NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:

[bobrocks95]

I believe PC-10 has the benefit of being the only palette where you can just rip RGB values from the hardware, which I would assume has been done already.

[tacoboy42]

I believe PC-10 has the benefit of being the only palette where you can just rip RGB values from the hardware, which I would assume has been done already.

ok gotcha, makes sense, thanks!

[Elrinth]

I got myself a new capture card yesterday. datapath something something... extremely expensive. but mine is some kind of copy, but works like the original.
looking forwards to flashing the new palettes! <3

[FBX]

Just flashed my NESRGB with Option 5 and tested out "Original Hardware" on my PVM. Let me just say I'm blown away at the accuracy! I'm switching between the NESRGB and an unmodded NES on the same games, and the hues are looking identical! That said, I also had a look at the composite direct palette, and it also was extremely close, with as I predicted the intensity values be slightly weak on the brighter colors. The difference is very minor though.


Okay so Tim has stated the 3rd position is the default for RGB mods with no toggle switch option.

For those with a toggle switch, you will likely find that switch position 2 and 3 are swapped like they are on mine. For example, I just flashed my NESRGB with option 5, and switch position 2 and 3 were in fact swapped.

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/nes ... 1-2017.zip





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[that1crzywhtguy]

Just flashed my NESRGB with Option 5 and tested out "Original Hardware" on my PVM. Let me just say I'm blown away at the accuracy! I'm switching between the NESRGB and an unmodded NES on the same games, and the hues are looking identical! That said, I also had a look at the composite direct palette, and it also was extremely close, with as I predicted the intensity values be slightly weak on the brighter colors. The difference is very minor though.


Okay so Tim has stated the 3rd position is the default for RGB mods with no toggle switch option.

For those with a toggle switch, you will likely find that switch position 2 and 3 are swapped like they are on mine. For example, I just flashed my NESRGB with option 5, and switch position 2 and 3 were in fact swapped.

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/nes ... 1-2017.zip

.

Sorry to hear you were sick man, hoping you're on the mend.

Thanks for all your hard work, I can't wait to try this out! Got a pile of reading HW to do tonight (the UC system works us hard ), but once I'm through I'm cracking my nes open and trying it out! I'll report back with my humble take (I imagine it will be nothing but kudos).

[that1crzywhtguy]

Edit: oops, sorry, this was a mistaken redundant post, probably from my internet cutting out!

[FBX]

Thanks! The only difference that came up was the PVM sets the default saturation level of RGB seemingly higher than composite. All I had to do to check accuracy was adjust the chroma knob for composite input slightly higher. The moment I did this, everything magically aligned like the parting of the Red Sea.

[xadox]

Finaly! Realy great news

[FBX]

Update:

I'm embarrassed to admit I've re-submitted the palette combinations to Tim in order correct a minor mistake I made while compiling them. The error only affects the "Original Hardware" palette (slight intensity level error in one of the color entries), so those of you not interested in using it will not be affected. Those of you who are may want to hold off updating your firmware until I hear back from Tim. I've sent him 75 AUD to pay fro his extra time on this, but if he's willing, I went ahead and compiled all 10 variations. So if all works out, everyone will get their palette set of choice.

I'll keep you all posted, and my apologies for the error.

[that1crzywhtguy]

Update:

I'm embarrassed to admit I've re-submitted the palette combinations to Tim in order correct a minor mistake I made while compiling them. The error only affects the "Original Hardware" palette (slight intensity level error in one of the color entries), so those of you not interested in using it will not be affected. Those of you who are may want to hold off updating your firmware until I hear back from Tim. I've sent him 75 AUD to pay fro his extra time on this, but if he's willing, I went ahead and compiled all 10 variations. So if all works out, everyone will get their palette set of choice.

I'll keep you all posted, and my apologies for the error.

Glad I checked back before I cracked the NES open! Thanks for the heads up and continued efforts!

[copy]

D'oh! I spent all evening updating mine. Oh well.

I'm really digging Composite Direct so far. I think it'll be my main palette.

[Ripthorn]

Thanks for your hard work FBX

I'm on the way to do the fw upgrade, but first I wanted to know if the program and drivers are compatible with Windows 10 x64.

[pyroman512]

Quick question: Does the NES need to be off in order to switch the palette? I know it will switch while on. Just trying to figure out if that causes any damage?

My NES has had issues, more likely caused by my own work modding it for the NESRGB. I'm just trying to get answers for things I know I did so I can correct in the future.

Thanks for everything FBX. Extremely eager to try once NES is back up an running.

[zeruel85]

Thank you FBX for this amazing project!

All your efforts are very appreciated!

[Ripthorn]

Quick question: Does the NES need to be off in order to switch the palette? I know it will switch while on. Just trying to figure out if that causes any damage?

My NES has had issues, more likely caused by my own work modding it for the NESRGB. I'm just trying to get answers for things I know I did so I can correct in the future.

Thanks for everything FBX. Extremely eager to try once NES is back up an running.

You can switch the palettes with the NES turned on without any problem.

[twipley]

i've been following new palette developments closely, and am stepping to the forefront about this for the first time. fbx's pvm-style palette is really to my taste, and in retrospective the time was due for the emergence of such an 'authentic' palette, for caring users. a new standard i believe, if not a canon for the humans to come.

[FBX]

I heard back from Tim and he said it was no problem to redo the firmwares. So now just waiting on him to finish that and we'll be good to go.

Even as is with the one minor mistake, I'm still finding "Original Hardware" to be quite a bit superior to "Composite Direct" on the PVM. I tested out Castlevania and it looked superb on Original Hardware. So as soon as we get the new correct files back from Tim, it will be the go-to palette for PVM users!

