Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Sumez]

Man I need Crude Buster now... I've always dismissed it as semi-kusoge, despite my love for the awkward Data East charm.
Unfortunately, Karnov only shows up in the prequel.

[BIL]

Played a few more credits in Crude Buster, and managed to reach the last boss twice, but lost both times.
BIL, have you reach him? Absolutely fantastic, and bloody funny -- such a contrast between ridiculously weak versus brutal tough.

I haven't, but your report is exactly the motivation needed to ensure it'll be this weekend's mission.

I have an awful habit of leaving stuff half-finished, or even less. Had this game for like four years without getting around to giving it a proper go.

[__SKYe]

It's a really cool fight, and you'll likely chuckle once or twice the first time you reach it.

EDIT:

Was thinking about what you said before about the fat guys in yellow -- they should be able to be punished a bit more (or faster).
The one thing this game is missing, is a Technos-style single enemy finisher: either Combatribes' face-against-concrete slam, or Double Dragon/Kunio's mounting strikes.

[drauch]

I've watched those Crude Buster gifs so many goddamn times now. You've gotta get a full playthrough up of this one; you've already teased too much!

[BIL]

Was thinking about what you said before about the fat guys in yellow -- they should be able to be punished a bit more (or faster).
The one thing this game is missing, is a Technos-style single enemy finisher: either Combatribes' face-against-concrete slam, or Double Dragon/Kunio's mounting strikes.

It definitely could've used some kind of super/finisher throw - I'd like something executed out of a jump, ala Haggar's piledriver. I like to chuck 'em out of a jump anyway, for a little added oomph (however illusory).

I do enjoy the yellow bruisers' "slammed" animation, where they appear to be swimming frantically along the ground. Actually those guys have my favourite mannerisms in general (that deranged punching animation, lmao...) and they have a pretty decent mixup game too, with that elbow drop they'll sometimes unleash before you're in grab range. Feels pretty clutch grabbing 'em out of it.

I've watched those Crude Buster gifs so many goddamn times now. You've gotta get a full playthrough up of this one; you've already teased too much!

Might make a good Christmas project! I may give it a shot. Last holiday it was Holy Diver, a horror I've no desire to repeat. ;3

[__SKYe]

It definitely could've used some kind of super/finisher throw - I'd like something executed out of a jump, ala Haggar's piledriver. I like to chuck 'em out of a jump anyway, for a little added oomph (however illusory).

Yeah, a air-throw/piledriver of some sort would've worked nicely as well.
It's just that, in a game like this, with so many ways to destroy enemies beyond simply punching/jump-kicking them, such a finishing move would have been quite at home here.

Anyway, finally managed to clear it (with 2 continues only(?), this time), and of course the ending is nothing I didn't expect, given Data East's track record (like Dragonninja).

The good part it that I managed to reach the final boss rush in stage 6 (the dual stage 1 bosses) without continuing.
Messed a bit there, and lost 2 lives of the next continue on the next few bosses, and a whole continue against the final boss.
Still don't have much of a clue on how to beat it cleanly, but will try to figure it out on the next runs.

I am getting better at the other bosses, though, and even at the flamethrower dudes, which does make a difference in the lives lost, in the long run.

[BIL]

Nicely done! I can definitely imagine the bosses/boss rush being the real sticking points of a run... not much margin for error on several of them, as you said.

Always glad to see others giving DECO some love.

[__SKYe]

Yeah, definitely the high point, difficulty-wise on the entire game, but then again, I enjoy things like this (like the boss rushes in SOR, MegaMan, etc) -- it's where you really know if you've got your tactics for each boss down pat. No room fo mistakes, or end of level, health-refiling soda.

With a bit more practice (to really get the timing down), I can beat the rhino, the spider and the beast bosses. Interestingly enough, doubling the first boss makes them the hardest one in the boss rush (bar the final boss), in my opinion.
Their big sprite, coupled with the generous invincibility time they get when hit, plus the one they get when they touch you, and it makes for a rather brutal encounter. After beating one of them it does get rather trivial, but until then I might lose a life or more.

(Put in spoiler tags, since I don't know if you've reached this part yet)

Spoiler

Interestingly, the game forces you to beat the beast boss (Stage 5) without the advantage of the vertical planes during the boss rush.
I can beat him pretty much flawlessly on his stage (not counting the initial form, the white-haired dude) by going to the upper plane after I knock him down, and descending to the bottom one, grabbing him as he comes down, and repeating.
But in the rush you have to face him head on -- I can still beat him with the same accuracy as the spider and the rhino now, but it's still a bit harder, since not only can he damage by ramming you, but sometimes he'll pounce on you as well, and you'll have to mash to break free.

The tactics I use to beat a couple of the bosses (just what I use, there's likely better & prettier tactics):

Stage 4 (The Spider):

Spoiler

He'll descend on you 6 times (and go back up), and will drop on the 7th, everytime. Grab him as soon as he drops, and throw him.
He'll get up, and start walking towards you (I try to stand a bit away from him). Wait for him to stop moving, and roll towards him, going under the projectile he throws and landing in front of him (you can control the direction of the roll, even during mid-roll, to more or less stay stationary), and grab him.
The trick is to time the roll just right, so that you'll be able to go under the projectile, and land soon enough, so that he'll still be recovering from his attack, otherwise he'll attack you as you're getting close. Of course, you don't want to roll into him as well.
After doing this twice he'll go up the screen and repeat the initial behaviour.

Stage 5 (The Beast):

Spoiler

I can beat him by going away from him (to deplete his invincibility period), walking towards him (probably unnecessary, but I feel uneasy just standing there) and pressing grab just as he raises his arm. Works pretty much flawlessly, though it requires a rather strict timing).

Didn't post the others since, for the Rhino I use your strategy, and the first 2 are pretty trivial as well.

Always glad to see others giving DECO some love.

True, much like Technos, in my case -- a company I've known and respected for a long time, but never actually gave (most of) their games a decent try.

-----

Also, for the love of god BIL, please make a GIF of the fantastic after-boss-beating pose. The people deserve to know.

