XRGB-mini Framemeister

[eightbitminiboss]

I split my signal after the Frameister so that I have a feed going directly to the TV and the other to my XCAPTURE-1.

[blizzz]

I've got a Micomsoft SC-500N1 for RGB captures already. But the Framemeister would simplify the whole setup and give me a tiny bit better quality as Fudoh pointed out. So instead of using a Scart distributor and SC-500N1 for retro games, I could use the Elgato HD (or SC-500N1) for everything with a simple HDMI cable.

But I would also love to play retro games on my LCD TV. Can't really do that at the moment without emulators. I did some audio comparisons between a real console and the Wii VC on a CRT just now. It seems that the Wii VC has ~20ms delay compared to the original games. So if I play Wii VC on my LCD TV, it should be very close to playing on a real console through the Framemeister with its 25ms delay.

The good news is that I'm fine with the Wii Virtual Console. The bad news is that Retroarch on the Wii is already unplayable for me. I measured ~40ms delay for Retroarch. So there's a very distinct line between 20ms and 40ms (plus the 30ms of my TV) that makes the games either fun or laggy. I'm also sure that my input lag tests are rather unreliable.

I guess my only option is to order a Framemeister and if it's too laggy either sell it on eBay or buy a new TV

[BuckoA51]

You might want to try the XRGB3 and DVDO Edge combo. DVDO Edges have been falling in price pretty rapidly recently, so I guess the biggest problem would be tracking down an XRGB3.

[marqs]

With all the Framemeister capturing hype recently I've starting thinking about buying one again

But there's still the one problem that stopped me from buying it years ago. The input lag.
Was there any improvement for 240p signals with the recent firmwares? My current TV (Sony KDL40EX655) was tested for around 30ms of input lag. I don't think it would be fun to play at 50+ ms, especially when I'm used to my CRT.

I also don't think I could justify buying a 350€ device just to improve my capture quality by a tiny bit if I can't use it on my TV

Edit: Maybe I could simulate a Framemeister by using an official Wii emulator and a lag-free component to HDMI transcoder. Are the Wii emulators in the same delay range as the Framemeister?

Haven't measured with the newest firmware, but I'm fairly sure it's the same. I think the main issue is that Framemeister's processing is frame-based (i.e. it buffers one frame before processing, two with interlaced content).

Speaking of this, I've been thinking for some time of building a simple DIY video processor from video digitizer IC, FPGA and HDMI transmitter. It'd use scanline-based processing (linedouble/triple/quadruple) to minimize lag and simplify implementation (I'm also considering horizontal sampling based on output width instead of a constant value such as 720). Besides the lag, other things I'm not completely happy with Framemeister include 240p<->480i switching and inconsistent black level with different sources. Even with its limitations and bugs, I still think Framemeister is a very good 240p processor, but I'm curious to try how far it's possible to get with a homemade system . I'll post updates if/when I have the prototype running.

[brownvim]

You might want to try the XRGB3 and DVDO Edge combo. DVDO Edges have been falling in price pretty rapidly recently, so I guess the biggest problem would be tracking down an XRGB3.

XRGB3 isn't a problem to buy brand new. Just get in touch with the guy selling Framemeisters from Japan on the assembler forums. He got me mine and shipped within a week.

In B1 mode on a super low lag monitor is the closest CRT feeling you will get.

Is there a line tripler? Or is that a dumb question.

[BuckoA51]

Is there a line tripler? Or is that a dumb question.

There's nothing like that no, but it hardly matters since virtually all monitors can upscale 480p just fine.

[blizzz]

I got my yearly power bill and for the first time they're lowering my monthly rate and they even give me money back. I take that as a sign that I should spend some money on the Framemeister

Thanks for suggesting the XRGB3 & DVDO Edge combo, Bucko. I've looked into it, but I think the Framemeister is overall the better solution.

So, before I order it I want to find out what else I need. I'll order the XRGB mini (plus component adapter) from Solaris Japan for their 6 month warranty and insured shipping.

For the power supply I have found a few choices:

• Cheap fixed 5V 2500mA adapter Amazon
• Variable power supply of a brand I trust, 2250mA Amazon
• 3000mA supply of another known brand Conrad

I also heard that you can just use the power supply from an old PSP, but that one is only rated for 2.0A. The XRGB mini comes with a 2.3A supply.

Next, the SCART adapter:

• simple adapter from retro_console_accessories eBay
• powered sync stripper adapter from retro_console_accessories eBay
• simple adapter from retrogamingcables retrogamingcables.co.uk

retro_console_accessories ships from the US, so shipping time will be around 4 weeks (± 3 weeks) and I have to pay 19% taxes extra for the sync stripper adapter. Is the adapter from retrogamingcables just as good, or is there maybe another good source in Germany / Europe?

At the moment I'm tending towards the first option of both lists, but I would like to hear what you're using with the Framemeister
I will be mostly using it for Nintendo and Sony consoles from the 15kHz era.

