The BIG thread of Shmup grievances.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I don't remember much about THE, so I can't comment about stage 4 boss much. Don't remember if there was randomness there or not. It being bomb immune definitely didn't help things though.



Trying to finish the play orders on Gundemonium Recollection, and even with the trick to only have to play Stage 5 for completion credit, Rosette is a terrible play order. I'm now up to 47/64 Earls done.

I also have no idea how to play as Peco in Hitogata Happa, so it's easily the hardest Solo Voyage for me and the only character I haven't finished it, and I'm trying to do it on Euridice just like the others(though I also did Fool on Nobilmente cause it was easy).

[DrTrouserPlank]

I think it's pretty well known that Triggerheart Exelica on XBLA is almost a completely different game from Triggerheart Exelica on Naomi/Dreamcast. Which version was the superplay you watched played on, and which version are you playing? What works in one version probably won't work in the other.

I know they're different and I'm looking at a superplay from the 360 version.

It's still possible in the XBLA version, but the sweet spot for the throw is different for whatever reason, which makes execution (slightly) more difficult.
Are you anchoring and shooting Faintear in that phase until the bits are in position to grab?
Are you throwing the bits at an angle and speed that maximizes time in contact and therefore damage on Faintear?

I'm grabbing the one that spawns at 6 o'clock and moving to the left into the next quadrant before the lasers cut off it off. That way I've got another enemy to grab after I chuck this one.

As for angle and speed I can't tell you. It's a miracle if I even manage to throw it without being hit.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Fuck Absolute Defender and fuck G-Darius for even having that bullshit boss. I just lost my 2nd run to two laser attacks that destroyed my captures before I could even beam duel the asshole. I only wanted to get the omicron clear out of the way before I put the game down but seriously screw it, it's not worth the trouble.

[Marc]

Futari BL, fan-spraying woodlice and boss. Fuck off.

[saucykobold]

Fuck Absolute Defender and fuck G-Darius for even having that bullshit boss. I just lost my 2nd run to two laser attacks that destroyed my captures before I could even beam duel the asshole.

I've always found Absolute Defender to be a bit easier in L than in K. Also, worth noting that it's occasionally a good idea to protect your helper(s) by readying your beam well before a boss fires its own.

[Obscura]

To my power-ups in Espgaluda, would you please stop bouncing in such a way that I have to bomb to get you back safely? I'm really, really tired "death, try to get power-ups back to deal with this boss, die again when my invulnerability runs out while I'm at the top of the screen trying to grab these things that are actively running away from me".

Also, I agree with the Futari post above, except it's 1.5 in my case. Fuck you, woodlice.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Gundemonium Recollection on Demonic has to have some of the worst BS I've seen yet in a Doujin shmup. I quit, screw that goal I mentioned to 1cc it because that was before I knew all the garbage that can happen due to RNG in that game.

I still may hate UFO, but if I was comparing something to whatever unfair Doujin STG, it's not going to be UFO that does have a few unfair things but to this piece of crap game now. At least Unlimited and Revised are still mostly decent, though Unlimited does have some BS of its own.

[Special World]

The fan-spraying woodlice in Futari are awesome.

[Captain]

Absolute defender was always absolutely easy for me.

But then again, I tend to memorize the boss attack patters completely (I'm a Darius pro, after all)

[DrTrouserPlank]

Under defeat stage 1-4 ...... bullshit.
stage 1-5 ..... mega bullshit.

So here's a question for you. What do you do when you've played the level so much that you see it when you close your eyes but still can't clear it?

Practice isn't going to make any difference now because I know where everything is, and it's not going to stop me hitting bullets that I can see by mistake. Watched the replays, they do exactly the same as me, same path, same everything.

[mesh control]

[DrTrouserPlank]

Cheer up chuck.

[Ed Oscuro]

What do you do when you've played the level so much that you see it when you close your eyes but still can't clear it?

You stop playing, forever.

