Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

[Faith]

People with superhuman cyborg reflexes who can clear a game in 20 tries?

Actually, what is amazing, is that many, many Cave games, and most STG's really on their Expert Mode or 2nd Loop... are very, very, ultra, routing-heavy. No human reflexes can win it. You must route properly. My amazement is not with super reflexes... but how some people learn routing and chaining so crazy fast. FYI, there is a reason why superplay DVD also very popular in Japan. Some players can watch a superplay, and memorize most of the routing at home before going arcade @_@"... what crazy ability is that. For me, all my clears, including Expert Mode, I route myself. Sometimes, if I struggle, I will watch specific part of superplay to get ideas on how to solve the puzzle of a certain area... but my memory is very, very bad at watching other players and memorizing. I memorize best when learning through my own blood x_x"... also, it is very, very satisfying... when I get 1CC and after that I watch a full superplay and I see that I learned some of the routes myself and that superplayers also use it!~

[1000Eyes]

No changes to how the score counter works. I don't think counterstop has ever been achieved though. clp had runs in the low-mid 80 millions. The scoring balance is completely different to master ver, and X360 Blue is itself different to the MAME dump.

Ah, thanks. I wonder if Blue ever gets any playtime at all, given the host of scoring changes like no more A button tapping or adding grazing, or its poor availability issues.

[Whiskers]

There’s no way to enable rapid-fire in the arcade version of S1945 and S1945 II, is it? IIRC, the PlayStation and PS2 ports have them.

[Whiskers]

There’s no way to enable rapid-fire in the arcade version of S1945 and S1945 II, is it? IIRC, the PlayStation and PS2 ports have them.

Welp, answered my own question. Looks like MAME's autofire plugin can spare my index finger from having to continuously tap the shot button.

[Starfighter]

I've got a question about Raiden Fighters Jet. When picking up the largest medal sometimes the other medals on screen not yet picked up explode and from there on the medals change behaviour, value and sprite. But sometimes, that doesn't happen. What's the conditions I need to meet?

Edit: Sorry, found the answer on Shmups Wiki. Apparently it's called Gold Medal Mode and there needs to be nine (or more, I guess) medals on screen for this to happen.

[Creamy Goodness]

I was messing around with the Windows version of Cho Ren Sha v1.10 and I was trying to get into the stage select menu by what I found on Google which was hold the up button in the config menu, but it was not working. Was this removed from this revision of the game?

[Lethe]

I was messing around with the Windows version of Cho Ren Sha v1.10 and I was trying to get into the stage select menu by what I found on Google which was hold the up button in the config menu, but it was not working. Was this removed from this revision of the game?

Yeah, the strings for it aren't even in the executable, as far as I can tell it's completely gone for now.
There's Cheat Engine values for stage select on shmups.wiki, or you could play X68k v1.10 which does have a debug menu.

[Creamy Goodness]

I was messing around with the Windows version of Cho Ren Sha v1.10 and I was trying to get into the stage select menu by what I found on Google which was hold the up button in the config menu, but it was not working. Was this removed from this revision of the game?

Yeah, the strings for it aren't even in the executable, as far as I can tell it's completely gone for now.
There's Cheat Engine values for stage select on shmups.wiki, or you could play X68k v1.10 which does have a debug menu.

Thank you. What an odd thing to remove from the game. Curious what drove that decision.

[xEbb1993x]

Is Batsugun considered a crossover game? Because it's got characters from Out Zone and Sky Shark as one of its main characters.

[Steven]

Batsugun does not have any characters from Out Zone.

[xEbb1993x]

Batsugun does not have any characters from Out Zone.

https://toaplan.fandom.com/wiki/Jeeno_Limrustedt

Then who is this?

[Steven]

Not the guy from Out Zone.

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

Jeeno Limrustedt

[xEbb1993x]

Not the guy from Out Zone.

They said it's the same character from Out Zone, though...

[Steven]

Joker Jun specifically said that it's NOT the guy from Out Zone.

[jpd66]

So I’m curious about something related to the conversation around Battle Garegga. Perusing numerous threads around here, I’ve noticed that the claim is sometimes made that Garegga’s greatness, with regard to its game design or its enduring appeal amongst serious players, is partially “accidental” or “unintentional”. And maybe I’ve seen these words used to describe Yagawa’s games in general, even aside from Garegga. But I’m not sure that I’ve seen these views explained thoroughly. What’s up with this?…I’m no foremost expert, but I have played a lot of Garegga over the past couple of years, and have read through and studied all of the strategy/game design content that I could find around here and elsewhere. It seems like a lot of thought and attention to detail went into its design. So, just curious, what am I missing here?

[xEbb1993x]

Joker Jun specifically said that it's NOT the guy from Out Zone.

Then I was being lied to. What about the biplane guy?

[BulletMagnet]

So, just curious, what am I missing here?

