XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Smashbro29]

No one else has any settings to try for component?

[austin532]

So... 1080p is never going to be fixed, I imagine. So theres no way I'm buying this. What scaler can do 1080p properly (i.e. integer scaling with even scalines)? Main thing I'd use this for is SNES & N64.. anything else that works would be a bonus (Saturn, DC, Wii).

Thanks in advance.

It's not that bad really. A 1080p monitor is just going to upscale the 720p input that it's receiving from the Mini. It's not like the process introduces a lot of lag or anything.

Thats setup is not for me. If I'm paying hundreds of pounds for an external scaler, I don't want to be using my TV's scaler for half the job, resulting in less than ideal results.

Bu thanks for the info!

The only way to get even scanlines whille outputting in 1080p for now is to use Smart X2. The screen size is a little but smaller but it's still looks fine.

[RowanDDR]

The only way to get even scanlines whille outputting in 1080p for now is to use Smart X2. The screen size is a little but smaller but it's still looks fine.

Looks fine? I thought the general consensus was that it didn't look good...

Scanlines do not work correctly on 1080p output mode (because only 1 instead of 2 in every 4 lines are darkened, which doesn't look good).
(cite: http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/XRGB ... AMEMEISTER)

Does the same "problem" exist in Smart X2 mode?

I don't mind a smaller viewport, thats a normal byproduct of integer scaling on a fixed resolution panel (this is, at least, when the panel's horizontal resolution isn't an exact multiple of the source's horizontal resolution). For my personal taste, "looking good" means integer scaling and scanlines which are the same number of pixels tall as the lines of graphics. ZSNES can do it, MAME can do it (with cleanstretch patch or custom bezels), and I simply want a hardware scaler that can do it for my real consoles too. But there is no such thing? Hmm..

[Ed Oscuro]

The wrinkle in "integer scaling" is that there are plenty of systems (maybe the majority?) that don't actually output 240p. So forcing the scaler and set to display the full 240 lines of resolution gives you a nice 5x scale factor in 1200p (woohoo!) to fill the screen...but you still don't get the full image because some of those systems' signals, if you force them onscreen, will just be displaying distracting garbage (lots of people discovering this with the NES). You even get different resolution mode possibilities on the same console (even among the 240p-ish ones)!

Personally, I would think that on a nice large screen that the disparity in screen boundaries wouldn't bother me much - we've already had years of experience playing games on TVs with overly aggressive underscan settings as it is. It's not perfect though.

Nearest neighbor scaling is ridiculed from time to time for making some lines thicker than others - in practice I usually don't see a big deal with it (e.g. in a system like MAME) where it allows the screen to be filled and the target resolution (e.g. 1080p) is usually high enough that rows of virtual (i.e., original source) pixels afforded extra display rows don't appear to be significantly thicker. I'm not sure that it would matter even on 1080p to somebody playing a demanding shooting game where placement is key - though would be interested to hear somebody's thoughts on that.

[opt2not]

Alright, this weekend I spent a little time playing with my Gamecube. My main goal is to have GBA and GBC games running through the cube's Gameboy Player, on both an LCD via the XRGB-mini, as well as CRT's like my PVM monitors.

I recently picked up a Gamecube VGA cable (modded from a D-terminal cable by beharius). I opted to buy his cable because he already modded it, and it made it really easy for me to alter the mod to a SCART connection.
I followed the mmmonkey guide on modifying a d-terminal cable, skipping the parts that were already done of course. Changing this back to VGA is trivial, I figured if I ever needed to revert it back I could do so easily.

Anyway, I used composite video as sync as stated in the guide, connected to my XRGB-mini. Here is the outcome (I'm playing through Harmony of Dissonance these days) :











Here's a look at Link's Awakening for the GBC:





The picture is definitely better than what I had running before (s-video), and it's great to play the gameboy games from the comfort of my 55" plasma.
But you can see it's not completely top-end, because I am only able to get 480i working, on both the mini and my PVM's, I can seem to get my Gamecube to sync in progressive scan. I have everything wired according to the mmmonkey site, so I'm not sure if it's my wiring work, or if the way I'm using the c-sync. My Mini's SCART cable has a stripper installed inside as well...

Any ideas about the Progressive issue?

