Prelude to the Apocalypse

[Rob]

Funny, I don't think I've heard a single America-first/Hillary Wants WWIII-er say one word about that particular development in the weeks since it happened.

(1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6), etc. If someone has been marked by either the SPLC or ADL, odds are good they have said a word.

[quash]

Except that the USCIS doesn't issue these (which is what he had) to illegals.

Except that they literally do. In fact, that was the entire premise of the program started under Obama to do exactly that.

Please get your facts straight and stop murking the discussion with your lite version of the Chewbacca defense, as your other arguments are irrelevant in the case of that guy from the article, because him having a work permit, means he is NOT illegal.

I'm not defending anything here, you are. He was illegal before he got the work permit and he was illegal after he got it. Just because he was issued something by the government doesn't mean he has legal immigrant status (ie: green card), nor does it mean he has a record of citizenship.

I posted those other articles to show how illegals do often times take part in government programs that some people seem to think they are incapable of (regardless of whether or not that should be the case).

Look, Quash. I get it: You (and others) are still sore because at some point in time, you couldn't compete with other job seekers whose advantage over you was that they spoke more than one language, and thus it made them more attractive to other employers who could use them to take care of more potential customers. I get it. Just, please, don't let that resentment blind and make you assume that "immigrant" always equals "illegal", because you know, there are ways to enter, stay and work legally in the US, as you so crassly missed.

Christ, where do I even begin to unpack this?

I don't resent anyone, dude, let alone someone working a dead end job for less than minimum wage under the table. In hindsight, all the dead end jobs in the world wouldn't have changed my situation when I was younger (in large part because I lived in Section 8, a poverty trap if there ever was one), so it doesn't bother me on a personal level. What does bother me is when people like you, either intentionally or unwittingly, lie out of their teeth about the effects of illegal immigration on the job market. It suppresses wages. It takes way opportunities from underprivileged youth. It ensures a permanent underclass of people who make just enough money to live a little more comfortably than their legal immigrant/citizen counterparts in the same income bracket before taxes.

The only people who actually benefit from illegal immigration are the same ultra-wealthy elites that Democrats and leftists claim to loathe. Notice how the GOP is quick to jump to the defense of DACA.

There's no reason why this practice should continue. It unequivocally hurts Americans and even has detrimental effects on Mexico.

Yes, I know not all of them come from Mexico, but many do. Yes, I do think the people that hire illegals should face penalties, but that's right up there with prohibition in terms of being able to actually enforce it (until we adopt my fantasy solution of a CAC for everyone, much to the disdain of leftists who think certain groups of people are too stupid/poor/lazy to get an ID).

Anyways, this seems to be a touchy subject for you for one reason or another, so don't take anything I say here personally. Just understand that there are people who have been on the other side of this issue, at the ground level, who know all about its seamy underbelly.

[quash]

Funny, I don't think I've heard a single America-first/Hillary Wants WWIII-er say one word about that particular development in the weeks since it happened.

It's another concession to McMaster, as was the bombing of an abandoned airfield for April Fool's. He needs to go, but McMaster's roots are deep and it won't be so easy to get rid of him. The increase in troops to Afghanistan isn't final yet, and I do seriously hope it gets shot down.

[BryanM]

You know what really creates a permanent underclass of people and suppresses wages?

Capitalism.

Did you know some people think it's o-k to own the value of someone else's work? Crazy, right?!

[Rob]

Only in America can we be simultaneously obese and chronically deprived (or whatever is supposed to be a feature of our permanent underclass). My critique of capitalism would be that it appears to be a race to destroy the biosphere. Aside from that, capitalism is the best thing we've had since boundless plains and tipis.

[BryanM]

The market and capitalism are two different things.

The market has existed since back when apes were trading hand jobs in the trees. Capitalism is a non-democratic feudal structure in one's workplace and is a passing fad that will have come and gone in a blink in geological terms.

Cows tend to be unable to see before and beyond the pens they were born into. They're still delicious when put into burritos, however.

[Rob]

Capitalism is a non-democratic feudal structure in one's workplace

We have a lot of freedom to pursue whatever passion(s) or life course we desire within or around this "non-democratic feudal structure". Not all bad. Of course people will be limited by their intelligence and motivation. Honestly, I'm confused about what people want that is not possible to obtain in America today.