[BIL]

Lots of good info, as always - I'm gonna avert my eyes for now, will enjoy comparing notes on Saturday. My brain is frying from lack of sleep but I will not set foot in here again until I've made a worthy Crude Buster victory GIF

Incidentally, I recently read that Technos was started by ex-DECO staff. I found that fitting, from a Western action gamer's perspective... as far as I know, neither company ever had the prestige of a Capcom or Konami, or a Namco or Taito - but they were a dogged presence in the 85/95 decade, with a considerable haul of iconic arcade games and famous (if inconsistent) home ports between them. They also had a decided irreverence - DECO's wacky odes to 80s Americana, Technos' fixation on cartoonish yet barfingly painful street violence - that I absolutely treasure. It can make even their lesser stuff amusing (FC Robocop is poor, and hilarious), but during their occasional flashes of brilliance like FC Double Dragon II and MD Chelnov, the sense of unbothered mastery is sublime. PCE Bloody Wolf may not quite outdo MD Senjou no Okami II on a technical level, but holy fuck does it win at capturing the remorseless, commie-exterminating, hamburger-loving bravado of Chuck Norris at his Cannon Films zenith.

Here's to underdogs. A sentiment that underpins this whole community, I guess.

[Sumez]

[BIL]

^ ah, KARUNOBU on one of his frequent cameos. Are you a Fighter's History appreciator by any chance? :3 Odd how he never got a sequel (afaik)... he's my favourite one-game wonder action hero outside of... well, quite a few actually! I was just gonna say Getsu Fuuma, but there's a million others! And tbh I like the anthology approach of a new face for each game (ala Natsume's FC Dragon Fighter/Kage/Solbrain trilogy). Yeah I know Fuuma was in those dodgy Wai Wai World games but I mean the big time, honey!

Ahem, anyway. Karnov is definitely the most rotund! And his theme tune is quite sexy too.

And horeh sheeit... Crude Buster victory pose was a bit trickier to capture than I'd anticipated. GENS' BG disable left me with a black screen that was hard to nab sprites from, so I went to st4 boss's nice semi-blank wall (a rarity in this game's rather detailed backgrounds) and pieced it together from there. I wonder if there's some super 1337 sprite grabbing tools out there. Worth it though. One of action gaming's all-time great "sup motherfucker?" victory dances*. ¦3



Here's the raw PNG files if of any interest. I can imagine lots of possibilities for these guys (or just fine-tuning in case I screwed something up!), but I'm kinda bushed so will leave it for now. The files are sequenced so you can plug 'em straight into a basic GIF maker, eg Instagiffer.

See also MVS ver Dig that shading! Colourful yet coarse, rather like the rest of the game.

Spoiler

Under close scrutiny, what cracks me up most is the almost monastic concentration during the flexes, followed immediately by that absolute whopper of a shit-eating grin.

This also proved an informative jaunt! Family's over for holidays so I enlisted my faithful guinea pig/little brother as 2P, cause I wanted synchonised CRUDE DUDE posing - and thus we discovered the game does in fact have a super attack! Uh, of sorts. Chucking your buddy does brutal damage to enemies - two shots will defeat st4 boss's human form. Needless to say it's not a free lunch, with your buddy taking damage, but it seems a very fair trade. 2P also opens up some other interesting co-op mechanics... you can rescue your partner from enemy grabs, like the yellow's gorilla press and st4 boss's beast mauling. Wouldn't be surprised if there's more to do, but these alone round things out nicely. Also, the st4 "evil Christmas" theme was quite the pleasant coincidence.

Absolutely love this game now. Have to say, I think club-type weapons should've decked multiple foes per swing - it's kinda exciting hacking down an incoming horde one by one, and it's hardly a big balance issue, but it'd give a little oomph to the otherwise marginalised strikes. Of course it's a game about grabs... also, as you said Skye, they missed a trick with grenades flying straight - feels a bit wimpy, though plugging enemies from across the screen is good compensation.

Way, way clear of kusoge territory, this one. I do wonder how deliberate the crucially important, uniquely multi-hitting jumpkick was... seems either a minor bit of genius (a perfectly restrained escape artist tool, ala Splatterhouse 3 JP's roundhouse), or a really lucky break. As always in these cases, I ain't looking a gift horse in the mouth. ¦3

* this is another!

[Skykid]

I used to play Two Crudes in the 'Cade way back but like Sumez I also dismissed it as semi kusoge UNTIL I bought an unofficial super play DVD in Tokyo and watched an unknown guy literally bend the game in half. Now isn't that something you'd like to see? Well you can't, cos it's in England and I'm not, otherwise I'd upload it to the tube for you. Next time guyz.

Can we talk a little bit about the finessed beauty that is ROLLING THUNDER, arcade original? Has anyone 2-looped it yet? I've been heading to the arcade this past week to practice and I managed 1-5 yesterday with the first loop so close I cried out in anguish when the cheeky Masker came out the door and socked me one. The last stage is pretty hairy. If anyone's interested I usually post my arcade exploits here along with other stuff.

I have had a look at loop 2 through a couple of continue credits and it seems like that's where the real action begins. I haven't watched any runs on YouTube - I like to attempt to get through a game organically, but if there's something I should know about (like forthcoming endless pain) I'm all ears.

[BIL]

Always respected Rolling Thunder, but ala Makaimura it's an iconic sidescroller I've not spent enough time on to really comment. Got it on Namco Museum Encore (PS1) for later on. Over the last few years I snapped up the MD port of RT2, the brazen but excellent clone Ningen Heiki: Dead Fox (FC), and the surprisingly vicious FC port of the original that preceded it. Guess I shouldn't say "surprisingly," because Dead Fox was by the same guys (a nascent Arc System Works, I heard?), and is on par with IREM's Metal Storm for ruthless FC-bred arcade-calibre killers.

[BrianC]

Is the "new version" revision recommended for RT arcade?

[__SKYe]

And horeh sheeit... Crude Buster victory pose was a bit trickier to capture than I'd anticipated. GENS' BG disable left me with a black screen that was hard to nab sprites from, so I went to st4 boss's nice semi-blank wall (a rarity in this game's rather detailed backgrounds) and pieced it together from there. I wonder if there's some super 1337 sprite grabbing tools out there. Worth it though. One of action gaming's all-time great "sup motherfucker?" victory dances*. ¦3

BIL, you're doing the lord's work.
It's a fantastic pose altogether, but the part that really cracks me up, is the cheek puff followed by the grin. So damn funny.

