Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

[cody]

Anyone know what the voice samples in ESPrade are saying, especially JB's death yell?

[SavagePencil]

I guess Micomsoft is making a PC-88 mini?

http://micomsoft.co.jp/pcmini8801.html

[Creamy Goodness]

Are there any console exclusive shmups with noticable rank? I figured it would not really be necessary for a console game, but it can be an interesting game mechanic in itself.

[Kino]

Anyone know what the voice samples in ESPrade are saying, especially JB's death yell?

Late, but Cave was nice enough to transcribe all the dialogue here.

[cody]

Late, but Cave was nice enough to transcribe all the dialogue here.

Awesome, thanks so much!

[Lemnear]

Maybe a stupid question but I'm really curious about the answer.

How do you explain to a non-SHMUPS player why SHMUPS aren't shit?

Often people who don't play them have a rough opinion...then if it's one of those niche ones it's even worse.

[Lander]

Maybe a stupid question but I'm really curious about the answer.

How do you explain to a non-SHMUPS player why SHMUPS aren't shit?

Often people who don't play them have a rough opinion...then if it's one of those niche ones it's even worse.

Hmm, phrasing it as "aren't shit" feels a little loaded, as if the person being explained to is closed-minded and prejudiced.

If that's the type of individual you're dealing with, then weighing whether it's worth the bother should be step 1.
For instance, if the lead-up conversation contains a phrase like "I only play real video games like <soulless AAA franchise>", then you're probably better off letting them live in blissful ignorance.

But, if they're open to ideas, describing what you personally enjoy about the genre is a good start. I'd probably take the simplicity angle: Shmup gameplay is fundamentally easy to understand, so learning and improving at it is very tangible.

And then you start stacking complexity on top of that simplicity by way of game-specific mechanics like chaining, sealing, etc; since the base is simple, you can transfer that good-feeling core skill between different experiences, and not get bored since each one has something new and interesting to figure out.

[Lemnear]

Maybe a stupid question but I'm really curious about the answer.

How do you explain to a non-SHMUPS player why SHMUPS aren't shit?

Often people who don't play them have a rough opinion...then if it's one of those niche ones it's even worse.

Hmm, phrasing it as "aren't shit" feels a little loaded, as if the person being explained to is closed-minded and prejudiced.

If that's the type of individual you're dealing with, then weighing whether it's worth the bother should be step 1.
For instance, if the lead-up conversation contains a phrase like "I only play real video games like <soulless AAA franchise>", then you're probably better off letting them live in blissful ignorance.

But, if they're open to ideas, describing what you personally enjoy about the genre is a good start. I'd probably take the simplicity angle: Shmup gameplay is fundamentally easy to understand, so learning and improving at it is very tangible.

And then you start stacking complexity on top of that simplicity by way of game-specific mechanics like chaining, sealing, etc; since the base is simple, you can transfer that good-feeling core skill between different experiences, and not get bored since each one has something new and interesting to figure out.

I was asking because I don't know if you've ever talked about it.

Well I had the chance to have a few people try out several Arcade/Retro games, 2 ex-pro gamers (one of CoD and one of Fortnite/Magic Arena), 2 casual-gamers, a normal gamer (Final Fantasy/Dark Souls/Magic Arena) and a non-gamer.

A sort of social experiment, a test of the response to shmups/arcade on people who don't play them or who played a few years ago, and see their reactions, also because I see that those who frequent the genre are people who already know it quite well, so I found it interesting to experiment this thing with a mixed-gender group of people who are mostly strangers to the genre.

With the exception of the COD pro-player who snubbed anything that wasn't Bethesda in 4K and 144fps (blissful ignorance LV9000) the others were more satisfied... BUT, that level of satisfaction changed based on how many details were provided beforehand about the game, more information corresponded to a higher approval rating, even the existence of a community contributed in part to the interest, while if taken individually without explanation, the reaction was lukewarm. It seems that the general curiosity is more of an exploratory type than to discover the mechanics so.

Test Result:

• It seems that the story behind a game and its team is a sort of added value to the work itself, and everyone except the "Pros" (and the non-gamer) were intrigued by it.

• With the exception of the ex-pros, design and music were MUCH more important in judging the game.

• Casual-gamers appreciated the Cute'Em Up and the low-difficulty horizontal console SHMUPS more (Gleylancer, Harmful Park, but and also Penguin Kun Wars and Valkyrie no Densetsu).

• Too dense and confusing graphics (Ketsui/DOJ) did not appeal to casual gamers, while simpler graphics from the early 90s were loved by both casual gamers and gamers.

• The older but very famous games have generally been snubbed by everyone, considering them something for boomers.

