The Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Thread (NEW)!!!

[BIL]

Oh, I was just making an offhand reference to the current generation's fondness for outsourcing respected Japanese series to random Western nobodies. Lots of flippancy in those last couple posts.

[Obiwanshinobi]

ToeJam & Earl is a US developed game.
Perhaps Japanese gaming development would be in a better shape these days if they put more trust in barbaric gaming development. OutRun 2006 and Super Monkey Ball Jr. speak volumes.

[BIL]

Ridge Racer Unbounded, every Silent Hill since 2004 and the latest Devil May Cry "speak volumes" too.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Have you played DmC yet?

[louisg]

to the rest. Kid Chameleon deserves a lot more credit, Comix Zone also stylish and fun. The Ooze... need to play that one a bit more before passing judgment. Sure there would be a few more notable releases if they were actually allowed to develop/finish more original content and less Sonic.

I did like K.C., but Comix Zone had some pretty glaring gameplay issues even though the art design was very nice. K.C. had its issues as well, but it was fun. Dunno 'bout The Ooze.

TJ&E is OK-- it's a fun roguelike, but it's also the poster child for runs-like-molasses console releases. Great music though. Ecco was also not bad, AFAIR. And Vectorman is competently executed although IMO it's one of the blandest games of that generation. I have trouble thinking of US action releases of that era which aren't in the "damning with faint praise" zone. Maybe the Roadblasters port..? That was quite good and I played the hell out of it.

[BIL]

Have you played DmC yet?

Yes, have you? And all the others I mention?

[Obiwanshinobi]

TJ&E is OK-- it's a fun roguelike, but it's also the poster child for runs-like-molasses console releases.

Didn't find it any less playable than Granada & Final Zone ports, as well as that UPL shmup port... Bio-ship Paladin I think. Judging by emulation anyway.

Yes, have you? And all the others I mention?

No I haven't. What's wrong with DmC (other than 30 fps on consoles and the character design)?
Speaking of which, funny how the worst thing about Maximo is character design... and it happens to be Japanese.

[BIL]

Other than that sludgy framerate and hideous aesthetic, there isn't much wrong with it at all per se. As a second-rate hack n' slash where you wank your weapons all over ugly monsters for big ranks, it's right up there with DMC2.

OutRun 2006 is a brilliant game, but it's a bit like Gradius V... if all outsourcings resulted in that level of care and excellence I'd have no complaints whatsoever. I can see a bargain basement farmout a mile off, though (bought SH Homecoming at release). Then there's the stuff that represents an earnest effort but whose devs simply didn't have the chops to compete with the earlier in-house works (SH Downpour day 1 as well). It's hard to not feel a little cynical about it all.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I think outsourcing is an economic necessity in this day and age. Games development can't be cheap in Japan (what can?), so they have two options:

either

a) no matter how lagging behind the competition technically and sales-wise, keep making their games internally and pretend everything's A okay

or

b) cooperate with foreign developers and maybe learn something new.

[BIL]

I think outsourcing is an economic necessity in this day and age.

Unfortunately it probably is. I'm just more of a:

I don't think it's a good idea to prolong the inevitable. If you are going to die, do it with a huge explosion.

kind of guy. The JP game industry can collapse tomorrow for all I care, as long as a few more DMC1s and SH2s come out of the event (this gen has already had Bayonetta and Vanquish, at least).

It'd be nice if JP developers were actually cooperating with Western ones, instead of being supplanted by them, but at least in the few modern series I follow that's patently not been the case. It doesn't really matter anyway... there's too much good stuff from 1985-2005 alone for me to care much. I'll still make snide comments about lame outsourced sequels, though!

[Rob]

K.C. had its issues as well, but it was fun.

I want to hear about these issues and get upset.

What's the Chakan consensus around here?

[BrianC]

I want to here about the issues with KC Munchkin too. Is it the moving dots?

[Ed Oscuro]

What's the Chakan consensus around here?

Best deep fried. I don't know actually; I remember I know some people who love it, but when I tried it out (being years ago and before I had good sense knocked into my thick head) I just thought it was ugly.

Japanese developed games once supplanted Western-developed ones...well, the tides also come in and go out. But for the Mega Drive, there was some fine Western development indeed, and I think that The Ooze is probably a very nice game, Ecco has its good points (especially the CD / PC versions), and Comix Zone is just about everything you could want from the '90s. All the beloved Western shows and comics of that era saw no video game format transition better than Comix Zone, and because this was Sega cracking up its own self-made license, they had the ability to coat it with a rather timely layer of self-deprecating humor that even a kid would get. And the gameplay isn't bad either.