[Xeno]

DEATHSMILES

So today I got my first 1cc in this game, when I finished it I was so pissed because this fucker did not save my replay. I figured that when you play the score attack mode it would automatically save the replay especially as it says "storage device for saving replay data will be selected. Proceed?"...but no.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I do find playing these game can be quite depressing (today at least). The impossibility of them combined with making no progress is just demoralising. When they don't make you feel like that the difficulty is simply infuriating.

I guess the problem is just the absence of progressing. You hit a wall and that's it.. that's pretty much as far as you ever get. Practice stops working and produces no measurable results. It spoils the enjoyment of playing because every run is doomed to failure before you even start.

Grinding levels in practice is no fun (certainly once you stop getting results), runs are largely a waste of time because your score is limited by how far you can progress. The game is fun to play until it all starts to fall apart and you're dead again at pretty much the same spot every time.

I don't see what I'm not doing that apparently everyone else is... I really don't get it.

[dunpeal2064]

honestly, I go through periods where I won't touch a shooter for weeks. Sometimes, like you said, its just too much, and when it doesn't feel fun, I just stop. Sometimes I'll throw on a beat em up, credit feed, and just spank ass all day and feel like I'm a bawse.

It cuold also be the game. I could not play Futari 1.5 Original more than once a day, as I always make it pretty far, but never make it to Larsa with enough resources to be able to take her down. At the same time, I don't like the mode enough to spend time grinding spots down. I might come back to it after learning something else, but honestly, so much of my actual learning of shmups was done on Futari that I just don't want to play 1.5 Original anymore.

I would say take some time to see what high-end scoring looks like in the games you have, and see what one is most appealing. Which of those do you want to be able to do? If all of it looks tedious, maybe today isn't a day for shmups.

If they never look appealing, maybe you aren't a scorer?

If you do want to just kick back, not have to worry about memorization, and get a few 1ccs under your belt, check out Compile's library.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I've spent ages on various games. Futari, THE, under defeat and no clears, frankly not even close to clearing them.

It's just depressing that it always ends up the same way. You just get to a point where you can't progress or do whatever it is consistently enough. At this point you've pretty much made all the progress you're ever going to make and playing the game any more is just an exercise in frustration.

I don't think I'll ever manage to clear any of these. It's not through lack of time or effort but it seems that once you get stuck, nothing you can do makes any difference. It makes all of that time spent getting to that point seem like a complete waste because of the inevitability that you'll always reach this sticking point, and no amount of additional practice can allow you to progress further.

It's pretty rubbish really.

[Marc]

But why are you getting so worked up, seriously? I play these games because I like them; of course a (modern) 1'CC would be great - and funnily enough, Futari BL seems doable - but I play to let of steam and take my mind off the daily grind. When the game turns into part of that, it's time to stop man. I may never get a Cave 1'CC, but where's the big deal? If I don't, the world will carry on turning. If I do, I'm no more likely to get laid afterwards than I am now. Honestly, if you're so bummed out, quit for a while. I have been, and have done. I used to give myself the same rough ride that you're doing, but what's the use? Actually, the only time I finished games on a regular basis was when I was in my early teens, saving up £10 a week for a SNES game, them that was it for another 5-6 weeks, but shit changes.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

As long as you continue playing and having fun you should get better. What you should be asking yourself is am I having fun playing STGs without the 1CC. If not you need to make some changes both in how you play and mindset.

Its clear that the 1CC is out of your reach atleast atm. Try beating the game with a set number of continues for your skill level, as long as you work hard to achieve your goal it doesnt matter what the goal actually is. If you arnt having fun, you will never get a 1CC period

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It makes all of that time spent getting to that point seem like a complete waste because of the inevitability that you'll always reach this sticking point, and no amount of additional practice can allow you to progress further.

The time you spend practising and your skill level are not a linear relation. It's not like for every X hours you're going to get this much noticeably better; sometimes you might get stuck on a segment of the time for a while before you finally are able to progress. There's so many factors like how effective you are at practising, how frustrated you get at a section, if you find a specfic strategy that trivializes a segment, etc. Just because it seems like wasted time doesn't make that true and even if it takes you longer to get better at a game there's no shame in that. Just aim for realistic goals and improve from there. I agree with Trev, can't 1cc it yet? Work on beating it on 2 continues as you improve or something.

