise/interference. Plus HDMI can do digital RGB, not just digital YPbPr (YCbCr). Component cables can only do YPbPr.

HDMI can do RGB 4:4:4 oder YCbCr 4:4:4, but on your BVM you're limited to SDI which cuts down the color resolution on both channels by 50%.

[Ikaruga11]

So CRT BVMs can't display a digital image. They can accept digital signals, but convert them to analog in order to display an image?

that's right.

So you're saying that a component cable will actually give me a sharper image than an HDMI cable? Component cables are analogue though, and thus prone to information loss and noise/interference. Plus HDMI can do digital RGB, not just digital YPbPr (YCbCr). Component cables can only do YPbPr.

HDMI can do RGB 4:4:4 oder YCbCr 4:4:4, but on your BVM you're limited to SDI which cuts down the color resolution on both channels by 50%.

So a component cable into the 42HD's YPbPr input is better than an HDMI into the 42HD's YPbPr input? SDI and HD-SDI both have 50% of the color resolution on a D-series BVM.

Also, does Retro_Console_Accessories and Retro Gaming Cables make BNC cables that plug directly into your consoles, or RCA/SCART-to-BNC cables?

[Fudoh]

So a component cable into the 42HD's YPbPr input is better than an HDMI into the 42HD's YPbPr input? SDI and HD-SDI both have 50% of the color resolution on a D-series BVM.

4:2:2 signals have half the horizontal color resolution, so - for example - a 720p signal has 1280 pixels of horizontal luma resolution, but only 640 pixels of horizontal color resolution. The difference is visible, but as usual, many people won't see it. Still, if you want the BEST solution, then you should take a path that doesn't down convert your source's output signal. Assuming that your source has identical YPbPr and HDMI quality, then yes, a BVM (with excellent handling of analogue signals) will have better quality using the YPbPr inputs.

Regarding your sources: in a PS3 for example the component output is considerably softer than the HDMI output of the same resolution, so it probably wouldn't matter very much when using a PS3 as your source. Compressed video sources (like Blu-Ray) are 4:2:0 to start with, so here of course it doesn't matter either.

[Einzelherz]

At least this thread is entertaining now.

[Ikaruga11]

So a component cable into the 42HD's YPbPr input is better than an HDMI into the 42HD's YPbPr input? SDI and HD-SDI both have 50% of the color resolution on a D-series BVM.

4:2:2 signals have half the horizontal color resolution, so - for example - a 720p signal has 1280 pixels of horizontal luma resolution, but only 640 pixels of horizontal color resolution. The difference is visible, but as usual, many people won't see it. Still, if you want the BEST solution, then you should take a path that doesn't down convert your source's output signal. Assuming that your source has identical YPbPr and HDMI quality, then yes, a BVM (with excellent handling of analogue signals) will have better quality using the YPbPr inputs.

Regarding your sources: in a PS3 for example the component output is considerably softer than the HDMI output of the same resolution, so it probably wouldn't matter very much when using a PS3 as your source. Compressed video sources (like Blu-Ray) are 4:2:0 to start with, so here of course it doesn't matter either.

Honestly, I don't know. Phatnightmares uses HDMI -> HD SDI for the PS3 on his Sony BVM-D24E1WU, and so does Bob from RetroRGB on his Sony BVM-D32E1WU.

If you have an RGB monitor that supports 720p and HD SDi, you can use an HDMI to HD SDi converter to play games in the highest quality on your monitor. I've played many games in 720p on my 32", 16:9 Sony BVM-D32E1WU

http://www.retrorgb.com/playstation.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmMhQ3vLuSQ

[Xer Xian]

While there's a possibility that 4:4:4 480p or 1080i may be possible (remains to be seen whether they will be sampled correctly by the BVM's SDI board), I think that 4:4:4 720p simply exceeds the bandwidth limitation of single-link HD-SDI which makes it a complete no-go. This is just a feeling, I'm not an expert, and for such technical matters you'd be better off asking a broadcast engineer.

Otherwise, you know, just use analog signals like 99.99% of retro-gamers. Give them a try on your BVM and let's see if you come back disappointed.

[braves01]

Anyone have a current link to a site that sells reliable CPS2 batteries and CPS2 replacement/quiet fans (preferably ones that are plug and play and don't require re-wiring)? Most of the links I come across are dead or go to a home page and I'm not sure what parts are appropriate. Thanks!

[Ikaruga11]

I went back and re-read everything to digest the information better. I think I understand now. The BVM-D series was designed primarily with analog signals in mind, with optional Single Link (4:2:2) SDI and HD-HDI expansion boards available for digital signals. Starting with the BVM-A series, digital became the standard for signal output, hence why the BKM-68X analog board isn't included and is extremely expensive and rare. The A-series BVMs can do 4:4:4 with all resolutions using Dual Link HD-SDI except 720p60/50. https://archive.org/stream/sony_BVM-A_s ... 3/mode/2up

Then you have Sony's CineAlta F24U BVM, which is digital-only and only does 1080p60/50, 1080i60/30, 1080p24m 108024PsF, etc. and 720p60. All of these signals can be transmitted as 4:4:4 using Dual Link HD-SDI, except for 1080p60, which is 4:2:2 likely due to exceeding bandwidth.

http://www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/model ... bvmf24.pdf (HD-SDI Input and Display Available Signal Formats | Page 10)

Anyway, I think the reason Bob and Phatnightmares both use HD-SDI for HDMI consoles on their BVM-Ds is because they believe what I originally thought. That HD-SDI is a lossless, uncompressed digital 4:4:4 signal. Which it is, but not on the D series, and only partially on the A series. Even the F24 cannot do 4:4:4 on it's highest resolution, 1080p60. I think I'll hook up HDMI consoles to the RGB/YPbPr inputs on the BKM-41/42HD and the BKM-48X expansion boards, which are the only boards that can do HD resolutions over an analog signal.
http://broadcaststore.com/pdf/model/22107/22107.pdf (Input Decorder and Expansion Board Configurations | Page 7)

So my questions are:
1) When you say Bluray is 4:2:0, is that just movies/TV shows on Bluray, or does that mean everything on Bluray, including video games?
2) Along with Bluray, what other video content is 4:2:2 or less?
3) Does SDI or HD-SDI have input lag?
4) How much input lag do you get from converting HDMI to RGB/YPbPr?