It would be nice if there were a few more A-grade brawler tricks, but it's nice that the default moveset is almost brain-dead open for timing and placement finesse, yet it remains well-rounded. They went well out of their way to make it original, so even if it does not quite reach the potential of its concept (which, honestly, I was never aware of it failing) it at least is an enjoyable sucker jab in a new arena. Even in the ways it resembles combo-heavy brawlers, it is still a personality, with Sketch's arsenal of gut-jarring gymnastic moves, which open a whole new arena of play (downwards attacks) normally not explored in this type of game. I credit his ability with the pipes to all that pencil carbon. The item system doesn't seem as successful, but few veteran Sketch Turners, or I daresay their enemies, will forget Ratley and the cartoonishly appropriate ways in which the player could use items to trade off health versus burst power and to do so in or out of combat (although sometimes there is a "best" solution for a given situation with items, which not only requires some foresight but also dispels some of the potential of the item system to be more flexible, not to mention a few more types of items could have been welcome without overwhelming the player with choices). The panels evoke a scope much wider than their actual boundaries.

I want to here about the issues with KC Munchkin too. Is it the moving dots?

I think you won't find that "here," because this is the wrong generation and the wrong system!

[BIL]

Japanese developed games once supplanted Western-developed ones...well, the tides also come in and go out.

To clarify, I'm not talking about cyclical shifts in global popularity between East and West with that comment - I mean specifically replacing Hiroyuki Owaku and Masahiro Ito with KoRnFaN_666 because he's a big fan and will do a great job with your series for a bargain price.

[Ganelon]

What's the Chakan consensus around here?

One of the best sidescrollers around for me. Very smart boss design (impossible to win through attrition; very easy with minimal reflexes necessary when you know exactly what to do). The game rewards experience: the mazes are trivial once you know where to go and the grappling hook areas are probably very frustrating until you get used to the physics. On the down side, I'm not really a fan of the grim music or the depressing visuals. I suppose this is one of the rare games I enjoy for the mechanics than for the atmosphere. I've said it before but I'm a big fan of all the US sidescrollers that used variants of the same engine, such as X-Men and Generations Lost.

I think JP MD games are on average much higher quality than western titles but there are plenty of great examples of the latter too: Battletoads, Disney's movie games, Mega Turrican, Spider-Man, X-Men 2... I was a big Comix Zone fan when it was released but lost most of my interest since then due to the unappealing characters/enemies. I've also never really liked Ecco but I'm surprised more folks weren't fans; based on mechanics, I'd say it was a forerunner of the survival horror genre that grew so popular later in the decade. Maybe guns really do make all the difference.

[BIL]

I've also never really liked Ecco but I'm surprised more folks weren't fans; based on mechanics, I'd say it was a forerunner of the survival horror genre that grew so popular later in the decade. Maybe guns really do make all the difference.

My thoughts exactly. ^_~ As you can tell from that post I didn't like Kolibri at all, though.

I actually have both MD Eccos in JP format, stumbled across some NOS copies for next to nothing and thought it'd be a shame to pass them up. The white/blue motif of their packaging is quite lovely too. Both very involving games, they have a nice balance of relaxation (since you can generally take your time going about things in each level/mission) and tension (since you're on borrowed time whenever not near an air source, as well as the claustrophobic view forcing you to rely on sonar whether in tunnels or open water). The first game unfortunately has that tinny "Genesis" sound, but it's easy enough to ignore. The second's music is genuinely excellent, haunting at times.

[Ed Oscuro]

Japanese developed games once supplanted Western-developed ones...well, the tides also come in and go out.

To clarify, I'm not talking about cyclical shifts in global popularity between East and West with that comment - I mean specifically replacing Hiroyuki Owaku and Masahiro Ito with KoRnFaN_666 because he's a big fan and will do a great job with your series for a bargain price.

I　ｆｉｇｕｒｅ，　ｂｕｔ　Ｉ wanted the larger context clear for anybody else watching these posts.

About Ecco's problems, I always thought the FMV sequences and the nice CD music versions helped make the game. Ｉｔ　ｊｕｓｔ　ｄｏｅｓｎ＇ｔ　ｗｏｒｋ　ｗｉｔｈ　ｔｈｅ　ｏｒｉｇｉｎａｌ　Ｇｅｎｅｓｉｓ　ｖｅｒｓｉｏｎ。

[BIL]

Yeah, this does kind of sting: Open Ocean cartridge* versus CD. >_<

It'd be easy enough to mute the TV and put on Songs of Time in Foobar with an appropriate tracklist and "repeat current track" mode, but that sort of thing always feels a bit lame to me. Still found the game plenty atmospheric despite the weak soundtrack, though. Downright creepy in places (I hate even seeing Arctic Spiders and Dunkleosteuses, ugh).