[BulletMagnet]

Only in America can we be simultaneously obese and chronically deprived.

You're seriously deep in "it's cold outside so climate change must be fake" territory here, in terms of how utterly restricted to the outermost surface one's discussion of an issue must be to voice such a conclusion.

Honestly, I'm confused about what people want that is not possible to obtain in America today.

Depends on what you mean by "possible" - if technically possible, very little. Reasonably possible is another story.

[Rob]

Reasonably possible is another story.

OK, what is not reasonably possible to obtain? What kind of lifestyle are people expecting as a bare minimum for jobs that require no or next to no skill?

[Specineff]

Anyways, this seems to be a touchy subject for you for one reason or another, so don't take anything I say here personally. Just understand that there are people who have been on the other side of this issue, at the ground level, who know all about its seamy underbelly.

All right. I'm glad you typed this, because I was thinking of chopping up your posts and replying the way I've been doing before, but for the sake of neither coming off as antagonistic, I'll leave some responses here, please match them to what you wrote.

My main beef with you, is that you mostly quote Breitbart as your source. Seriously. That place screams "Dey Took er jerbs!" with foam coming out of the mouth... and an article by Tancredo, talking about a sinister conspiracy in 2001 by the Mexican government is the equivalent of anything I were to hypothetically quote from La Raza, to you. Without being caustic as I ask this, can you please quote from a neutral source instead?

Fine, I'll take your word about not resenting anything/anyone despite me getting such an impression from prior posts, and leave it there.

I want to leave this on your table: As wrong, scandalous, or whatever other people may see the granting of driver licenses to illegals (though the most recent trend appears to be that of accepting DLs from Mexico and/or other countries) and Tax IDs to get refunds, such compromise by the government means that those people leave a paper trail, can be tagged, tracked and charged in case of a traffic accident, and ensures they can get driving insurance without an excuse. Also, if they're getting tax returns, it means they are paying taxes, thus contributing to the economy.

Almost finally, that people under DACA get provisionary permits, by law, doesn't mean all illegals do, and that they do so with the same ease or impunity one would as claiming a prize with some UPC codes and a money order for return shipping. For Dreamers, it's been some vetting harsher than that of refugees or legal immigrants, IIRC.

And finally, I ask that you also consider there are people (some of them close to me, for example) that have been on the other other side of the issue, and it's not a magical picnic as some would have you believe.

Thanks.

P.S. You know, on the defense of DACA, not doing something about it, it would mean that there would be 800,000 people who'd suddenly stop contributing to the economy and being under vigilance, and that would go back to working under the radar, be a pain and a major cost to track, detain, and process (hopefully by the book). Please consider that, regardless of who is behind a resolution to the conundrum, it benefits everybody to choose the lesser of two evils.

[BryanM]

If this latest kerfluffle ends with our president going "nah I was just joking I can't do that to kids" and shrugging his shoulders, that'd be yet another hilarious escapade in this pointless shaggy dog story of a TV show. How ball-busting that would be on Sessions. Sigh, damn good way to keep civic engagement high though.

Breitbart is really crazy. I mean, you go there and they talk about Ivanka and her husband as if they're evil bastard globalist assholes. But, somehow her dad is some naive rube who doesn't know their policies hurt the little guy. Like I said - it's just like how people worship Obama as something he's not. The symbol of Trump is more important to them than the actual Mr.Burns type fellow he actually is.

This kind of hero worship, anti-republicanism was bred into us from centuries of feudalism, I suppose.

[BulletMagnet]

What kind of lifestyle are people expecting as a bare minimum for jobs that require no or next to no skill?

First off, I'm not sure you and I have the same mental picture, or personal experience, of a "non-skilled" job, or what it entails; for one thing, it's worth noting that fewer and fewer employers are offering any meaningful training or advancement opportunities to the rank and file (as such, how exactly are folks expected to acquire these much-coveted skills without taking time off from working and/or going into debt to do it?), and for another, anyone who's ever worked an "unskilled" job will tell you that 1) Every job has something about it that not everyone is going to be able to do, and 2) No matter how menial the work or how little compensation they offer, every employer will work their lowest-level employees to the bone, since they can simply dispose of them and find someone else if they either burn out or, heaven forbid, dare to complain about the working conditions. If you want to bring those shifty immigrants into it, some places knowingly employ illegals, make them work under unsafe conditions, and simply report them to immigration officials if they get hurt so they don't have to compensate them for their injuries.