Off the cuff I can't ever say I've really seen Garegga's popularity described as "accidental", but I'm inclined to guess that this refers to the game's most (in)famous feature, the invisible "rank" system, which Yagawa has stated was implemented solely to stealthily make the game more difficult and thus earn more tokens from players in arcades. Years later, once people were able to dig into MAME code and figure out exactly how it worked, the approach to playing the game completely changed, as consciously playing with the rank in mind became a staple; in time later shooters even made rank manipulation an explicit part of their gameplay. Garegga was far from the first shmup with rank, but it was the first one to truly intrigue players on that front, in addition to being well-made in many other respects.

That's my take, at any rate: a gameplay system that players were never even meant to know about eventually became iconic in a way the creator never could have foreseen.

[Lethe]

So I’m curious about something related to the conversation around Battle Garegga. Perusing numerous threads around here, I’ve noticed that the claim is sometimes made that Garegga’s greatness, with regard to its game design or its enduring appeal amongst serious players, is partially “accidental” or “unintentional”. And maybe I’ve seen these words used to describe Yagawa’s games in general, even aside from Garegga. But I’m not sure that I’ve seen these views explained thoroughly. What’s up with this?…I’m no foremost expert, but I have played a lot of Garegga over the past couple of years, and have read through and studied all of the strategy/game design content that I could find around here and elsewhere. It seems like a lot of thought and attention to detail went into its design. So, just curious, what am I missing here?

Garegga plays the way it does because of oversights. It was intended to defeat rank abuse - which Yagawa would have been well familiar with - but ironically turned into revolving around rank abuse. The chief problem is high-value medals are bugged and have close to zero rank impact. Picking up every single max value medal in the game totals only a fraction of the rank that you'll lose by dying once. Score extends are so frequent and there's no penalty to them. Contrast this to Batrider where juggling one life always causes rank to go up over time, scoring in general always causes rank to go up over time, and merely stocking extra lives can cause the game to go irreparably ballistic (outside of using a Special Extend, but how that works may itself be an oversight). That's the "fixed" manifestation of Yagawa rank.

None of this is to say his games are good "by accident" though, or that Garegga was a work of genius magically springing up out of nowhere, or that its rank system deserves to always be the center of attention over its other distinctions. Players tend to have very fetishistic takes on game design: they assume that because they like something, the developers must have had the same priorities as they do, and must have been nerding out about it as much as they are. My favorite shmup example is Ketsui, where the entire scoring system was cobbled together a week before release. There's a great amount of skill evident in being able to implement something with so much lasting appeal so quickly, but a polished jewel of artisanal detail it isn't. The love-struck mythologize that later.

When making DDP, Cave had little idea how much chaining was possible. Their priority in the stage design was cramming it full of endless enemies and bullets to make it look stunning, and that was good enough to conveniently facilitate chaining. T3-Kamui has talked about playing Garegga just to fight Black Heart because it was cool, that's where the appeal stems from. If Garegga was just a wacky rank system game and everything else about it was crap then nobody would have bothered figuring it out. Routing seems sensible and elegant today because the information and meta has been refined for 20 years. If we could see one of the first F score runs from 1996 I bet they'd miss all kinds of things with our hindsight.

In the end arcade games, commercial games in general, are supposed to make money. Every studio inevitably makes cuts and compromises to achieve that, no work is ever finished, and it's testament to developers' skill that they can occasionally produce something that retains its vital creative aura despite the challenges of circumstance. That's what makes a good game in real terms. Whether accident is a factor or not, who knows? From our perspective it's only academic.

[jpd66]

Thanks BulletMagnet and Lethe for the thorough responses. I think my understanding of this topic is better now.

The fact that collecting high-value scoring medals causes minimal rank impact, combined with a frequent extend rate, along with the significant rank drop from suiciding…this loop feels so good to play through, with plenty of variability, dynamism, and emergent depth to enjoy- especially when you factor in the additional trade of suiciding lives for bomb fragments to use for scoring tricks, or even just making mistakes and having to improvise to get back on track, or the RNG in certain places. It all works so well to create an interesting gameplay loop, that it seems like it just had to be 100% intentional…If Yagawa wanted to discourage rank abuse, you would think he would have realized that the minimal rank impact of high-value scoring medals, combined with frequent score-based extends would be a problem…Oh well, if it’s fun to play, it’s fun to play. And of course, there is plenty else to enjoy about it, aside from the rank system.

[Steven]

So what is the deal with Darius Gaiden? I have been messing around with this game for the past day or so, but I feel like my weapons are all uselessly weak and I struggle to kill anything and it makes me think this game is a giant piece of shit and I hate it. I'm certain I am missing something here, but I have no idea what it is. I usually make it to D or G before I get overwhelmed by zako and chain death to game over, but that's about it. I am playing the arcade version, if that matters.

[Light1000]

So what is the deal with Darius Gaiden? I have been messing around with this game for the past day or so, but I feel like my weapons are all uselessly weak and I struggle to kill anything and it makes me think this game is a giant piece of shit and I hate it. I'm certain I am missing something here, but I have no idea what it is. I usually make it to D or G before I get overwhelmed by zako and chain death to game over, but that's about it. I am playing the arcade version, if that matters.

The game has a default auto-fire rate lower than the actual possible maximum (30)

[Steven]

Yes, and I don't use external autofire in this game because it causes rank to skyrocket and that is definitely undesirable.