*bonus - the JP cart's music in that stage is worse!

[Ed Oscuro]

*bonus - the JP cart's music in that stage is worse!

"FOO FIGHTERS FAIL TO FIND FRITO-LAYS AT THE FIVE-AND-DIME"

[trap15]

he's a big fan and will do a great job with your series for a bargain price.

*dies inside*

[louisg]

I think JP MD games are on average much higher quality than western titles but there are plenty of great examples of the latter too: Battletoads, Disney's movie games, Mega Turrican, Spider-Man, X-Men 2... I was a big Comix Zone fan when it was released but lost most of my interest since then due to the unappealing characters/enemies. I've also never really liked Ecco but I'm surprised more folks weren't fans; based on mechanics, I'd say it was a forerunner of the survival horror genre that grew so popular later in the decade. Maybe guns really do make all the difference.

I'd draw a big distinction though between European and American games. The styles are recognizably different-- everything from how the game mechanics feel to art and music styles. Definitely there were some great European games, especially by the time you start getting stuff like Flashback. I also enjoyed Mega Turrican a lot, though there are some cheesy spots where things could've been tuned up a bit.

I want to here about the issues with KC Munchkin too. Is it the moving dots?

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH KC MUNCHKIN!

OK, so re: Kid Chameleon: I haven't played it recently enough to give a blow-by-blow, but I remember it being way overly long for a game without saves, and feeling pretty repeat-y by the end and maybe a bit inconsistent...? But this is all going from memory. I'd have to revisit it to give a good answer here. I can't say I didn't enjoy it, though-- it was one of my more fondly-remembered early Genesis experiences along with games like Decap Attack.

[Ganelon]

I actually don't see an obvious disparity between US and Euro games and never knew the difference when I was younger. It was pretty easy to spot JP anime-esque colorful art styles but most western games had the same lengthy mechanics, sprawling levels, gritty visuals, and above average difficulty. If there are any specific examples of differences in style between US and EU on MD, I'd be interested in hearing them.

Flashback (EU) takes a lot of inspiration from Prince of Persia (US), just as Generations Lost (US, and Blackthorne if you count the 32X) did the same with Flashback. I wouldn't say US or EU games were any better than the other on MD.

[louisg]

I actually don't see an obvious disparity between US and Euro games and never knew the difference when I was younger. It was pretty easy to spot JP anime-esque colorful art styles but most western games had the same lengthy mechanics, sprawling levels, gritty visuals, and above average difficulty. If there are any specific examples of differences in style between US and EU on MD, I'd be interested in hearing them.

I'd say these are some key European game features:

- Pixel shading style was very lush-- lots of chrome and "rounded" looking shading. At the same time, maybe it was more punk or undisciplined: Though the use of the limited palettes were fantastic, cutscenes seemed to often feature people at awkward angles. Check out a game like Flink, or Risky Woods. I think US artists tended to be more traditional. More of a "painted" look and less of a "pixeled" one.

- Techno / synthpop soundtracks. I actually think something similar happened with music: Fantastic use of limited sound hardware (especially on systems like the Amiga), but the compositions were simpler. Japanese compositions seemed the most complex, often times being very jazzy. With a lot of US releases, you got rock Or random marimba-sounding shit because those were the only patches the musician could figure out. OMG, I spoke to one musician who admitted to randomizing the instrument until it was a sound they liked.

- US devs leaned more towards simulation-based styles (think about the popular EA titles like Desert Strike). European devs leaned more towards arcade/action. And if the authors were coming from the computer world, the European devs had a huge head start on developing action games. If you look at what computer games are popular where, this explains a lot: Tape drives were popular overseas, but that prevented you from playing huge RPGs like Ultima, or adventure games, which were all a big part of the computer game experience in the US where disk drives were both common and necessary.

- Gameplay as a rule seemed a little slowed down a lot of the time (think Gods). I always wondered if this was due to growing up playing 50hz ports of 60hz games

- I think in companies like Psygnosis there was a huge style-over-substance push. Games like Shadow of the Beast were technically very complex, but gameplay-wise a bit lacking. I think the same is true of games by Bitmap Bros or Scavenger. Slickness was dialed up to 11.

I think as that generation went on, the styles merged more.

EDIT: As another example, this isn't on Genesis, but the book on Amiga history "The Future Was Here" has a couple great chapters. One was on Cinemaware, and one on Psygnosis. It contrasts both the coding and design style and uses it to generalize about European and American approaches to development: American game programming tended to be higher-level and more "by the book". I'm convinced this is a large reason IBM PC games underperformed to a large degree, except for "sceney" creations. European game coders tended to be low-level and aggressive. In fact, I ended up speaking briefly with a US Genesis programmer on Facebook who said that "by the Genesis, you could use C to write games". I would guess that something as high-performance as Risky Woods, on the other hand, is in assembly.