[Ed Oscuro]

I thought it's been stated that the GB Player will only do 480i, and there's also some stuttering (framerate mismatch between the GBA and NTSC, with the "beat" about every 5 seconds if what I've read is accurate).

Phonedork claims to have gotten 480p here but he's not aware of the stuttering. It certainly looks like he's gotten 480p though.

[Fudoh]

Cube + GB Player works fine in 480p.

You're probably trying to get RGBs in 480p, but that won't work. In 480p the D/A chip on the cable will only output in either YPbPr (component) or RGBHV. So you need to take RGBHV and add a sync combiner for use on the Mini (or just use component). In 15khz RGB mode you can use composite video for sync, but in 31khz mode you have to get H/V sync from the D/A chip.

On your GBA screenshots you're using the wrong scanlines (odd instead or even). On 480i you can't change this, but on 480p you can. (EDIT: if you zoom in the GBA image using the zoom mode on the GB player you cannot get properly scanlines anymore)

with the "beat" about every 5 seconds if what I've read is accurate

more like every second.

[eightbitminiboss]

I thought it's been stated that the GB Player will only do 480i, and there's also some stuttering (framerate mismatch between the GBA and NTSC, with the "beat" about every 5 seconds if what I've read is accurate).

Phonedork claims to have gotten 480p here but he's not aware of the stuttering. It certainly looks like he's gotten 480p though.

Been running 480p on GBP ever since I got my component cables.

[Konsolkongen]

The stutter is a result of the GB and GBA running at a slightly lower refresh-rate than standard 59.94Hz. And having to preserve the option of link-cable play they had to keep the GB player running in this retarded refresh rate, which then causes stutter due to the needed framerate conversion to proper 59.94Hz :/ They should have given us the option of increasing the speed a tiny, tiny bit to 59.94Hz, which would lead to stutter-free gameplay. I doubt anyone would notice the increase in speed anyway. It's not like we are talking a ~17% difference like 50 and 60Hz...

Now, why they chose to ruin the Super Gameboy this way is a mystery to me since it doesn't have the Link cable port anyway...

The GBA player has 480p, but it doesn't really look that good. Scanlines help a lot, but the picture is still way too soft for my liking Still it's really nice to play the GBA games on the telly, since it has a lot of really great games I need to get me one of those Extron Emotia units so I can convert 480p to 240p, which I believe would give a near perfect image

[eightbitminiboss]

The stutter is a result of the GB and GBA running at a slightly lower refresh-rate than standard 59.94Hz. And having to preserve the option of link-cable play they had to keep the GB player running in this retarded refresh rate, which then causes stutter due to the needed framerate conversion to proper 59.94Hz :/ They should have given us the option of increasing the speed a tiny, tiny bit to 59.94Hz, which would lead to stutter-free gameplay. I doubt anyone would notice the increase in speed anyway. It's not like we are talking a ~17% difference like 50 and 60Hz...

Now, why they chose to ruin the Super Gameboy this way is a mystery to me since it doesn't have the Link cable port anyway...

The GBA player has 480p, but it doesn't really look that good. Scanlines help a lot, but the picture is still way too soft for my liking Still it's really nice to play the GBA games on the telly, since it has a lot of really great games I need to get me one of those Extron Emotia units so I can convert 480p to 240p, which I believe would give a near perfect image

The game speed on the Super Game Boy was fixed in the 2nd version only released in Japan, and that had a link cable port too...

[Fudoh]

game speed on the Super Game Boy was fixed in the 2nd version

didn't know that. Thanks for the info!

[Konsolkongen]

I've never heard that. Maybe the difference in the refresh-rate isn't enough to cause problems when playing with link cables?

I recently tried Daytona USA CCE on the Saturn in system link with a friend of mine. His Saturn was a modified PAL, so slightly off refresh-rate in "60Hz", and mine is a JAP system, and we never encountered a problem when playing. It's possible that the connection resets between the rounds, and that playing the game with more laps would have caused problems eventually. Who knows

[Smashbro29]

The stutter is a result of the GB and GBA running at a slightly lower refresh-rate than standard 59.94Hz. And having to preserve the option of link-cable play they had to keep the GB player running in this retarded refresh rate, which then causes stutter due to the needed framerate conversion to proper 59.94Hz :/ They should have given us the option of increasing the speed a tiny, tiny bit to 59.94Hz, which would lead to stutter-free gameplay. I doubt anyone would notice the increase in speed anyway. It's not like we are talking a ~17% difference like 50 and 60Hz...