If you want my personal opinion on what an "unskilled" worker has the right to expect, I'd keep it pretty modest; a non-leaky, non-rat-infested roof over their head, food to eat that doesn't have "Mc" in front of it, some manner of essential health care, enough left over to cover transportation and other essentials. Heck, if you really want to get crazy, you might set aside a bit to put away for a rainy day (I don't dare say "retirement") or, lordy lordy, a smidgen to actually enjoy a bit of one's life outside of work, insofar as such a thing can exist. Of course, what we actually get is shit like this.

[BryanM]

Adam Smith nailed the bare minimum hundreds of years ago:

"A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more; otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation."

Anything worse than "pay for rent, food, a couple kids" is a form of eugenics. We're not exactly handing out free land for people to farm upon and sustain themselves at birth like in the olde frontier days of conquest.

"Unskilled" is just another one of those weasel words that trigger me so. It's just another way of dehumanizing someone else, so it's ok their lives are shit and have no possibility of ever getting better. Oh, but we have debt-flipping douchebags in charge of banks so they earned that money 'cause they're so "skilled" at committing fraud and provide so much value to humanity. This is a perfectly just world after all : D

____


Still tripping about Hillary. I can not for the life of me understand this person. Is she planning on running? Then why did she decide to drag her balls over Sanders, Biden, and Obama? Rationally if a politician did such a thing you'd go "oh yeah, they're done with politics". But she's not a politician, so she might think this is tactically an o-k thing to do.

Imagine what a completely different universe we'd be in if she had his back right now, like he had her back in the past.



But a Hillary Clinton who could do that wouldn't have lost to Donald Trump. Petty lashing out at people instead of advancing a political goal, it is. Because it was never about policies or other people. It was always about her.




Edit: There is the the theory that she's doing this for the same reason FOX News, Wingnut media etc keeps its audience filled with hate. That as long as she keeps her diehard supporters furious at the democratic party, that'll help preserve the party as it is for a little longer. But this may indeed just be a lot "epileptic tree" fan-fiction; it could be she's just a giant asshole.

[Mischief Maker]

I was of half a mind that the scans were bullshit. That "There's Something About Mary" anecdote was so stupid that even if it were true you wouldn't repeat it in public. But then I remember she and her campaign thought that Pokemon Go to the Polls line was dynamite; it totally wouldn't cause the blonde supporter in the lower left to visibly cringe in anticipation.

I wish Clinton would just recede back into the woods. I get whiplash in these conversations because on one hand I think, "Remember when establishment Dems said we shouldn't re-litigate the 2016 primary when they were pushing Keith 'energize the base' Ellison?"

But also, "How ironic is it that the people who last year were saying Hillary Clinton was 'unacceptable' to vote for as president because she was 'late' to embracing marriage equality are now debating the merits of a President Pence as the lesser evil?"

[BryanM]

Yes, Bernie Sanders wanting to expand Medicare and Social Security makes him the deranged serial killer from There's Something About Mary. Clearly.

You have no idea how important it is for us to join hands and bipartisanly cut Medicare and Social Security. It's the only sane adult thing to do.

President Pence as the lesser evil?

There's no debate there. Pence is a thousand times more evil. He can pretend to care about people and hold together a staff that can actually do things.

[Obscura]

Did you know some people think it's o-k to own the value of someone else's work? Crazy, right?!

Not crazy at all; without the presence of capital, the value of the work done by a laborer wouldn't be as high. Thus, it's entirely reasonable for the owner of the capital to make a profit based on his capital's contribution tot he worker's output.

[Mischief Maker]

There's no debate there. Pence is a thousand times more evil. He can pretend to care about people and hold together a staff that can actually do things.

Then you give Pence far more credit than I do. He's a Chris Christie who Trump thinks looks good on camera. His approval rating as governor was in the 30s when he made a hail-mary pass by joining the Trump train.