And the fact that the grin is not a single line of white pixels, but instead they alternate B&W, just makes it even better, like they have some sort of metal plating on the teeth, which just serves to augment the punk/post-apocalyptic vibe.

This also proved an informative jaunt! Family's over for holidays so I enlisted my faithful guinea pig/little brother as 2P, cause I wanted synchonised CRUDE DUDE posing - and thus we discovered the game does in fact have a super attack! Uh, of sorts. Chucking your buddy does brutal damage to enemies - two shots will defeat st4 boss's human form. Needless to say it's not a free lunch, with your buddy taking damage, but it seems a very fair trade. 2P also opens up some other interesting co-op mechanics... you can rescue your partner from enemy grabs, like the yellow's gorilla press and st4 boss's beast mauling. Wouldn't be surprised if there's more to do, but these alone round things out nicely.

Cool stuff, something you never get to see if you just play single player.
Do you still just have a single Coke machine in the bonus rounds, or is there another? Though that 2P special drains one player's health, you can still offset it by drinking the cans on the bonus round right after.

Also, the st4 "evil Christmas" theme was quite the pleasant coincidence.

It also feels tremendously nice to beat him with the stick that's close by.

Absolutely love this game now. Have to say, I think club-type weapons should've decked multiple foes per swing - it's kinda exciting hacking down an incoming horde one by one, and it's hardly a big balance issue, but it'd give a little oomph to the otherwise marginalised strikes. Of course it's a game about grabs...

It's one of the things that will throw people off at first, since on most games like these, hitting enemies with a weapon will hit the whole group.
You can throw the sticks after a few whippings (if you get tired of hitting them one by one), which is always nice, though.

also, as you said Skye, they missed a trick with grenades flying straight - feels a bit wimpy, though plugging enemies from across the screen is good compensation.

Yeah, not much of a problem, but since those enemies do throw them at an arc, I think it would be a bit more natural to be able to do the same.
Yet another thing that takes a bit of getting used to -- figuring out how each weapon behaves when thrown, since not all of them behave in a predictable manner.

Way, way clear of kusoge territory, this one. I do wonder how deliberate the crucially important, uniquely multi-hitting jumpkick was... seems either a minor bit of genius (a perfectly restrained escape artist tool, ala Splatterhouse 3 JP's roundhouse), or a really lucky break. As always in these cases, I ain't looking a gift horse in the mouth. ¦3

Good question. Without it, though, there would be no easy way to get some breathing room (something I find particularly important against dogs' and the midgets' pincer attacks, or even when the enemies clump together after you throw one into the group, and there're no weapons nearby to use). They did give it some thought, at the very least, since the way the tougher enemies will not be knocked back with jump kicks, seems to be a pretty effective counter to a player abusing them. Don't recall if they also don't get knocked back with standard punhes/kicks, but then again, I rarely use them, since this game is really made to use the grab mechanic.

I found that fitting, from a Western action gamer's perspective... as far as I know, neither company ever had the prestige of a Capcom or Konami, or a Namco or Taito - but they were a dogged presence in the 85/95 decade, with a considerable haul of iconic arcade games and famous (if inconsistent) home ports between them.

Yup, though Technos was pretty famous at one point (they did invent the beat-em-up genre as we know it, even if it was Capcom's Final Fight that later refined it), Data East deserves the moniker of underdog a bit more.
From my experience (from when I didn't know much about the arcade-style side of gaming), I consider Data East the kind of company that the average gamer (ie. not very experienced with arcade games, or the arcade's developers) does not know, but as you dip more and more into the arcade gaming culture, and first learn of the company, then you realize they're everywhere -- not having any exceedingly noteworthy title, but many decent to above-average ones.

Here's to underdogs. A sentiment that underpins this whole community, I guess.

Agreed. Though it is always nice to find (and preach about) good games regardless of developer, I find it extra nice when it comes from a lesser known/appreciated one.

Guess I shouldn't say "surprisingly," because Dead Fox was by the same guys (a nascent Arc System Works, I heard?), and is on par with IREM's Metal Storm for ruthless FC-bred arcade-calibre killers.

Yeah, it was their first original title (though published by Capcom).

Can we talk a little bit about the finessed beauty that is ROLLING THUNDER, arcade original? Has anyone 2-looped it yet? I've been heading to the arcade this past week to practice and I managed 1-5 yesterday with the first loop so close I cried out in anguish when the cheeky Masker came out the door and socked me one. The last stage is pretty hairy.

I also don't have much playtime on it (reached 1-3 some time back, I believe), but really love the accuracy-style of gameplay and I find it a very well executed game (played the New Version, by the way). You're doing pretty good though, so good luck on getting that clear.

If anyone's interested I usually post my arcade exploits here along with other stuff.

Is that your account, or is it a joint one with other people? Either way already found something nice there -- the Brandish 2 translation, thanks for the info.
These old-school, JP home-computer games are so damn sexy.

[Skykid]

It's my account, but I'll share anything hardcore gaming noteworthy that comes my way.

Would be interested to know the difference between the RT original and New Version. Don't even know which I'm playing.

[BIL]

Do you still just have a single Coke machine in the bonus rounds, or is there another? Though that 2P special drains one player's health, you can still offset it by drinking the cans on the bonus round right after.

Still just the one, which I imagine caused a few classic "stealin' all the powerups!" fights over the years.

[__SKYe]

Still just the one, which I imagine caused a few classic "stealin' all the powerups!" fights over the years.

Haha, I can already imagine one player kicking the machine, while the other steals the can before P1 has the chance to do so.

Would be interested to know the difference between the RT original and New Version. Don't even know which I'm playing.

Is the "new version" revision recommended for RT arcade?

The differences are outlined here, though the most important one (the gameplay blance) is the one I can't comment one, since I have neither played the NV far enough, nor the OV.

Honestly, I chose the NV simply because it had a new tune.

As for which version you're playing Skykid, you can tell by the title screen. See the difference in that link.

It's my account, but I'll share anything hardcore gaming noteworthy that comes my way.

Don't know if you're already aware, but we've recently discussed a recently updated website that contains a pretty detailed history of Sunsoft. Don't know if it qualifies, but just thought I'd let you know.

[Skykid]

Ok I'm playing the New Version, and I also think my PCB is the NV too based on that info. A lot of very important changes in there, seems like they really polished out the kinks.