• The non-gamer appreciated games that were immediate and simple to enjoy more (1000 Miglia, The Ultimate 11).

• Specifying that a game is "rare and almost forgotten" (example: Thunder Dragon 1 and NMK/UPL in general) somewhat increased interest in gamers and casual gamers, while it aroused disgust in the "Pro" group.

• For some reason IREM/Nazca graphics appeal to EVERYONE indiscriminately (especially GunForce 2 and In the Hunt). PS: apparently EVERYONE knows Metal Slug anyway.

• SHMUPS with 3D PS1 graphics did not appeal to anyone .

• The more modern 3D SHMUPS on the other hand convinced everyone! at least on the graphics side..

It seems that the modern high profile player is the absolute evil not only for retro/arcade but practically for the entire gaming industry, that is, that category that continues to play "that kind of games" just because they are graphically stunning (according to modern standards) and that as soon as they become out of fashion they are cancelled in favor of a new game that is an exact copy of the previous one.
Paradoxically, casual-gamers and the gamer have been much more open-minded in trying games, but above all in not giving an approximate and superficial judgment.
I know it's a small sample of people but it was fun to do this experiment (without them knowing) .
The thing that made me most happy was that some of them continued to play some of the things I had them try, even after they got home .

[Rastan78]

Interesting read. Thanks for sharing. I wonder how they would respond to witnessing some high level play or at least a 1CC done in person?

[Lander]

Cripes Lem, are you a student of sociology? That's downright rigorous for a self-titled stupid question

A reasonable conclusion - the mainstream local minima has created an ugly "new or bust" mindset. I can't help but wonder if and when that bubble will burst, since the snake has eaten so much of its own tail that remastering a game from one generation back (Last of Us, Horizon) is considered a legitimate non-joke thing to do.

Interesting to hear that the oft-maligned casual sect is more open minded than the supposed hardcore. But then, I suppose that's significantly effected by how you define 'hardcore'; there's 'hardcore for the brand' which implies drinking the poisoned kool-aid and following the industry narrative, and then there's 'hardcore for the medium' like our little cadre of enthusiasts, where it's about the content itself rather than the stage play surrounding it.

To add an extra datapoint, I've found older 'ex-gamers' to be quite receptive to shmups. My 60-something brother-in-law used to be into arcades back in the day but ended up aging out of it, and is generally up for a credit or two if there happens to be an attract mode running. I was surprised to find out he'd started dabbling in MAME of his own accord in recent years - it just came up in conversation one day, after years of my being the family's seemingly-sole "gamer sibling".

I expect receptive folks would be impressed by high-level play, since it's easy to grasp the difficulty of shmups, and by extension to appreciate seeing them played well. Case in point, Bro pointed at my crappy halfway-through Slap Fight hi-score and exclaimed "that's impossible!" before I taught him the Stage 1 pacifist warp trick

With the exception of the COD pro-player who snubbed anything that wasn't Bethesda in 4K and 144fps (blissful ignorance LV9000) the others were more satisfied...

Bethesda?! 4K/144 snobbery I can understand, but that's a low-tier publisher to pin a standard of quality to

[Lemnear]

Interesting read. Thanks for sharing. I wonder how they would respond to witnessing some high level play or at least a 1CC done in person?

If only I were good enough to do it haha, but I get anxious if I know they're watching me..and this also includes recording gameplay ..even though I could do them infinite times.
Maybe it's good to show the maximum potential/level of the game, but then I don't know if they would have wanted to try it, maybe it was too intimidating...then it depends on the game obviously.

A reasonable conclusion - the mainstream local minima has created an ugly "new or bust" mindset. I can't help but wonder if and when that bubble will burst, since the snake has eaten so much of its own tail that remastering a game from one generation back (Last of Us, Horizon) is considered a legitimate non-joke thing to do.

Why remaster a game that came out on PC in 2020 (Horizon) or 2023 (TLOU) ? But then they are games with ZERO real replayability...I may be a catastrophist, but the video game industry is not doing well .

Interesting to hear that the oft-maligned casual sect is more open minded than the supposed hardcore. But then, I suppose that's significantly effected by how you define 'hardcore'; there's 'hardcore for the brand' which implies drinking the poisoned kool-aid and following the industry narrative, and then there's 'hardcore for the medium' like our little cadre of enthusiasts, where it's about the content itself rather than the stage play surrounding it.

By "PRO" I didn't just mean hardcore gamers, but literally ex-pros with paying sponsors who competed in eSports circuits (and one with a twisted mentality based on EGO and the humiliation of opponents).
Let's say that for those who played something more "arcadish-pixelated" during their childhood, they were naturally intrigued, It's as if a lost memory has cleared up for them and they become children again.