Remember, it wasn't Trump out in the Senate gathering votes to repeal obamacare, he delegated that job to Pence. And I don't believe McCain's flip was a last-minute decision that no politician could have forseen. Chuck Schumer was holding some military funding hostage and after McCain's flip quietly approved it. In fact, if you watch the video of McCain's thumbs-down again, look up and to his left. Right after the gasp some of the democrats start to clap, but Schumer waves at them to shut up and let McCain save face. Trump was never anything more than a rubber-stamp with a toupee, McConnell himself said as much on the Senate floor. The only reason Pence didn't get the blame for this is he's the republicans' plan B if Trump's neuroses become too much for them to contain.

And while I definitely think he's a factor, I don't think Trump is the driving force of the current progressive groundswell. Remember, we already had a dangerously incompetent president who accomplished far worse than Trump in the form of Bush jr, and he didn't bring the revolution. No, I think with Hillary Clinton falling flat on her stupid face, people realized they can't trust the "adults" in the democratic establishment to fix things for us. In fact, with this awful book coming out where she can't even acknowledge any part of it was her fault, it's going to galvanize people even more.

The greater evil scenario you're describing would be a President Kasich.

[BryanM]

The approval rating of most republicans is sub-50%. Because they're not popular, as puppets propped up by money can't be. (If popular interests and corporate interests coincided, there would be no need for them to spend that money to hold control of the government. It would just be the natural order of things.)

He's not some genius wizard, I'm just comparing his competency to Donald Trump. His first congressional year is coming to a close, and it looks very possible that the billionaire tax cuts aren't going to happen yet. This is pants-poopingly shocking to me if this happens - they have the food already in their mouths, all they had to do is chew and swallow it, but he couldn't even get that done.

The Romneycare repeal was always going to be a shitshow because it was always a load of empty posturing they did to the base, expecting they'd never have to actually do it. The billionaire tax cuts, they've got bipartisan friends on the Democratic side gushing for them - there was absolutely nothing stopping them from snapping their fingers and passing them months ago.

And while I definitely think he's a factor, I don't think Trump is the driving force of the current progressive groundswell. Remember, we already had a dangerously incompetent president who accomplished far worse than Trump in the form of Bush jr, and he didn't bring the revolution.

As I constantly repeat here, Bush Jr. did bring a revolution. The black kenyan socialist muslim dude against government corruption and preached a (vague) gospel of hope and change. 70% approval rating this guy had going into office. Tears flowed as though Jesus himself were seated upon the throne.

Then he gave the bankers a break at everyone else's expense. Which drove a bunch of hippies to sleep in a park in complaint.

The revolution had showed up, the massive groundswell to get him elected was it, but Obama had told them to go home.

Absolutely the New Liberal's inability to defeat a gameshow clown is a pivotal milestone, but so is old man Sanders yelling at the hippies to get out of the park and into the seats of power in the democratic party. (Seriously - his ideas haven't been allowed on television in over 20 years now. That's a very big deal.) All this was going to happen naturally as the youth replaced their elders, but these three symbolic figures all had an important part to play.

The groundswell isn't just because crooked politicians can't protect us from fascism - it's also because there's the realization that we are right and that we will win. Now is the time to sprint forward, more than ever.

[Mischief Maker]

Obama runs an amazing presidential campaign that puts Gore, Kerry, and Clinton's to shame. That "Hope" poster remains iconic to this day.

Bush jr. gets the credit.

What's a brother gotta do?

[BulletMagnet]

Meanwhile, hurricane season continues to bring out the best the right's leadership has to offer.

[BryanM]

Bush jr. gets the credit.

What's a brother gotta do?

They both get credit!

Bush for ruining the republican brand for generations to come, and Obama for doing an excellent job of pretending to be the exact opposite of them.

[Zen]

That "Hope" poster remains iconic to this day.

You refer of course to the "poster" that the impostor Shepard Fairey lifted from Irish artist Jim Fitzpatrick? Its antecedent perhaps signifies?

They both get credit!

Bush for ruining the republican brand for generations to come, and Obama for doing an excellent job of pretending to be the exact opposite of them.

When your're right your're right.

[Zen]

Meanwhile, hurricane season continues to bring out the best the right's leadership has to offer.

Do you not tire of this left right, up down, in out, front back, black white, divide and conquer bullshit? I mean really!
Most people are basically decent. Its a real bummer to see people marching behind ideological pied pipers.

