DVDO EDGE - How it performs

[Xyga]

So I did manage to make my EDGE work... kind of.
I hit it harder (best repair method since the dawn of technology) and it works fine for about 20-30 minutes before going back to the blinking/flashing.
When it does that I've noticed it's got a hard time finding the right input and signal type as well (goes from component 1 to 2 and shows 'video', 's-video' or anything).

Anyway I was able to combo it with the XRGB-2 and while the picture looks very nice (it's a bit superior to the XRGB-2+VP30), the 25ms lag in game mode remains...

Output is on 1080p60, game mode activated, autolock, PrEP disabled, 1.1 rate disabled... if it's really a bug and I can't do anything to fix it then for me there's no point in this combo, since I'm an hardcore anti-lag.

[kel]

8ms in my setup for SNES to XRGB-3 via transcoder to the Edge.

It may be different for other consoles or PAL systems. I only have my NTSC SNES setup at the moment so I can't tell.

[BuckoA51]

1 to 1 framerate should be enabled not disabled, though it shouldn't make a difference in this instance. I get 8ms with my Sega Megadrive (Japanese model) chained through the XRGB3.

[Xyga]

Enabled 1.1 framerate, no difference.

This is with a PAL MD2 w/60Hz switch.

I did a factory reset earlier to see if it made any difference but it didn't.

EDIT: tried with a modded PS1 - same delay.

[BuckoA51]

As I recall my PAL modded MD1 DID have that issue, basically the vertical sync is too far off spec.

Just tested a bunch of other systems

Super Famicom - 8ms
Sega Saturn (Jap) - 25ms
Atari Jaguar - 7ms (PAL)
PC Engine - 25ms
N64 - 25ms
Dreamcast - 6ms

All the systems that had the additional lag were the ones with vertical refresh rates like 59.83 etc.

[Xyga]

Seriously ?
The VP30 always gives 6ms on 480p no matter the source.
Same with its GM1 for low-res sources: always 6ms.

[BuckoA51]

Interesting to know. I might have to look out for a VP30 on eBay then.

[Xyga]

Or a VP50pro if it behaves the same (?) but you didn't like it much if I recall ?

If you ever try a VP30 you'll notice the upscaling of 480p sources is inferior to the EDGE's.
However it's got a 'sharpness' setting which is actually useful;
-1 is the neutral setting and rather soft but clean.
0 sharpens the whole picture and hurts the quality a bit, but not when scanlines are used, and looks quite good.

Still in a combo situation the VP30's upscaling, compared to the EDGE's, seems to lacks a bit of definition and overall 'fullness', but you have to see how it goes with the sharpness setting. It's not bad at all.

I'll fiddle with the EDGE some time then one of those days I'll try a VP50pro. Mwahaha.

PS: don't know if the ABT102 deinterlacing card is important for you, but if you only rarely play 480i content just keep in mind it won't bring you more enjoyment than the EDGE's own performance. So don't spend any significant additional amount of money for a VP30 w/ABT102.

[BuckoA51]

The 50 pro has a whole host of other bugs that made it a bad fit for my needs. I am a big PC gamer both old and new titles and the 50 pro wasn't a good match for the PC at all, well anyway you can see my full write up on my site (http://www.videogameperfection.com/2014 ... -vp50-pro/). If the issues I encountered wouldn't affect you in your setup it might well be the better processor for your needs.

I would be interested to try the 50 pro again see if it did do the whole "25ms for anything with a off-spec vertical refresh" thing (as I never thought to test it at the time) but not interested enough to buy another one. Maybe someone else on here can test it?

I guess we just have to pray for a gsync enabled upscaler. That or solder new clock crystals into all our consoles.

[Xyga]

I'll certainly give it a try when I get to find one at a reasonable price.
But I have my eyes on a new monitor right now so probably in 2015.

Processors are piling up lol.