Now, why they chose to ruin the Super Gameboy this way is a mystery to me since it doesn't have the Link cable port anyway...

The GBA player has 480p, but it doesn't really look that good. Scanlines help a lot, but the picture is still way too soft for my liking Still it's really nice to play the GBA games on the telly, since it has a lot of really great games I need to get me one of those Extron Emotia units so I can convert 480p to 240p, which I believe would give a near perfect image

There's a pretty simple mod to fix the speed on the super gameboy. http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread ... underclock

I really wish someone would come out with a mod or a cheat code to cut the inherit input lag and clock differences out of the Game Boy Player.

I'm starting to notice it's nearly impossible to get 480p looking good or near it because the colors are either too saturated or too washed out.

I think it's because it's component. I'd love if I could make a converter component to "RGBHV" (I think?) and I'd make them that specialized VGA cable and then run it through my extron RGB 201 and into the RGB port on the mini.

It and the composite inputs really seem like the only ones that are worth a damn on the thing.

[opt2not]

So you need to take RGBHV and add a sync combiner for use on the Mini (or just use component). In 15khz RGB mode you can use composite video for sync, but in 31khz mode you have to get H/V sync from the D/A chip.

Thanks Fudoh, I had a feeling this was the case. Damn, was hoping this would be an easier mod without having to introduce the combiner.
Ok, so if I built a sync-combiner circuit, I can still wire it to c-sync on my SCART and it still can be used for 15khz RGB and 31khz? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

On your GBA screenshots you're using the wrong scanlines (odd instead or even). On 480i you can't change this, but on 480p you can. (EDIT: if you zoom in the GBA image using the zoom mode on the GB player you cannot get properly scanlines anymore)

Yeah I noticed that, which I why I'd like to get the progressive scan working.

Is this still the right guide to go off for the sync combiner?
http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.html

Have you guys been able to fit this into a SCART connector?

[Ed Oscuro]

Lots of good information here, thanks everyone! Guess I need to go get the Japanese SGB (if I don't already have one...man, inventory isn't any fun!)

[eightbitminiboss]

Lots of good information here, thanks everyone! Guess I need to go get the Japanese SGB (if I don't already have one...man, inventory isn't any fun!)

Just remember this is the one you want: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Game ... Game_Boy_2

[Ed Oscuro]

Yep, I remember seeing those on eBay. Never realized there was a special cachet they carried, apart from the link!

[beharius]

You need a Kenzei for both modes, no need to ruin your vga cable.

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/sh ... post739980

So you can use scart directly for 480i goodness on your TV...
And 480p through scart to XRGB...

So you need to take RGBHV and add a sync combiner for use on the Mini (or just use component). In 15khz RGB mode you can use composite video for sync, but in 31khz mode you have to get H/V sync from the D/A chip.

Thanks Fudoh, I had a feeling this was the case. Damn, was hoping this would be an easier mod without having to introduce the combiner.
Ok, so if I built a sync-combiner circuit, I can still wire it to c-sync on my SCART and it still can be used for 15khz RGB and 31khz? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

On your GBA screenshots you're using the wrong scanlines (odd instead or even). On 480i you can't change this, but on 480p you can. (EDIT: if you zoom in the GBA image using the zoom mode on the GB player you cannot get properly scanlines anymore)

Yeah I noticed that, which I why I'd like to get the progressive scan working.

Is this still the right guide to go off for the sync combiner?
http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.html

Have you guys been able to fit this into a SCART connector?

[darcagn]

Is this still the right guide to go off for the sync combiner?
http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.html

Have you guys been able to fit this into a SCART connector?

That's the one that I use for Dreamcast, I build it into the VGA box though.

You can likely fit it into a SCART connector if you're crafty about it, personally I made it so that it can sit on my finger (and with no PCB). But if you do that, then you'll also have to run vsync and hsync through the SCART cable, then it will be converted to c-sync which you'll connect to the c-video pin.

Ok, so if I built a sync-combiner circuit, I can still wire it to c-sync on my SCART and it still can be used for 15khz RGB and 31khz? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

I'm not familiar with the Gamecube and VGA, but on the Dreamcast, the system still generates h-sync and v-sync even when in 15KHz RGB mode, and this can be combined into c-sync and used to display a picture (which is what my modified VGA box does). If the Gamecube does still generate h-sync and v-sync when in 15KHz mode, then you should be fine with that circuit (or with a Kenzei).