[jehu]

Yes, and I don't use external autofire in this game because it causes rank to skyrocket and that is definitely undesirable.

There’s what you’re missing.

If you search the forum, you’ll find a world of discourse about Gaiden and autofire that’s been unfolding right under your nose, ad nauseum, forever and ever - since you’ve been here, and way before. I participated in it, then realized I was only caught up in one grand circle of reincarnating fools-to-magicians-to-fools. You can stop the cycle by just being cool with using autofire and not complaining too much; and then, if you do learn the game with no auto, by not being a pretentious ass about it. The player archetypes repeat themselves - rise beyond them.

In short, the increased damage compensates for rank, and not subtly. The game works well with no auto, but it’ll demand a whole different kind of learning to make it through.

[Steven]

So just ignore the rank and spam 30Hz the whole way? Sounds simple enough. Also makes me wonder why the game was balanced the way it is, but no point in worrying about it now.

Might as well mention that I like G-Darius and MD Darius. Those are both really cool games, especially MD Darius, so I've always been pretty frustrated with not liking Gaiden at all. 30Hz spam it is. Not even going to let go of the button a single time for the whole duration just to see what happens to the rank. Will attempt it within the next few days, but I'll be busy until like Monday.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

So just ignore the rank and spam 30Hz the whole way? Sounds simple enough. Also makes me wonder why the game was balanced the way it is, but no point in worrying about it now.

If you want to feel powerful but it feels too strong, you can set it to like 8 to 10 hz if you like. But, for what it's worth, the attract demo showcases an autofire that's insanely fast, like 15 hz. You might as well go all in and enjoy 30 hz.

High rank is required for scoring anyways; I remember playing it at a couple arcades in Japan and both had 30 hz buttons mapped for it.

The default autofire is super weak, especially for some specific sections of the game. If you don't have autofire available, manual mashing significantly improves your damage.

[Steven]

Well, I almost cleared Darius Gaiden. Game over at the beginning of V. That was... interesting. I have no idea what to think of this game now.

[Rastan78]

So just ignore the rank and spam 30Hz the whole way? Sounds simple enough. Also makes me wonder why the game was balanced the way it is, but no point in worrying about it now.

Yeah the Gaiden autofire debate never ended lol. I came across some info that gives a little info on the devs perspective from an old bbs message board on a website the main programmer used to have. Never shared it bc i felt the issue was beaten to death and doesn't end well.

But as far as how the game is balanced the main programmer said in the gamest mook interview it's about scoring more, increasing rank, scoring more repeat the loop and see how far you can push. And he lists the things that increase rank (continuous autofire, medals, boss parts etc)

The mook also has a preface that says the whole routing and scoring guide assumes you have an autofire circuit. But try the patterns anyway if you don't bc many will still work. There's a side box explaining the details of how c sync autofire circuits work by dividing the refresh rate to give accurate auto speed.

Some of the things in the same main programmer Kurabar's bbs discussion which was circa 2005:

He said he proofread the main text of the gamest mook but was disappointed they didn't make some of the corrections he asked for anyway.

Somebody asked him about rank increase from auto. He said couldn't tell you without looking at source but I dont think it was as severe as in Gun Frontier.

He said a lot of people consider the game hard to clear without auto. If you use an autofire device as little as possible you can clear the last boss easily.

Something like once you play with auto, it's no good you can't go back. The routes change. It's like a performance enhancing drug.

Might be hard to notice the rank increase from autofire if you were also doing boss parts etc and raising it that way.

[Rastan78]

Well, I almost cleared Darius Gaiden. Game over at the beginning of V. That was... interesting. I have no idea what to think of this game now.

Yeah it's an unusual game balance for sure. 30hz play shines for high level scoring and the balance comes into its own at high rank, nmnb with boss milking etc. Rank control for scoring is more about boosting to high levels. Also it's really easy to get a cheese clear making it a good beginner shmup but too easy as a basic clear for good players.

Then no auto is challenging for a survival clear. Some routes you can score without auto pretty well while some scoring stuff is realistically impossible to do without auto. Rank control for scoring is more about keeping it as low as possible. Fast mashing is required for specific score stuff.

[Steven]

Yeah, no auto seems rough, and not just in comparison to using 30Hz... but I was surprised at how my rank at the end of stage 1 without auto is always 11, but with holding 30Hz the whole time it was only like 12 or 13. I already forgot, but it was one of those. It really doesn't hurt that much, so for now I think it's safe to say to forget rank entirely and never let go of the 30Hz button.

I made it all the way to my Darius 1 nemesis Fatty Glutton before I died. I hate that bastard, especially in Darius 1, but considering I didn't know he was in Gaiden until now (should have expected it, honestly) and hadn't made it past the stage before his stage before and didn't game over until the last stage, I'm going to call that not bad. Seeing as I almost cleared just winging it with no knowledge at all, I could probably 1CC this within the next few days with a little more memo, but I'm going to take it easy for now. I'm not in a rush.

Genuinely not sure what to make of this game now. I guess that is just how it is. Might check out some other routes later since the stages seem to be relatively short. Is stage 1 longer than most of the rest? It certainly feels that way, and even that is not a very long stage.