[cfx]

Ok, I asked some questions earlier in this thread but never bought any upscaler. What I really wanted was a CRT and finally found what I wanted, pro monitor that does both 15kHz and 31kHz.

So now I have a different question: If I want to upscale 480i to 480p for PS2 and only PS2, what's the best option for that? Since it'll be displayed on a CRT I want analog output, and I want better deinterlacing than what the XRGB2 or 2+ did. My point in doing this is I am really bothered by interlacing artifacts and want to get rid of them if I can. For this purpose, mode switching time does not matter as this won't be for any games that do that. I don't want a lot of lag but since it's on a CRT the only lag will be that from the processor.

Since it's only for one console, also hoping for something less expensive than a Framemeister.

[Xyga]

From Fudoh's descriptions I guess you would be very happy with one of the 'Faroudja processors' (Vigatec/Videon, Image Anyplace, etc) if you can find one that is...

[BuckoA51]

They lag a lot more than the DVDO/ABT's though don't they? Really the lack of input lag is why I keep mine around, at least it works out that way on /some/ of the consoles! I do have a Framemeister as well as the second best thing too.

I think my next project will be to try a VGA to Component transcoder on my XRGB3.

[Xyga]

According to Fudoh they should all lag by 2 frames, which is my personal limit since I can feel 2,5 - 3 frames.
On a crt 2 frames should be okay, especially for a PS2 as long as it's for RPGs and stuff.

My first experience with a transcoder (AA) has been awesome thanks to Fudoh's help again.
Can't wait to read his article to learn more about those.

[Fudoh]

Can't wait to read his article to learn more about those

all this pressure

[Xyga]

Lol take all the time you need, I can't imagine how many hours you've already spent on this.

[BuckoA51]

Just finding a VGA to Component transcoder here in Europe seems pretty difficult though!

[Xyga]

Maybe you can try the RCA VHDC300. No idea if it works as well as the AA 9A60, but it's available from eBay UK.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... 0&_sacat=0

EDIT: much more expensive and no idea if it's good but:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Key-Digital-K ... 2ebf3ddd10

EDIT2: importing an AA new is expensive but possible:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... _PrefLoc=2
You should set an alert for a used 9A60.

EDIT3 lol: can't find one but the Key Digital KD-VTCA1 used to be quite common.

[Fudoh]

When venturing into price regions like this, I would just inquire with Crescendo Systems to see if they have anything in stock and how much they ask for shipping.

[BuckoA51]

Startech used to do one which I would have assumed would be good quality no-frills the same as their component to VGA transcoder, but it looks like it is discontinued.

[Xyga]

So today I got a vp50pro, way earlier than I expected (Thanks Fudoh ).

I'm still trying to figure the features I don't know and the slight behavioral differences;

1). With an XRGB (2-3)/combo the straight upscaled 480p picture is about the same quality as the EDGE's (both are slightly superior to the vp30's).

2). Paraphrasing Fudoh here but; using 'Details' and 'Edge' enhancement it is possible to carefully sharpen the upscaled 480p picture and further improve quality. This works nicely but I have yet to master the enhancers with and without 'scanlines' (any recommended values?)
As expected for a 'combo' use the vp50pro offers the best PQ, but not by miles, it's a bit better than the vp30, and a little bit better than the EDGE.

Note: The vp30's rather brutal 'Sharpness' settings on '0' also works well for someone who wants a sharp scanlined image, but in comparison to the EDGE & vp50pro it lacks in 'finesse' and details, and the colors become a bit 'over-gammaed' or something like that. Some brightness/contrast/gamma adjustments can help but not 100%. Still looks great to me. ^^

3). Now straight Scart to RGBs, some systems keep flashing/strobing, I don't know why ;
- Cave cv1000 pcb (Mushihimesama - 320x240@60.00)
- Video System pcb (Turbo Force - 320x224@61.31)
- MD2 PAL 60Hz switched

Q: Does it have anything to do with the 'Cadence Detection' thing ? Or the display profiles thing messing up stuff ?
The EDGE and VP30 would accept all of those (except Turbo Force) without any particular issues.