To add an extra datapoint, I've found older 'ex-gamers' to be quite receptive to shmups. My 60-something brother-in-law used to be into arcades back in the day but ended up aging out of it, and is generally up for a credit or two if there happens to be an attract mode running. I was surprised to find out he'd started dabbling in MAME of his own accord in recent years - it just came up in conversation one day, after years of my being the family's seemingly-sole "gamer sibling".

They were between 23 and 35, with mostly basic knowledge of arcades (only the most famous titles, like Metal Slug etc.).
Perhaps older people, having experienced the Arcade experience for longer first-hand, might find more interest in returning to it, there are a lot of them here on the forum.
The problem with younger modern gamers (in general) is that they have no roots...what are their roots? Online FPS? Single-Player-Blockbusters remakes? Minecraft?

I expect receptive folks would be impressed by high-level play, since it's easy to grasp the difficulty of shmups, and by extension to appreciate seeing them played well. Case in point, Bro pointed at my crappy halfway-through Slap Fight hi-score and exclaimed "that's impossible!" before I taught him the Stage 1 pacifist warp trick

It's true that many 1CCs are almost hypnotic, but sometimes they make the game seem more "possible" when it isn't haha...but this also gives the confidence to at least try!
However, Danmaku are harder to digest, the reduced hit-box seems to be a less intuitive thing than I thought .

With the exception of the COD pro-player who snubbed anything that wasn't Bethesda in 4K and 144fps (blissful ignorance LV9000) the others were more satisfied...

Bethesda?! 4K/144 snobbery I can understand, but that's a low-tier publisher to pin a standard of quality to

Inexplicable...if it's not Bethesda it's DMC-like stuff (thank goodness haha). But he hates FROM Software games

_____________________

The absurdity of the medium is how games have become infinitely more complex, but also incredibly easy to play, requiring no real manual skill (auto aim, infinite lives, hints everywhere etc.), even though they have complicated controls compared to Arcades.
This in a way strips games of their essence, making them "entertainment" instead of "fun".
That genuine simplicity that brings you to the lowest common denominator of instinctive fun has been lost, but maybe that's just me thinking that way.

[Lemnear]

SHMUPS (and other arcades and similar), which have PS4/PS5 cross-buy?

[ryu]

SHMUPS (and other arcades and similar), which have PS4/PS5 cross-buy?

Isn't that most PS4 games barring some exceptions? I think the PS5 is meant to be backwards compatible.

[Lemnear]

SHMUPS (and other arcades and similar), which have PS4/PS5 cross-buy?

Isn't that most PS4 games barring some exceptions? I think the PS5 is meant to be backwards compatible.

yes but this way you run the PS4 version on PS5, I mean games that when purchased, have TWO distinct versions together.
It's true that there is no difference, I think... but I found it irritating now with Raiden Nova, to find two separate versions, the III and IV Mikado instead were Cross-Buy.

[fruitbatsalad]

Are there any console exclusive shmups with noticable rank? I figured it would not really be necessary for a console game, but it can be an interesting game mechanic in itself.

Zanac is a classic example of this. From wikipedia: "the game automatically adjusts the difficulty level according to the player's skill level, rate of fire and the ship's current defensive status/capability."

[Steven]

SHMUPS (and other arcades and similar), which have PS4/PS5 cross-buy?

lol PS5 has games?

Slightly (and I really do mean slightly) more serious answer: some of the DLC for R-Type Final 2 works with Final 3 Evolved, so buying one gets you the other, but I am not sure if buying the download version of Final 2 gives you Final 3 Evolved. It probably doesn't because Granzella is weird.

I do believe that buying Super Stardust Portable also gives both PS4 and PS5 versions, but it's still just running in a PSP emulator either way... and Super Stardust Ultra is also on PS4 and better. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better. Seriously, go play it. It's really good, I promise. Portable is still good, but HD on PS3, Delta on Vita, and Ultra on PS4 are better. I know you've been looking for something with nice graphics, and Ultra is certainly that; if anything, it goes a little too crazy with the amount of particle effects, but Super Stardust Ultra is a very good game, which of course means that nobody played it.

[Lemnear]

SHMUPS (and other arcades and similar), which have PS4/PS5 cross-buy?

lol PS5 has games?

Slightly (and I really do mean slightly) more serious answer: some of the DLC for R-Type Final 2 works with Final 3 Evolved, so buying one gets you the other, but I am not sure if buying the download version of Final 2 gives you Final 3 Evolved. It probably doesn't because Granzella is weird.