[DrTrouserPlank]

My problem is not really that I can't have fun without the 1cc, but I can only have limited fun without making progress. If I am practicing and I'm not making any meaningful or consistent progress (consistency being the key) and I can't improve my score on any of the runs then it severely limits the fun I can have because every play session is just a failure in everything I attempt.

I don't see how I can get any better. The reason I am not improving is because I am as good as it is possible to be. The variations in success of any run is large. People talk about having a "plan" for levels but I do. For 1-4 of Under defeat I have a point by point fucking plan of what I shoot and with what, but it never produces the same results because you are never in exactly the same spot every run, and you still hit things by accident, and once you've died it's all randomised again.

I think people's success with any of these games that is posted on this board must represent the most infinitesimally small section of the shmups community as a whole, because there is just no way in hell that any significant number of people are getting through these games in 1 credit or setting reasonable scores. Given the simply ridiculous amount of time I've spent on some of these games I don't even believe I fall into the more "normal" representation of shmup players, because there must be a hell of a lot of people out there who'd have given up way before me.

[Erppo]

I am as good as it is possible to be.

Feeling pretty humble today are we?

[BIL]

I don't see how I can get any better. The reason I am not improving is because I am as good as it is possible to be.

I was able to get a 1-5 score of a bit over 2.2 million in UD, after a month or so's casual play on a borrowed DC. Came within a whisker of a 1-ALL, too. I've no doubt I would've gotten it if I'd been a bit looser with bombs and less fixated on scoring, but I wasn't going for a 1CC, I wanted table places. I look forward to playing again and bettering my score, once I have my own DC.

"Good as it is possible to be?" These games, like any skilled activity, require persistent self-evaluation. Identifying and addressing of one's weaknesses. That's what draws players to them and gives them depth. Right now, you aren't even as good as a low-level player like I was. The only honourable advice to give you is to either learn some humility and go beyond your facile "I always bump something" appraisals, or quit these games immediately. You'll never get any satisfaction out of them with your current approach, barring the odd miserable fluke.

[the.borg]

Feeling pretty humble today are we?

Is the hate against DrTrouserPlank ever gonna stop ?
I personally empathize with him

[AntiFritz]

I don't see how I can get any better. The reason I am not improving is because I am as good as it is possible to be.

I didn't know you were the best of the best.

[MrChiggins]

I don't see how I can get any better. The reason I am not improving is because I am as good as it is possible to be.

Well obviously he means within his own skill level.
Honestly for a while I thought you were a really devoted troll, DrTrouserPlank EDIT: (and I'm still not sure). But I do empathize with some of what you're saying although I think you're too hard on yourself.
I think the best thing for you would be some private lessons from Icarus.

[BIL]

^I wouldn't say it's obvious at all, given his posting record. And even if that's what he means, the point still stands - his current limit is not good enough.

It's not a big deal. The whole point of games like these is to improve, even if you just want to finish on a credit.

[MrChiggins]

Yeah I've seen some of the things he's said and it gets a bit grey sometimes. I don't know. I normally just avoid it.

[Deca]

You're undermining yourself by being a whiny defeatist bitch instead of convincing yourself that you can and will succeed. That's the difference between you and those of us getting shit done. Do you honestly believe that I never hit walls or ever questioned my own ability to get the clears that I have?

Also for the love of god please fucking look up the definition of impossible and figure out how to use that word appropriately.

I've gotta say, you do kinda make me feel better about my own achievements :p

[Obscura]

The more I ram my head into the brick wall that is Crimzon Clover, the more I start to sympathize with DTP. I don't think that it's impossible at all, but I am starting to think that there's a major factor of natural ability involved, and if you don't have it, then there's not much you can do.

Forty hours with the game, and still the 1CC remains totally out-of-sight.