[Fudoh]

If you want a DIY circuit, use this one: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 63#p867063

It's easier and it's confirmed working fine with the DC on the Mini.

[keropi]

just a reminder, you can mod the old SGB with the correct speed, all you need is a crystal, a resistor and a couple of caps:







I have some pics here with my rendition of this improvement: http://s125.photobucket.com/user/restqp ... t=3&page=1

[PunisherHD]

Hello there, I'm running XRGB mini here on Sega Megadrive (european).

Everything worked well for monthes, until my XRGB decided to display garbage screen:
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/npegn7qkgn6331g/PW4jsmX1q6

I've tried downgrade/upgrade firmware (from 1.07 to 1.10), several input sources (analog input, RGG, HDMI)... everytime I get this scrambled pink display with vertical lines, I've tried many settings in the OSD too, but it makes no difference ...
The OSD and menus works well, but the input display is totally glitched. The sound works btw ...

It happened suddenly (one day it was working, the next day it was faulty).
Anyone already saw this ? My unit is out of warranty, am I condemned to buy a new one ?

[CkRtech]

Hey all -

I have the absolute *slightest* bit of a hook in the image at the very top of the screen when running a NESRGB on the Framemeister. It could be that this is a question better left to that thread, but I was wondering if I can just tweak it via the xrgb or if I need to look toward doing sync-related changes prior to the xrgb.

[Fudoh]

probably the latter, since the Mini doesn't have AFC settings anymore as the XRGB-3 did.

[opt2not]

You need a Kenzei for both modes, no need to ruin your vga cable.

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/sh ... post739980

So you can use scart directly for 480i goodness on your TV...
And 480p through scart to XRGB...

Heh, too late! I already went ahead and de-soldered the pins from the VGA plug and wired it to a SCART connector. The H & V lines are still there, nothing was completely destroyed or ruined. I just needed to tap the 12v line on the cable's IC for the switching pin on the SCART connector (pin 8 ). But this modification is easily reversible.

The Kenzei looks great, but I'm looking for a cheaper and simpler solution to get this working at the moment. If all fails, I can fall back on the Kenzei.

You can likely fit it into a SCART connector if you're crafty about it, personally I made it so that it can sit on my finger (and with no PCB). But if you do that, then you'll also have to run vsync and hsync through the SCART cable, then it will be converted to c-sync which you'll connect to the c-video pin.

Excellent, this is what I'm hoping to do.

I'm not familiar with the Gamecube and VGA, but on the Dreamcast, the system still generates h-sync and v-sync even when in 15KHz RGB mode, and this can be combined into c-sync and used to display a picture (which is what my modified VGA box does). If the Gamecube does still generate h-sync and v-sync when in 15KHz mode, then you should be fine with that circuit (or with a Kenzei).

If you want a DIY circuit, use this one: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 63#p867063

It's easier and it's confirmed working fine with the DC on the Mini.

Thanks guys. Fudoh, has anyone confirmed this circuit works on the Gamecube? I don't mind being the guinea-pig if not. I like that this circuit is pretty simple, and doesn't require any IC's. I should be able to get creative and fit this into a SCART plug.

[Fudoh]

Fudoh, has anyone confirmed this circuit works on the Gamecube?

I this exact circuit in a HD15 to MiniDin adapter on my Mini and it works with all sources I tried so far (no Gamecube though).

[airs]

I have my GC hooked up using the stock D-Terminal cable, plugged directly into the mini - is there some downside to this? So far I think it looks great.

[Fudoh]

For 480p RGBs gives better scaling results than using component.

[pyrotek85]

I have my GC hooked up using the stock D-Terminal cable, plugged directly into the mini - is there some downside to this? So far I think it looks great.

I think it looks great myself as well, but I know I don't have quite as sharp an eye for the finer picture details.

[Konsolkongen]

just a reminder, you can mod the old SGB with the correct speed, all you need is a crystal, a resistor and a couple of caps:

...

I was under the impression that the mod only corrected the sound which supposedly is slightly off. You get no stutter at all when playing GB games on your Super Gameboy now?

I have the crystal already since I was planning on doing the mod either way. Bonus if it fixes the stuttering