I do believe that buying Super Stardust Portable also gives both PS4 and PS5 versions, but it's still just running in a PSP emulator either way... and Super Stardust Ultra is also on PS4 and better. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better. Seriously, go play it. It's really good, I promise. Portable is still good, but HD on PS3, Delta on Vita, and Ultra on PS4 are better. I know you've been looking for something with nice graphics, and Ultra is certainly that; if anything, it goes a little too crazy with the amount of particle effects, but Super Stardust Ultra is a very good game, which of course means that nobody played it.

Yes maybe that's the reason why I didn't make any "next-gen" jumps.

Maybe there is no difference (considering the type of games), but the download is divided, there is one for one version and also for the other in the library, so the file is not the same and they have slightly different weights.
Then specifically I don't know what really changes between a PS4 game that runs on PS5 and the exact same one but native for PS5.

[RuySan]

Bitwave ports are having a 30% sale off on Steam. Are they worth it over just playing the games on RetroArch? How are the leaderboards and input lag?

[Steven]

Then specifically I don't know what really changes between a PS4 game that runs on PS5 and the exact same one but native for PS5.

PS5 Raiden IV has double the input lag, so that's a change.

[bobrocks95]

No thread for the next wave of Retro-Bit Toaplan re-releases? Wondering if any of them are worth picking up. Slap Fight MD is particularly expensive, but I also haven't done my research to see what M2 has covered with ShotTriggers already.

[Creamy Goodness]

Does anybody know how to trigger the cakes in Deathsmiles 2X other than the one that comes when you fight Jitterbug? I've watched videos where they appear, but there is absolutely nothing out there that says how it is done.

[Jack Emerson]

I am considering purchasing mushihimesama on Steam, but I have a quick question about the game. Graphics aside, does Mushi paly/feel more similar to a DDP game or an Espgaluda game? Thanks.

[Lander]

I am considering purchasing mushihimesama on Steam, but I have a quick question about the game. Graphics aside, does Mushi paly/feel more similar to a DDP game or an Espgaluda game? Thanks.

Probably closer to DDP, since it lacks a prominent mechanical twist like Kakusei.

Though I consider it distinct from both, at least in Normal Mode; Mushi is a very fundamentals-based STG, and a 'medal collector' for scoring purposes.
The story's a bit different for Maniac / Ultra, since that introduces a DDP-style Hit Counter and drastically ups the bullet density.

Steam version's good - bit harder to finagle CRT emulation if you're into that sort of thing, but the improved fidelity is really nice versus the arcade ROM.

[Blinge]

2 questions:

Which is harder to 1cc: Darius Gaiden all up Z route (great thing, autofire on)

or Battle Bakraid Advanced course
?

2nd. How's MAME these days for later cave stuff like Futari?

Edit: I've not been into shmups for years, not like I was
apparently age has caught up to me because i'm dogshit now
bakraid kicks my ass up and down the street.. i used to be able to hang with garegga + batrider

[Lemnear]

What are the latest NEW Arcade SHMUPS? (2012~Today)
Not necessarily arcade-exclusive.
Obviously not counting re-releases of games already released.
And for non-shmups?

[Ice Beam]

What are the latest NEW Arcade SHMUPS? (2012~Today)

This thread lists arcade shmups up to 2020, to get you started.
viewtopic.php?t=11597

[Lemnear]

What are the latest NEW Arcade SHMUPS? (2012~Today)

This thread lists arcade shmups up to 2020, to get you started.
viewtopic.php?t=11597

Mmm, can a new re-release be considered as a new game? Is a new arrangement a new game? They could be considered as a remix of a song, but even then is it a new song? Or not?

[Lander]

How much new is new - philosophers have been arguing that one for a while easiest to go hardline and say no redos, no derivations, imo.

I see what you mean though, lots of familiar names showing up in there post-2012!

[Blinge]

NIHIL NOVA-BEAM

SUB 1 MIL POINTS
SOLE BOMBAAAAA

[Lemnear]

I think it's time to move on to something more "modern", I've explored ACA, M2, Taito etc.
It's time to move on to something like Caladrius Blaze, Akai Katana Shin (how's the input lag? I know there's City-Connection behind it so I'm asking) or the next Under Defeat...but even there I don't feel like taking it at D1...always for shitty-connection.
Where to start for a more "recent" SHMUP experience?
Yes I'll take Eschatos, but I'd prefer an experience of Arcade origin and not for consoles, I come from consoles and I was trying to distance myself from them in a certain sense.

EDIT: Wait a minute, neither Akai Katana nor Caladrius were born as Arcade, but on X360!

No really what's the most recent arcade porting (or released simultaneously) game that's come to us other than 2021's Cotton?