Rolling Thunder is about as precision based a run n' gun as you can get. You conserve your ammo, count your shots to take out specific enemy types that arrive in sets, and are constantly against the clock, pushing you to learn a fluid path through the game.

Only major fuck up is that the score doesn't reset at continuing, even dishing out life extends. Considering that time on the clock contributes the most to your score, I have no idea why they would invalidate scoring this way. I haven't checked to see if it throws a digit on the end of the scoreline for continuing yet.

Don't know if you're already aware, but we've recently discussed a recently updated website that contains a pretty detailed history of Sunsoft. Don't know if it qualifies, but just thought I'd let you know.

Wow, that's incredible! I've put that up straight away. Looking forward to going through the whole thing.

[__SKYe]

Rolling Thunder is about as precision based a run n' gun as you can get. You conserve your ammo, count your shots to take out specific enemy types that arrive in sets, and are constantly against the clock, pushing you to learn a fluid path through the game.

Exactly, and that precision is also present in avoiding any kind of damage (one must be very careful about shooting enemies when a bullet is flying our way -- there's a fair amount of delay before you can jump after shooting the gun), since apart from colliding with some of the enemies (which will take half your HP) it'sa 1-Hit KO.
Always thought it weird that they included such a huge lifebar, when you're dead in 2 hits at most, and in a single one most of the time.

Only major fuck up is that the score doesn't reset at continuing, even dishing out life extends. Considering that time on the clock contributes the most to your score, I have no idea why they would invalidate scoring this way. I haven't checked to see if it throws a digit on the end of the scoreline for continuing yet.

It doesn't add any, and is also my major disappointment in this game. Especially disappointing since they went through the trouble of releasing a new version, but didn't fix this as well.

-----

Finally discovered how to beat the final boss in Crude Buster without trading hits (though didn't manage to do yet).

Spoiler

He'll start off by zooming across the screen, which you can avoid by simply ducking, and you can also seize the opportunity to sneak a punch on him (remember, no grabs).
Then his standard AI begins: he'll walk towards you, and do a jump kick. Move back to avoid it, and he'll perform another in quick sucession, and you'll want to walk under this next one. You can't walk under the first one (he'll always hit you), and a somewhat precise spacing is required for him to perform the second jump kick, otherwise he'll just unleash a flurry of punches (which you will be hit by while attempting to go under the jump kick that never happened). It's a bit like the fight with the Rhino, where you want to be close to him for him to jump over you, but not too close or he'll attack you instead. Only it's a bit more hectic, because there's no knockdown against the final boss, so there's never that much time to prepare to the next blow (there's enough, though).
His other move is jumping into the ceiling, moving around, and dumping 5~6 eggs on the floor that will hatch into small creatures that will quickly scuttle in your direction. jumping over them isn't advised, as they are pretty fast, and there are too many of them, and what I do is pretty much what I do to the dogs -- jump kick them 2 at a time (ie. jump kick as the first is approaching you, and move towards the next while still in mid air, kicking him in the mean time).
This might require a bit of timing, but if you're used to kick the dogs this way, you shouldn't have much trouble.
He'll occasionaly grab you as well, if you're close enough, though you can escape by mashing the directional buttons.

He's still a pretty tough fight though, and it should take a while before I can beat him cleanly. At least I now know how to approach him.

Also figured out why I was having so much trouble with the Rhino. I was letting him land after the jump, before pressing the grab button (something I carried from Ninja Gaiden, where I always prefered to slash an enemy after landing where possible, to avoid having the slash not coming out), but I forgot that you can grab enemies out of the air pretty nicely in this game.

The important part is to time the grabs as the enemies' invincibility period ends.

With that said, I still have a terrible time against the 3 flamethrower guys. Do you have a strat for them?

[BIL]

Always thought it weird that they included such a huge lifebar, when you're dead in 2 hits at most, and in a single one most of the time.

The illusion of safety, I'd guess. :3 Or maybe the illusion of generosity.

Also figured out why I was having so much trouble with the Rhino. I was letting him land after the jump, before pressing the grab button (something I carried from Ninja Gaiden, where I always prefered to slash an enemy after landing where possible, to avoid having the slash not coming out), but I forgot that you can grab enemies out of the air pretty nicely in this game.

Ah, glad you noticed this! I forgot to mention last night, I was experimenting with the same approach.

On the subject of air grabs, or just grabbing stuff that's overhead, I got foiled many times before absorbing that [UP] must remain pressed until the target is snatched. Let go of [up] even a frame too soon, and the grab will be cancelled. If jumping towards something I plan on snatching from beneath, I like to hit [forward] to launch the jump, then release the pad and promptly hold [up] so the grab will be ready to execute. This game's controls are at times ruthlessly strict... good job they're also absolutely responsive.

With that said, I still have a terrible time against the 3 flamethrower guys. Do you have a strat for them?

The ones in stage 5? Nothing bulletproof yet - basically, I just try herd them to the left while making my way to the girder (exploiting their typically slow ledge jump), then nail at least two of them with it. Takes a nice chunk of HP, they'll start dying off soon after (assuming the girder doesn't kill any outright). Quite the organic spacing challenge, it seems! Will report back if I notice anything good.

EDIT

Spoiler

Cleaned a few pesky garbage pixels off the gifs. Should be sorted now (source pngs). Quite relaxing, this, moreso than actually playing games tbh. Lazy Saturday. Suddenly feeling more empathetic to those who did this for a living; I can see how those garbage pixels snuck into one of Hiryu's steep slope-walking frames in Strider. Damn things hang around like semi-invisible glitter. Must've been gutted, whoever slipped up. Particularly if it was a programmer-side error while handling someone else's work! Wonder if Kiyoshi has ever commented on it, haha. In another odd tangent, the excellent PS1 port was rebuilt from CPS code by ex-DECO staff. The affected frames are cleaned up there, naturally.

[__SKYe]

The illusion of safety, I'd guess. :3 Or maybe the illusion of generosity.

Haha, that's a big illusion indeed.
To be fair, many of the games that provide such a big lifebar (a proper one, unlike RT) only give a single life in exchange, so all things considered, it is not too bad. It is pretty confusing at first though, when you get hit by a bullet and suddenly your entire HP goes down the drain.

Ah, glad you noticed this! I forgot to mention last night, I was experimenting with the same approach.