[Edmond Dantes]

What's the Chakan consensus around here?

One of the best sidescrollers around for me. Very smart boss design (impossible to win through attrition; very easy with minimal reflexes necessary when you know exactly what to do). The game rewards experience: the mazes are trivial once you know where to go and the grappling hook areas are probably very frustrating until you get used to the physics. On the down side, I'm not really a fan of the grim music or the depressing visuals. I suppose this is one of the rare games I enjoy for the mechanics than for the atmosphere. I've said it before but I'm a big fan of all the US sidescrollers that used variants of the same engine, such as X-Men and Generations Lost.

I liked Chakan, but in contrast to dude above, I actually found Chakan kind of on the easy side. Once you know how to stockpile potions, the game becomes a cakewalk. And all "hard" mode does is make you take slightly more damage.

Also, game gives you a better ending for losing to the final boss. what's up with that?

[null1024]

a US Genesis programmer on Facebook who said that "by the Genesis, you could use C to write games"

OMG, I spoke to one musician who admitted to randomizing the instrument until it was a sound they liked.

I am ashamed of my country.
Genesis games that were written in C are dog slow, a prime example being Sonic Spinball. And randomizing instruments wouldn't be bad in and of itself, except for the fact that I'm pretty sure they made no attempt to figure out how FM actually works so they could make patches by hand.


siiiiigh

[Ed Oscuro]

Why spend time learning when you can meet your deadline instead?

The future (and the past) belong to the dedicated amateurs, but the Euro-style of shading louisg mentions above (which I wouldn't say is just a regional thing) is interesting. Being well-rounded or just getting things done on time shows "the perfect is the enemy of the good" in action. Lots of people used their experience in the demoscene to continue to make good work for games, although I noticed two of the Future Crew have spent recent years composing soundtracks for Popcap Games. Anyway, we tend to treat "the system" as the endpoint of development, rightly so because our money is involved, but for everybody involved in the production of games, they're to a large extent a stepping-stone to bigger things.

[ST Dragon]

Heh, just exaggerating for Headline News effect. (I remember my uncle telling me in hushed shock about this GTA III game "where you get points for raping people!")

Although Mr. Wolfman does seem to be going commando ala Dracula X. The dude in the lower-left appears to be cowering in fear of his lycanthropic todger.



On a more serious note, I always loved how the fishman over Wolfy's right shoulder appears to have just been socked right in his frickin' eye. \m/

Ahahhah!! Indeed it does have indirect sexual innuendos, but I don't remember Dracula X going commando?

Actually this cover follows the typical stereotype of most 80s - 90s game covers, where the protagonist is placed in the center of the fore-ground scene, while all the antagonist chaps are placed in the back-ground & all around, impinging & threatening him. But in many cases, the main hero is actually more sinister, threatening, ominous and fearful looking than the bad guys them selves portraited in the covers, who cower in fear by his presence alone!

Some other great examples of this theme:

[BIL]

Hagane's Super Famicom box is another fine example of the classic "lone foregrounded hero VS rogue's gallery" motif!

Ahahhah!! Indeed it does have indirect sexual innuendos, but I don't remember Dracula X going commando?

Dracula X: Rondo's werewolf shows his bald peepee when he's beaten and loses his fur - and since this enemy is a common foe in Dracula X: Nocturne, you can have six naked lycanthropes onstage at once! Apparently his weiner was censored in either the Wii or PSP versions, something like that. I dunno, I've not played either.

[ST Dragon]

Hagane's Super Famicom box is another fine example of the classic "lone foregrounded hero VS rogue's gallery" motif!

Wow! I've been intending to look up for a higher res cover of Hagane for some time now. Thanks!

Ahahhah!! Indeed it does have indirect sexual innuendos, but I don't remember Dracula X going commando?

Dracula X: Rondo's werewolf shows his bald peepee when he's beaten and loses his fur - and since this enemy is a common foe in Dracula X: Nocturne, you can have six naked lycanthropes onstage at once! Apparently his weiner was censored in either the Wii or PSP versions, something like that. I dunno, I've not played either.

Cool! I had never noticed that!
Indeed the Japanese have always been a bit perverted when it comes to games & anime!

On a side note. If you see the entire Japanese Altered Beast cover, you can notice a lot more dudes cowering in fear on the left, like that dude with the mouth wide open and the frightened snake, which is only logical as our lycanthrope chap has obviously been working out hard and pumpin' iron at the gym!

[BIL]

Oh nice - I didn't know the MD jacket was a gatefold. It's actually a really cool bit of artwork, in a totally unhinged 80s fantasy way.