[austin532]

How does Original Hardware look on a CRT TV? What is currently the easiest way to flash the board? If we had those JTAG adapters it would be much easier.

[FBX]

How does Original Hardware look on a CRT TV? What is currently the easiest way to flash the board? If we had those JTAG adapters it would be much easier.

It should look just like a front-loader hooked into the set as far as hue and luma goes (saturation is up to the user's tastes). That was the point of the palette. It's not tied to the PVM at all based on how it works.

As for the JTAG adapters, I seem to recall some other people in the thread managed to get some from the manufacturer and posted links?

[FBX]

By the way,

I've been studying the infamous blue SMB sky color on the PVM and switching between composite feed and NESRGB feed and I'm starting to formulate a theory as to what's going on with this color. My findings thus far:

The PVM is showing RGB feed much more literally. This means for example the "Composite Direct" palette SMB sky actually looks purple tainted, while the live composite feed shows that neon blue everyone remembers. What's going on here? Well I then tried comparing "Original Hardware" and found that the hue was now the same, but completely lacked that overblown neon blue look. I further discovered that turning the chroma on the composite feed down by around 25% caused the neon blue effect to go away, making the sky look identical to the NESRGB feed of "Original Hardware", but of course, this makes all the other colors much too muted.


Edit: I found setting the RGB color temp to D93 now brings the blue from "Original Hardware" much closer to the neon effect, but still not as strong as the composite feed.

Edit 2: Bah! changing color temp was also affecting composite feed. I give up

[copy]

I heard back from Tim and he said it was no problem to redo the firmwares. So now just waiting on him to finish that and we'll be good to go.

Excellent!

As for the JTAG adapters, I seem to recall some other people in the thread managed to get some from the manufacturer and posted links?

Yes indeed, anyone can order the boards here (minimum order of 3):

https://www.oshpark.com/shared_projects/n2Hu5aBt

But the pin headers need to be bought separately and soldered in. nakedarther posted this:

For anyone interested, first read the info HD Retrovision's site about it (scroll down to bottom). It explains how to use the "factory" variant which basically doesn't require any soldering on your NESRGB, just the Jtag adapter. You need to order 2 parts from digikey or wherever as well:

header | square-post | 0.100" pitch | 2x5-pin | male | shrouded
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e ... ND/2178422

header | square-post | 0.100" pitch | 1x6-pin | male
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e ... ND/1101221

I did this too, but I bought pin headers from a local store. Unfortunately I couldn't get my assembled adapter to successfully update the firmware last night, so I had to revert to my old method of using breadboard cables. I think the problem is that my 6-pin header isn't making a solid connection with the NESRGB, so I'll need to try different size/shape pins.

[FBX]

I do so much testing with my NESRGB that I'm considering just modding it with a hard-wired connection and then dremeling a port in the back for the USB cable. That way I don't have to keep taking the NES apart every time I need to change the firmware.

[nakedarthur]

So yeah, this is my theory: Somehow the blue channel in the SMB sky gets over-saturated in composite NTSC, and you have no way of causing the same effect from the NESRGB output. That said, the hue of "Original Hardware" is the best approximation.

Edit: I found setting the RGB color temp to D93 now brings the blue from "Original Hardware" much closer to the neon effect, but still not as strong as the composite feed.

I don't think this is any sort of mystery though is it? It's not over-saturated, NTSC just has a wider range of visible color than RGB.

white = NTSC
black = RGB

[copy]

I do so much testing with my NESRGB that I'm considering just modding it with a hard-wired connection and then dremeling a port in the back for the USB cable. That way I don't have to keep taking the NES apart every time I need to change the firmware.

Yeah, it's kind of a chore taking apart a frontloader. But it would be a shame to alter Yurkie's clean case.

I was thinking the expansion slot might be a good place for additional ports or cables. There's some extra room to work with, and it could be hidden by the outer expansion slot cover when not in use.

The more I consider it, I should at least solder in a permanent pin header to the NESRGB, like Voultar did, to make the connection part easier.

[tjstogy]

FBX, or someone, can you provide pictures of unmodified composite NES vs the RGB composite palette on a crt on super Mario 1? Doesn't matter if it's an iPhone photo.

[austin532]

Looks like NTSC has trouble with the purplish blue's which is what the SMB sky is. I also agree that the colors can be overblown for some games because if the sky is just a light blue instead of a strong blue it would appear more white over RF which was the standard. Tiny Toon Adventures is one game that comes to mind.

[tjstogy]

Austin, what's left and what's right? And this is capture card so it may also even be irellavant for crt comparisons correct?

[austin532]

I'm just showing an example of what it looks like over RF when the developers choose a very light color. The lighter colors get washed out and the darker colors get muted. Ignore the other colors in this image though as I did not correct them to look like RF. Just the sky.

[FBX]

I don't think this is any sort of mystery though is it? It's not over-saturated, NTSC just has a wider range of visible color than RGB.

I was having to figure it out on the fly with wondering what's going on with that blue. I pretty much caught onto the right trail though, because I was like "how is it this PVM shows a less intense blue in RGB than it does in NTSC, when the RGB already has blue maxed at 255?". And the only conclusion I could reasonably make is that NSTC has wider range the PVM is reacting to.

Now for another question:

Should we be using D93 color temp since that's the Japanese standard and the NES is known to be based on it? Or, should we stick with D65 since that's what we saw (here in America) on our CRTs?

[shadowman]

I live in America and I think all the crts I used in the 80's and 90's were closer to D93. I didn't even know what warm color temperature was until the HD era. I keep my PVM's and BVM's at D93 because that's exactly how I remember the color in retro games.