Old habits die hard, I guess.
But just being able to grab the boss when he's a bit away from landing, guarantees that you won't be countered, since they won't attack until they land.

On the subject of air grabs, or just grabbing stuff that's overhead, I got foiled many times before absorbing that [UP] must remain pressed until the target is snatched. Let go of [up] even a frame too soon, and the grab will be cancelled. If jumping towards something I plan on snatching from beneath, I like to hit [forward] to launch the jump, then release the pad and promptly hold [up] so the grab will be ready to execute. This game's controls are at times ruthlessly strict... good job they're also absolutely responsive.

Yeah, something I've shied away from doing until very recently because I always ended up going up to the upper plane instead of grabbing things.
But I'd say this is the strictest move in the entire moveset, and as you say the game mechanics are very well executed.

The ones in stage 5? Nothing bulletproof yet - basically, I just try herd them to the left while making my way to the girder (exploiting their typically slow ledge jump), then nail at least two of them with it. Takes a nice chunk of HP, they'll start dying off soon after (assuming the girder doesn't kill any outright). Quite the organic spacing challenge, it seems! Will report back if I notice anything good.

There are 2 groups of three if I'm not mistaken, one in stage 5 and another in the last stage.
Bosses aside, these are the enemies I have the most trouble with, as unlike every other enemy they will beat you outright in a single plane (the only other enemy with such a better range, is the extending arm guy, but there are only two of them in the game, both times alone and easy to beat). I'll also spend more time with these dudes, because as of now, nearly the entirety of one life goes to them each time.
This kind of fight is where their contact invincibility will destroy you, if you happen to get surrounded in close quarters.

Cleaned a few pesky garbage pixels off the gifs. Should be sorted now (source pngs). Quite relaxing, this, moreso than actually playing games tbh. Lazy Saturday. Suddenly feeling more empathetic to those who did this for a living

Thanks for the work, it is a most fantastic pose. Definitely one of the best (and cheekiest) I've seen in a game.

I can see how those garbage pixels snuck into one of Hiryu's steep slope-walking frames in Strider. Damn things hang around like semi-invisible glitter. Must've been gutted, whoever slipped up. Particularly if it was a programmer-side error while handling someone else's work!

Likely the sprite artist that forgot to set those pixels to transparent (or accidentally set them to black), I'd say; could've been the programmer if the entire tile was garbled (by providing a bad sprite index/offset), but it seems to be just those 2~3 black pixels.
But I agree that the responsible was probably chewed out.
Still, I find it pretty surprising that such a thing made it to the final build in a game made by Capcom, no less.

Wonder if Kiyoshi has ever commented on it, haha. In another odd tangent, the excellent PS1 port was rebuilt from CPS code by ex-DECO staff. The affected frames are cleaned up there, naturally.

They must have received a fair amount of crap for this, so no doubt they wanted it fixed on the port.

EDIT:

OK, I've just tried the arcade version of Crude Buster, and I now understand how Sumez and Skykid might have thought it was a kusoge -- it plays quite differently than the MD port, and in my opinion the MD is much better executed -- it only loses in the audio and graphics departmen, though that is to be expected. The voice samples in the arcade version are awesome too, and really complement the macho, punk game world.

[BIL]

About Strider, I totally forgot to say - I remember the devs (I think it was the game's director Isuke himself) mentioning Hiryu required a massively greater amount of frames than their typical player character - definitely jives with that odd mistake.

Just finished my first credit feed of MD Crude Buster, and you definitely predicted my reaction to the last boss. Towards the end I thought the gag had gone on a bit long, but when he

Spoiler

TURNED INTO THE FUCKING DEVIL AND ATE MY LAST TWO CREDITS

I think I knew what DECO were going for. I love the cheesy, dramatic BGM during his "tragic" intro sequence.

Also, Sumez posted a shot from Trio The Punch: Never Forget Me a bit upscreen... this could almost be another Colonel Sanders appearance!

Few things I noticed this time around - apologies if I end up repeating you. I've still not checked your notes, as there's a few problem spots I want to wrestle with a little longer. I could see this being a quickly-planned but wickedly easy-to-botch 1CC, let alone 1LC. As you said, the double st1 boss rematch is particularly mean! Last weekend I still didn't know how to fight st4's beastman on flat ground, and he ate me alive - so I totally blanked these two.

-you get enough time for two sodas (safe) or three (tight) while also destroying the machine for the 1UP. Always knew you could fit in a few but didn't put hard numbers on it until now. With truly TASlike timing, I imagine you could squeeze in four, but it'd be some intense frame-perfect soda chugging!

My little brother made the astute observations that 1) the cans probably weigh a ton on account of all that futuristic tissue-regnerating goodness being pressurised into 'em, hence the laborious pickup process, which 2) also explains why the machine explodes with lethal force if hit too hard. This is now my headcanon. (and now I want to whip up an animation of someone kicking the machine after it ate their change only to have their body reduced to bloody gristle in the ansuing apocalyptic detonation or maybe in the hellish world of post-WWIII NYC, brute manly violence has replaced coins as the currency du jour? You wanna drink? Unleash your bestial violence while risking fatal injury, or get lost!)

-as long as your character's hands touch the machine sprite, you'll grab the soda no matter where the cans have fallen. Sounds trivial, but can be a lifesaver in-stage when scrolling forward will spawn more enemies.

-the st5+6 flame troopers, ah yes... now I remember how nasty these guys are. I got radically variable results depending on my positioning - basically, the more exploiting of the AI's endemic troubles with transitioning to high/low ledges, the better. Actually, this goes for even the relatively easy pair in st4. As you say their range is lethal, so approaching head-on isn't a great idea.

Although they're nowhere as unique in appearance as some of the other enemies and bosses, these guys are some of my aesthetic favourites - there's a grimly utilitarian horror in HAZMAT-suited troops wielding flamethrowers amidst the ruins of civilisation. Contagiontastic!

-regarding bosses, this is really a game of deadly-precise AI manipulation, isn't it. Last boss will eat your goddamn face initially, but just like all the rest there's a distinct fatal flaw to figure out. I managed to work out a no-hit routine on my second time reaching him, after dying literally half a dozen times. Looking forward to deploying it on a 1CC attempt!