[Durandal]

Thank you Google, you are our greatest ally

An open letter to Google: Stop the censorship of the Internet! Stop the political blacklisting of the World Socialist Web Site!

Gentlemen:

Google’s mission statement from the outset was “to organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible and useful.” Its official code of conduct was proclaimed in Google’s famous motto: “Don’t be evil.” In recent years, you have seriously lost your way. You are now engaged in hiding the world’s information, and, in the process, are doing a great deal of evil.

When Google officially discontinued its China-based search engine, due to censorship by the Chinese government of search engine results for political criticism, Mr. Brin publicly stated that for Google, “it has always been a discussion about how we can best fight for openness on the Internet. We believe that this is the best thing that we can do for preserving the principles of the openness and freedom of information on the Internet.”

In 2013, when Mr. Schmidt visited Burma, he spoke in favor of free and open Internet use in the country. In light of Google’s recent actions, the statements of Mr. Brin and Mr. Schmidt appear utterly hypocritical.

Google, and by implication, its parent company Alphabet, Inc., are now engaged in political censorship of the Internet. You are doing what you have previously publicly denounced.

Google is manipulating its Internet searches to restrict public awareness of and access to socialist, anti-war and left-wing websites. The World Socialist Web Site (http://www.wsws.org) has been massively targeted and is the most affected by your censorship protocols. Referrals to the WSWS from Google have fallen by nearly 70 percent since April of this year.

Censorship on this scale is political blacklisting. The obvious intent of Google’s censorship algorithm is to block news that your company does not want reported and to suppress opinions with which you do not agree. Political blacklisting is not a legitimate exercise of whatever may be Google’s prerogatives as a commercial enterprise. It is a gross abuse of monopolistic power. What you are doing is an attack on freedom of speech.

...

As stated above, since April, other left-wing publications that present themselves as progressive, socialist or anti-war also have suffered significant reductions in their Google search results:

* alternet.org fell by 63 percent
* globalresearch.ca fell by 62 percent
* consortiumnews.com fell by 47 percent
* mediamatters.org fell by 42 percent
* commondreams.org fell by 37 percent
* internationalviewpoint.org fell by 36 percent
* democracynow.org fell by 36 percent
* wikileaks.org fell by 30 percent
* truth-out.org fell by 25 percent
* counterpunch.org fell by 21 percent
* theintercept.com fell by 19 percent

[BryanM]

Right after they demonetized political speech on Youtube, too. There's talk of the tech industry falling out with the dems, should the democrats decide to be even slightly anti-monopoly. The Elon Musk is cool with evil that doesn't affect him personally meme is appropriate.

A quote, for this Saturn's day: "I don't give them Hell. I just tell the truth about them and they think it's Hell."

[BryanM]

Thomas Frank always has a great way of articulating how we got to where we are right now.

Right wing culture warriors do very much see themselves as class warriors for the little guy. No one sees themselves as being on the side of Mr.Burns - they only believe in things like trickle-down as deeply as someone as obviously corrupt like Hillary Clinton will push against it. Which is just shallow empty words.

[quash]

And being pro-mass immigration is sticking it to the man!

[BryanM]

And being pro-mass immigration is sticking it to the man!

quash.

Nobody is advocating that we dissolve the USBP. Or can you point to all the amazing legislation and bullet points on Hillary's and Bernie's websites that advocate for this astonishing and remarkably communist ideal of a stateless society, where people are allowed to be free without BIG GOVERNMENT telling them where they can and can not exist?

Also: Do we have net immigration from Mexico, or net emigration to Mexico? Have you figured out the numbers on that yet, or do you still think it's 1992?

No one even brought up your obsession with penises. It was abortion that was brought up as a thing rich people do to dodge taking responsibility for their actions, and you jump right into another rant on men taking our jobs and women. Jesus...

The topic at hand was abortion. And how it's a cosmetic identity football that doesn't really mean much, like prohibition was.

[Rob]

Also: Do we have net immigration from Mexico, or net emigration to Mexico?

How can we speed this up? Maybe a wall design with something like wildlife gates.

[BryanM]

Yes, very intelligent and on topic posts about abortion and prohibition.

Thank you for your contribution to the political revolution thread, fellow scholars.