[Fudoh]

At the moment I'm tending towards the first option of both lists

I'd suggest the #1 PSU and the #3 adapter. As mentioned before I currently don't need a sync stripper on any of my sources.

[airs]

At the moment I'm tending towards the first option of both lists

I'd suggest the #1 PSU and the #3 adapter. As mentioned before I currently don't need a sync stripper on any of my sources.

I did some testing recently and found that I need an externally powered stripper for certain cables. Nintendo DOL-013, Sony SCPH-1052. Also, my Omega CMVS seems to need a stripper with the cable they included.

Anyone else have this experience?

[juji82]

I use the dol-013 cable for super famicom and RGB n64 and I don't need a sync stripper cable.

[austin532]

Does anyone else experience burn in when using the Mini for awhile? I'm wondering if it's just my LCD TV going out or if it's actually some weird side effect related to the Mini. (My guess is the TV )

It's immediately noticeable after about 30 min. when playing older games in 4:3 with scanlines on or when there is bright text on the screen.

[pyrotek85]

Does anyone else experience burn in when using the Mini for awhile? I'm wondering if it's just my LCD TV going out or if it's actually some weird side effect related to the Mini. (My guess is the TV )

It's immediately noticeable after about 30 min. when playing older games in 4:3 with scanlines on or when there is bright text on the screen.

None here, not with the black bars on the side or anything else. Sounds like it might be your monitor =/

[austin532]

Yeah, I figured that. It's probably time for an upgrade anyway. It might explain why I feel like I'm not getting 100% out of the Mini as well. It's pushing 5 years old now plus newer TV's have much better upscaling. The thing is most newer TV's are LED based which I believe can create more lag plus they are missing VGA ports.

I currently have a Samsung now and have had no complaints about it until recently. The only negative thing about it is you can't disable the info/resolution banner so every time the signal changes or is interrupted even for a second the banner appears in the top left corner for about 5 seconds. (Very annoying ) Pretty sure Sony TV's don't have this problem.

Also, one more thing. Would a newer TV shorten the HDMI handshake time or is that strictly based off of the Mini's hardware?

[darcagn]

Yeah, that's your display, not the XRGB. I have a plasma and always get burn in when playing RPGs and other types of games with lots of static, non-moving menus. But it's only temporary burn in, if I play something else or put live TV on for a short amount of time it goes away.

[venchia3]

I did some testing recently and found that I need an externally powered stripper for certain cables. Nintendo DOL-013, Sony SCPH-1052. Also, my Omega CMVS seems to need a stripper with the cable they included.

Anyone else have this experience?

I also have an Omega CMVS with their official RGB cable (wired for JP 21-pin) and I believe there is some need for a sync cleaner. I can play just fine 99% of the time, but every now and then I get a blazing fast loss of signal and even more rarely some black out-of-sync screen that lasts 2-3 seconds. So rarely that in fact I didn't bothered until now to order an adapter with sync cleaner

I tried every sync_level from 19 to 29 (because below 19 and above 29 it starts to lose signal) but nothing can fix those small dropouts. Since my rgb cable is japanese wired I obviously use the micomsoft original adapter.

[BuckoA51]

We should maybe change the advice on sync strippers on the wiki. In fact I think I'll go do it now.

[Fudoh]

So, what IS your advice ? Use one if you need one, but IF you do, use one with an external power supply ?

[blizzz]

We should maybe change the advice on sync strippers on the wiki.

Good idea, it's kinda confusing. But I have to admit that I didn't read all 184 pages of this thread.

I ordered the Framemeister + component adapter and the simple SCART adapter from retrogamingcables. I'll pick up a 5V 2.5A power supply in the next days.
If I should have any sync problems I can still order the powered adapter. The simple adapter cost me less than 10€ shipped, so no big loss there.

[EmperorZelos]

We should maybe change the advice on sync strippers on the wiki.

Good idea, it's kinda confusing. But I have to admit that I didn't read all 184 pages of this thread.

I ordered the Framemeister + component adapter and the simple SCART adapter from retrogamingcables. I'll pick up a 5V 2.5A power supply in the next days.
If I should have any sync problems I can still order the powered adapter. The simple adapter cost me less than 10€ shipped, so no big loss there.

I'd strongely recommend the powered stripper if you use any form of switch

[airs]

We should maybe change the advice on sync strippers on the wiki.

Good idea, it's kinda confusing. But I have to admit that I didn't read all 184 pages of this thread.

I ordered the Framemeister + component adapter and the simple SCART adapter from retrogamingcables. I'll pick up a 5V 2.5A power supply in the next days.
If I should have any sync problems I can still order the powered adapter. The simple adapter cost me less than 10€ shipped, so no big loss there.

I'd strongely recommend the powered stripper if you use any form of switch

Yes - with an externally powered stripper and Bandridge switch (manual, not powered), all my consoles (and cables) work.