The one cold spot (st1+2's are harmless but die fast) is st5's Literal Spider Man. Doesn't do a whole lot, even with his potentially insta-killing grab. He looks rad at least.

Interesting to hear a direct AC/MD comparison - the one thing I could've swore I remembered from my brief time with the former was the jumpkick not behaving the same (no multi-hit, IIRC). That and "WHATTA DAY," of course!

[BrianC]

OK, I've just tried the arcade version of Crude Buster, and I now understand how Sumez and Skykid might have thought it was a kusoge -- it plays quite differently than the MD port, and in my opinion the MD is much better executed -- it only loses in the audio and graphics departmen, though that is to be expected. The voice samples in the arcade version are awesome too, and really complement the macho, punk game world.

One thing I noticed with the AC version is that while it lacks the brief enemy invulnerability time of the MD version, it's also possible for the enemies to hit you multiple times.

[BIL]

^ Ah yes, that was another biggie I recall. This stuff made me conclude that the MD gameplay was more rebuilt than directly translated, and that I should just nab it while I had the chance. Back then I seriously docked ports for inaccuracies, bahaha! It was this foolishness that led me to trade in my beautiful slaughter machine MD Kyuukyu Tiger after getting the PS1 port. WTF. Fortunately, the buyer was a total bro and he let me have it back FO FREE And that, with invaluable assistance from the writings of Perikles, was when I knew that if it honours the host console with a good game, IDGAF how arcade-accurate it is! This goes double and TRIPLE for 16 and 8-bit ports, respectively. Don't hate on inaccurate ports kids! The world would be a far poorer place without FC Contra or PCE Salamander. Obviously sometimes a port just sucks, ofc!

Oh yeah, meant to say - this was the first time in a while playing MD Crude Buster with decent volume. The OST really gains from it, with the emphasis on percussion and rhythm over melodic hooks. Especially during the standout Boss BGM Type B, "Kids in Battle," where Hitoshi Sakimoto's trademark bass guitar has a brutally hard edge redolent of goddamn Lemmy Kilmister. And much like the man himself, it sounds equally as cool ambling up and down the fretboard during bonus stage BGM "Take a Break"

Sakimoto is a killer arranger, as always. Anyone who enjoys that bass sound should also hear he and Masaharu Iwata's original MD Gauntlet soundtrack, particularly the outstanding "Transparent Obstacle." It may not sound like it at first, but once it gets going it's the funkiest stygian dungeon crawl ever!

[__SKYe]

About Strider, I totally forgot to say - I remember the devs (I think it was the game's director Isuke himself) mentioning Hiryu required a massively greater amount of frames than their typical player character - definitely jives with that odd mistake.

Oh yeah, and coupled with the devs tendency to have massive work schedules, it's no wonder.

Just finished my first credit feed of MD Crude Buster, and you definitely predicted my reaction to the last boss. Towards the end I thought the gag had gone on a bit long, but when he

Spoiler

TURNED INTO THE FUCKING DEVIL AND ATE MY LAST TWO CREDITS

I think I knew what DECO were going for. I love the cheesy, dramatic BGM during his "tragic" intro sequence.

It's pretty damn funny, especially when he appears and points his finger at you accusingly. He's genuinely pissed at you for beating up his creations.
Also, not sure if you did this, but you will still take damage from touching him (ie. if you press forward when he's hitting you), which is pretty hilarious.
It does take quite a bit of punishment before he goes down, but the twist at the end more than makes up for it.

Few things I noticed this time around - apologies if I end up repeating you. I've still not checked your notes, as there's a few problem spots I want to wrestle with a little longer. I could see this being a quickly-planned but wickedly easy-to-botch 1CC, let alone 1LC.

No problem, I also think it is much more fun to play, and come up with tactics by myself, and later compare with how others do it.

As you said, the double st1 boss rematch is particularly mean! Last weekend I still didn't know how to fight st4's beastman on flat ground, and he ate me alive - so I totally blanked these two.

Against the stage 1 bosses:

Spoiler

I like to immediately go forwards and pick up the rightmost one as he spawns, and throw him into the other. Then, for as long as possible, I grab the one closest to me in mid air (they will always jump after a knock down) and repeat.

I've yet to beat them cleanly, but I just did manage to beat them without losing a life for the first time, and incidentally, managed to reach the Rhino on 1 credit for the first time ever.
Funny thing, and perhaps the most important thing to remember here, is to resist the temptation of pressing the grab button after they manage to touch you, as you will only take damage instead, and it's much better to move away and regroup.

As for the Beast, I still do what I posted previously in spoilers, though it's still a bit sketchy -- it requires a pretty strict timing.
But once again, I find that, should I fail to grab him, and if he hits me instead, the best thing to do is to move forward, to avoid his pounce attack, and just regroup on the other side and try again.

-you get enough time for two sodas (safe) or three (tight) while also destroying the machine for the 1UP. Always knew you could fit in a few but didn't put hard numbers on it until now. With truly TASlike timing, I imagine you could squeeze in four, but it'd be intense. ( )

You mean the mid-stage machines? I always get 4 sodas before they destroy. It just seems related to how much damage you inflict on them, rather then how much time passes. Or do you mean the bonus round machines?
Also 1UP? Never knew about that.

-as long as your character's hands touch the machine sprite, you'll grab the soda; sounds trivial but can be a lifesaver in-stage when scrolling forward will spawn more enemies.

I've taken so much damage from this, that I've grown used to beat every enemy in the vicinity before attempting to drink.
The developers really take the piss on you here, as on some of the coke-machines, there will be a pretty generous delay before an enemy spawns, to lure the unsespecting player into grabbing the can and then being totally defenseless while drinking.

-the st5+6 flame troopers, ah yes... now I remember how nasty these guys are. I got radically variable results depending on my positioning - basically, the more exploiting of the AI's endemic troubles with transitioning to high/low ledges, the better. Actually, this goes for even the relatively easy pair in st4. As you say their range is lethal, so approaching head-on isn't a great idea.

On the stage 5 group I've learned to abuse the small ledge on the top plane, and jump kicking when necessary, because they will treat that small height as they do the upper plane, and will jump instead of attacking you.
The stage 6 group is a pain in the ass, and requires pretty damn good positioning to, at least, tone down the damage you take.

Although they're nowhere as unique in appearance as some of the other enemies and bosses, these guys are some of my aesthetic favourites - there's a grimly utilitarian horror in HAZMAT-suited troops wielding flamethrowers amidst the ruins of civilisation. Contagiontastic!

Agreed, and they also have the most unique and varied moveset of all the non-boss enemies (including the white haired, Beast's 1st form). Their mixup of pistol-whipping when you're close, a small burst of flames, and a sustained flamethrower that will put the ground ablze for a while, is pretty neat. They even fire their flamethrower at an upward angle, should you try to jump on them.

-regarding bosses, this is really a game of deadly-precise AI manipulation, isn't it. Last boss will eat your goddamn face initially, but just like all the rest there's a distinct fatal flaw to figure out. I managed to work out a no-hit routine on my second time reaching him, after dying literally half a dozen times. Looking forward to deploying it on a 1CC attempt!

Yup, pretty damn demanding, but it is a great game though.
I'm also working on another tactic for the LB (my current one works, but it's still a work-in-progress, execution-wise. I always like to look for other, simpler alternatives) and will post it later if it pans out.
I can mostly avoid his ceiling-egg-droping routine now, so it's getting better.

The one cold spot (st1+2's are harmless but die fast) is st5's Literal Spider Man. Doesn't do a whole lot, even with his potentially insta-killing grab. He looks rad at least.

Well, get ready for big news.
Was fighting him for the n-th time, and as I was waiting for him to drop down from his web, I started to think how nice it would be if you could grab the bastard out of his deadly drop. Tried a few times, still moving away a bit to avoid his grab, and guess what You can!!!
The best part is that, after you grab and throw him, he'll start attacking from his ground routine, bypassing the slow web-riding part.

Was really happy, and consider it one of the highlights of the game -- how even the most vicious of foes can be grabbed out of their most deadly attacks, if you have the balls to do so.

Interesting to hear a direct AC/MD comparison - the one thing I could've swore I remembered from my brief time with the former was the jumpkick not behaving the same (no multi-hit, IIRC). That and "WHATTA DAY," of course!

Spent a very brief time with it, but some things are immediately clear:

- Jump kick is non-controllable (ala Castlevania/Makaimura); This means no multi-hit, like you said. The jump itself will also make your character accelerate forward a bit, making it a bit awkward.
- Movement is slower, and most importantly, grabbing enemies is quite a bit slower as well, losing the more fluid "quick-grab-toss" aspect of the MD port.
- You can't throw the small stick (the one that can be used for beatings); both attack and grab buttons will swing it instead.
- The barrels will not go down the the ground plane, if thrown from the upper plane -- they will just roll along the ground.

That's what I can think of right now, but if you try it for a bit after being used to the MD port, then you'll immediately notice it's not nearly as good.

One thing I noticed with the AC version is that while it lacks the brief enemy invulnerability time of the MD version, it's also possible for the enemies to hit you multiple times.

Ah that's right, forgot that, good call.
Again, one of those cases where the port is better than the original.

[BIL]

As for the Beast, I still do what I posted previously in spoilers, though it's still a bit sketchy -- it requires a pretty strict timing.
But once again, I find that, should I fail to grab him, and if he hits me instead, the best thing to do is to move forward, to avoid his pounce attack, and just regroup on the other side and try again.

After an absolutely disastrous first few attempts at the st5 rematch, fighting him without the obvious advantage of the ledge, I've got him nice and locked down.

Spoiler

Just walk away from him - he'll chase and pounce, completely whiffing as long as you don't stop moving. Turn and grab him as he whiffs, then slam him far offscreen - when he returns, hit hitstun having expired, just repeat the process.

You can probably handle his human form and later clones, but if it's of interest, I take a similar bait/whiff/grab approach there. Get near enough to bait his slide, do an immediate 180 and walk away, then turn and crouch-grab him. You can actually grab him directly out of the slide, which is useful if you need him slammed pronto, but it's additional risk for little gain (besides style points, of course )

I particularly enjoyed cracking the beast method - I went from "whatever, badass sprite though" at the ledge-assisted st4 match, to "JESUS CHRIST HE'S EATING MY FACE " at st5. Returned to st4 humbled, and took many further maulings until I could beat him on flat ground. As seems to be this game's trademark, the method is fairly simple but won after so much bloodshed, it can't help but satisfy.

You mean the mid-stage machines? I always get 4 sodas before they destroy. It just seems related to how much damage you inflict on them, rather then how much time passes. Or do you mean the bonus round machines?

The bonus round ones - the midstage ones will indeed give four every time, then blow up if further abused. Actually I totally forgot they can time-destruct, too - usually I'm frantically trying to stop enemies (particularly those bastard grenadiers) from finishing them off.

Also 1UP? Never knew about that.

Yeah, no matter your score, taking out the bonus stage machine gives its destroyer a 1UP. Now I almost wonder what happens if you destroy it by chucking your buddy into it...

I've taken so much damage from this, that I've grown used to beat every enemy in the vicinity before attempting to drink.
The developers really take the piss on you here, as on some of the coke-machines, there will be a pretty generous delay before an enemy spawns, to lure the unsespecting player into grabbing the can and then being totally defenseless while drinking.

That delay is an absolute bastard - I'm pretty sure if the red "Go" arrow appears, the coast is clear, but I'm not about to bet on that!

I can mostly avoid his ceiling-egg-droping routine now, so it's getting better.

I was pleasantly surprised at how quickly I figured that out; basically I

Spoiler

just get near the drop point, and spam the legsweep (hold down+forward while attacking). At first I was trying to jump them, which quickly seemed like suicide, and then I was carefully sweeping them individually, which is tricky - spamming seems totally safe though. Was also a bit of a "Chekov's Gun" moment for that legsweep, haha!

Well, get ready for big news.
Was fighting him for the n-th time, and as I was waiting for him to drop down from his web, I started to think how nice it would be if you could grab the bastard out of his deadly drop. Tried a few times, still moving away a bit to avoid his grab, and guess what You can!!!
The best part is that, after you grab and throw him, he'll start attacking from his ground routine, bypassing the slow web-riding part.

Was really happy, and consider it one of the highlights of the game -- how even the most vicious of foes can be grabbed out of their most deadly attacks, if you have the balls to do so.

Ah, very cool - I had a suspicion you could just grab the bugger! Who Dares Wins, indeed.