[CkRtech]

Hooked up the Dreamcast directly to my plasma by connecting the official Sega VGA box to the VGA input on my TV, and it looks....nothing short of absolutely terrible. I am not surprised. The set allows for tweaking the signal a bit on the VGA input, but it looks like the Framemeister route is the way to go.

Side note - sadly, my Dreamcast is a rental unit that I bought used off of ebay around about 2000. It may not be long for this world. I wish the laser had an odometer. The laser and the fan are as loud as anything.

[airs]

The more I read and the more cables and consoles I deal with, the more I think I should

1.) Mod each console to have proper (consistent perhaps is a better term?) output
2.) Cut the scart ends off my cables, terminate them with DB9's
3.) Use a VGA switchbox like the 16 port that the guy who runs retrorgb.com uses

[airs]

Hooked up the Dreamcast directly to my plasma by connecting the official Sega VGA box to the VGA input on my TV, and it looks....nothing short of absolutely terrible. I am not surprised. The set allows for tweaking the signal a bit on the VGA input, but it looks like the Framemeister route is the way to go.

Side note - sadly, my Dreamcast is a rental unit that I bought used off of ebay around about 2000. It may not be long for this world. I wish the laser had an odometer. The laser and the fan are as loud as anything.

I had a similar experience with my old VGA box. Got my Hanzo + Kenzei the other day. Excellent result with the XRGB mini. Did my best to capture it (Hanzo's scanlines enabled, mini's disabled):

[Fudoh]

(1) is a given, if you know how to hold a soldering iron.

[airs]

(1) is a given, if you know how to hold a soldering iron.

Yeah...and have correct information on how to perform each mod. There is a lot of misinformation and incorrect guides out there for almost every console.

[Fudoh]

Yeah...and have correct information on how to perform each mod. There is a lot of misinformation and incorrect guides out there for almost every console.

there are only a few systems on which it makes a difference. On systems which deliver clean sync out of the box, it makes sense to route the sync signal onto the composite video output pin, so your cable doesn't matter anymore. On the Playstations can use Luma instead of composite video. On the MD you have to put a capacitor (and possible a resistor) in line with the sync signal to make it work. I'm pretty sure we had a thread on those mods sometime in the past...

[airs]

Yeah...and have correct information on how to perform each mod. There is a lot of misinformation and incorrect guides out there for almost every console.

there are only a few systems on which it makes a difference. On systems which deliver clean sync out of the box, it makes sense to route the sync signal onto the composite video output pin, so your cable doesn't matter anymore. On the Playstations can use Luma instead of composite video. On the MD you have to put a capacitor (and possible a resistor) in line with the sync signal to make it work. I'm pretty sure we had a thread on those mods sometime in the past...

Okay well maybe that thread is a better place for this (will try to find it) but I'll go ahead here for now:

I'm mostly confused about the SNES Mini and N64 RGB mods. Have you read through this thread? Calpis' posts (#161 and #163 in particular) are mostly over my head but I'm attempting to understand them: http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/sh ... lity-image

Lets say you have an NTSC RGB moddable N64 and a variety of SCART cables, displays, and processors that you want it to be compatible with. How would you perform the RGB mod? THS7314 is the chip I see used in most guides. Would you route CSYNC to pin 3 or pin 9 (or both?) on the AV out (Nintendo's Gamecube SCART cable expects 12V here, but the NTSC consoles have this as CSYNC)? Where would you get CSYNC from and would you correct the signal at all (like in this schematic: link)? Or would you use Luma, cutting the trace to 9 and bridging 7 to 9 (as suggested at the end of the thread above)?

[austin532]

Has anyone figured out how to get the best looking picture for 240p games with 3D polygons from the Saturn, PS1, N64 era? The recommended settings on the Wiki are too sharp and often reveal flaws like squares and black lines were the developer pieced the backgrounds, floors, and walls together as well as the checkerboard screen filters those games often used.

2D games on the other hand from that era look pretty good but not perfect using the recommended settings.

[Fudoh]

With RGB-modable NTSC N64 units the classic transistor RGB amps seem to have the edge over the THS mods.

Using Luma instead of composite video usually solves all the composite video related problems (dropouts, interference, moving wave patterns) while still providing a black/white picture when used on a RGB-incompatible Scart socket. Using C-Sync instead has usually no further advantage.

Cutting the composite line directly on the N64's output (or any other Nintendo system for that matter) and replacing it with a luma (or sync signal), solves all those 12V/CSync problems as well.

On my japanese RGB modded N64 I have to use a RGB cable without capacitors. If you want to use a cable with capacitors (e.g. from your NTSC SNES) then you have adapt your RGB amp accordingly.

[Fudoh]

the Saturn, PS1, N64 era

I doubt that you'll find settings to accomodate your Saturn/Playstation and N64 at the same time. For the N64 I totally prefer 1080p output without scanlines over 720p with scanlines.

If you find your image too sharp, just adjust the H_SCALER setting. 5 is the sharpest setting. Try 10 or 11.

2D games on the other hand from that era look pretty good but not perfect using the recommended settings.

you keep saying that, but you don't say what you dislike.