Another random thing I noticed this time around - the low jump (hold [DOWN] before hitting the jump button) is really useful at warding off dogs n' dwarves. The regular-height jumpkick is powerless to connect at its peak height, leaving you stranded; the low one is an unstoppable guillotine/bulldozer, and even if you're surrounded, just waggle the pad for a two-way attack. Previously, I had to hop all over the screen during the larger DnD mobs of st3+5; was glad to figure this out.

[__SKYe]

Yeah, no matter your score, taking out the bonus stage machine gives its destroyer a 1UP. Now I almost wonder what happens if you destroy it by chucking your buddy into it...

Yeah just tried it, and it indeed gives you an 1UP. Man I went all this time not knowing it.
The funniest thing is, the very first time I plaed this game and reached the bonus round, I thought it was a Final Fight-style "destroy it" round, and destroyed the machine, yet never noticed the 1UP. I thought the coke cans where just for aesthetics.

I was pleasantly surprised at how quickly I figured that out; basically I

Spoiler

just get near the drop point, and spam the legsweep (hold down+forward while attacking). At first I was trying to jump them, which quickly seemed like suicide, and then I was carefully sweeping them individually, which is tricky - spamming seems totally safe though. Was also a bit of a "Chekov's Gun" moment for that legsweep, haha!

Leg sweep? yet another thing I didn't know off.
I think I tried the standard crouching attack, but he just punches as normal and didn't hit the things. I think I'll start doing it your way -- I can mostly avoid damage the way I do it, but there's always the occasional hit.

Ah, very cool - I had a suspicion you could just grab the bugger! Who Dares Wins, indeed.

Tried aone more time, and you do need to move away from his swoop before grabbing up. Actualy you might not, given how strict the grabs' timing can be, but all the times I've tried to grab him as he descended ended up with my character getting taken.
WHich leads me to my next point -- you can let him pick you up, wiggle to free yourself and jump kick him in the span of time you're falling, and he'll fall from his web as well.
Now, I landed in the middle platform a few of the times, so you might need to actually land there before jump kicking him (can't rellay confirm if just kicking while falling will hit him), but perhaps if you can bait him into one of the corners, ascend into the platform and then jump kick, it might might also work -- better than boringly wait for him to swoop down all seven times.

Another random thing I noticed this time around - the low jump (hold [DOWN] before hitting the jump button) is really useful at warding off dogs n' dwarves. The regular-height jumpkick will quickly lose them, leaving you stranded; the low one is an unstoppable guillotine, and even if you're surrounded, just waggle the pad for a two-way attack. Previously I had to hop all over the screen during the larger assaults of st3+4, was glad to figure this out.

Good catch! I noticed the small jump too, but actually thought it was of no use, and prefered if the roll could be performed with just Down+Jump instead of having to press forward as well.
Will also have to use it against the damn dogs and midgets.

Went back and looked at your st4/beastman strategy - mine is pretty much the same for both his human and beast forms.

Spoiler

As the beast, walk away from him - he'll chase and pounce, completely whiffing as long as you don't stop moving. Turn and grab him as he whiffs, then slam him far offscreen - when he returns, just repeat the process.

The st5 rematch went from an absolute horror to a relative breeze once I nailed this method, though as usual with this game, you'll get punished hard if you screw it up.

Yet another great strat. Will probably also use that instead of mine.
Though I can beat him using mine in one life most of the time, I tend to take, at least, half HP of damage, which isn't very good. It feels pretty good to catch him during his run, and again, one of those "Who Dares Wins" moments, as you put it.

For his human form, and the later clones, I do similar... get near enough to bait his slide, do an immediate 180, then turn and crouch-grab him. You can actually grab him directly out of the slide, which is useful if you need him slammed pronto, but it's additional risk for little grain (besides style points, of course).

Yeah, those are no problem, and they all fall for the same thing.
The long-arm guys are the exception, of course, though you can defeat them both pretty easily. The first (on stage 3) by standing on the leftmost little platform. He won't attack you, and will simply walk into you, leaving you free to gab him as you please. Worth noting that, if you throw him into the diagonal ledge, he won't attack either, and will also continue to walk until he reached the ground.
As for the second, simply throw both barrels at him, and go to the upper plane, drop behind him and grab. Do this twice (assuming you hit him with both barrels) and he's dead. He'll occasionally hit you with a close-quarters attack, but at worst, you'll soak both hits and lose 1/4 HP or less.

Found out something else as well: I've had some trouble with the one mid-boss in stage 2, that in his 2nd form will start shooting a gun. By throwing him out of the screen, his shots will never spawn, and you just have to wait for him to jump into the screen again, grab him, throw, and repeat.
He was never much of a threat, but I always took a few hits from his gun, so it's nice to finally be able to no-damage him.

-----

Oh, what I came here to say -- the other tactic that I was trying on the TLB? Works like a charm, and since I first hit him with it, I won losing only 1/3 HP (I messed the inputs a bit).

Totally overshadows the previous one, and it's quite somewhat easy to do:

Spoiler

Simply punch him, and immediately walk towards him, going through him and reaching his back. You will not take damage during his initial i-frames, and he'll do a flurry of punches that will miss you. As soon as you reach his back punch him again and repeat.
The danger is in taking too long to move through him -- if you do, you'll take contact damage --, and in punching him with the proper timing, as his invincibility is ending -- something you've probably been doing throughout the whole game. anyway.

I'm quite happy with it, and feels pretty damn good as well, being able to dominate an enemy that previously gave me so much trouble.

[__SKYe]

Apologies for the double post -- got the 1CC.



Not without the slew of lives from the bonus rounds, though I'm happy nonetheless; the final boss' fight went pretty damn well (didn't lose any lives there).

As for the Spider, to grab him out of its swoop: as he is descending, start moving to the left (easier because your grabbing hand will be to the right of the screen), and push grab when he's at the lowest point (where he'd grab you, if you were beneath him), lining your grabbing hand with his center/head, and you'll grab him instead.
It's pretty easy to do and much cooler and faster than the standard route of waiting for him to come down on his own.

Enough of Crude Buster™ for today.

[BIL]

Excellent job surviving the last boss. Looking forward to trying my hand at it tomorrow - late here, and this is the sort of game I refuse to play at sensible volume.