4). Straight Scart to RGBs again but working fine;
- Toaplan2 pcb (Dogyuun - 320x240@59.637405)
- PS2 (240p & 480i) - have yet to try 480p via component
- PS1 (240p)
Can't comment much about the quality/handling yet as I haven't seen enough to compare, but again the vp50pro seems to be #1 on the podium as long as I don't enable the details and edge enhancers.
Game Modes with improved picture stability ?

6). 50Hz/60Hz switching: I understand this doesn't work automatically and I should create profiles (?)
But how do I do this exactly and can I create enough profiles not to be bothered again ?

5). Checkered test pattern flickers, can't seem to fix it. Is that important anyway ?

[Fudoh]

2) usually slightly negative EE with slightly positive DE works best.
3) The flashing will be gone if you unlock the output refresh rate. Don't know what's causing it. Cadence detection should be off anyway, that's basically the "game mode" setting.
4) The 50Pro in question didn't have the latest FW. Does it already have proper 240p detection ?
5) depite using HDMI ?
6) it does switch automatically once you have profiles for both output timings available and enable the proper setting.
You really just need two output profiles.

[Xyga]

3) The flashing will be gone if you unlock the output refresh rate. Don't know what's causing it.

Nope the flashing is still there even when unlocked, but it's flashing at a somewhat slower frequency.
And when unlocked the lag increases a lot, doesn't it ?
I'd rather always have the output locked since when it is it produces 6ms only, just like the vp30.

Cadence detection should be off anyway, that's basically the "game mode" setting.

Any role to play in regards to lag and PQ then ?
Also what about the PReP again ? Sorry I forgot if it should be on or off when I play 480i content...

4) The 50Pro in question didn't have the latest FW. Does it already have proper 240p detection ?

The FW is 1.04.
My PS1 is running on it right now and I can access the deinterlacing options with the game modes. So I assume it doesn't ?

5) depite using HDMI ?

Yup, could it be a bad cable or something I shouldn't have touched in the W6's settings ?

6) it does switch automatically once you have profiles for both output timings available and enable the proper setting. You really just need two output profiles.

Okay I will study this.

[BuckoA51]

How's the input lag problem with off-spec refresh rates compared to the Edge then?

[Xyga]

How's the input lag problem with off-spec refresh rates compared to the Edge then?

I plan to write a detailed post about that tomorrow, after trying as many systems and situations as I can.

[Xyga]

About updating the vp50pro firmware;

I own a very basic USB to Serial adapter, one that was in my vp30's box when I bought it, but I've never used it since the vp30 already had the latest firmware.
It doesn't come with a cd or whatever.

I wonder if I can safely use it to update the vp50pro ?
It looks nothing like the USBGEAR USBG-232 recommended by DVDO/ABT... the bricked devices stories are a bit scary.

[BuckoA51]

I plan to write a detailed post about that tomorrow, after trying as many systems and situations as I can.

Thanks! I don't suppose you have an Extron interface handy too do you?

[Xyga]

Thanks! I don't suppose you have an Extron interface handy too do you?

Unfortunately no, I don't.

[Fudoh]

About updating the vp50pro firmware;

some USB adapters work, others don't. DVDO recommends a certain specific chipset. If you got a desktop PC it's worth checking if the mainboard has a RS232 header. Many still do, although it's not connected to an outside port. The last 50Pro FW is available from DVDO's support site.

Yes, if a PS1 with 240p still gives you deinterlacing options, then the recognition isn't there yet on the installed FW. You can also expect the flashing to be gone or reduced, since overall 240p compatibility was greatly improved with the same update the 240p recognition came on board.

PREP is reinterlacing for 480p sources. PREP and Cadence detection should be off for games. Cadence detection always requires a few frames to be buffered. As usual you can check the current lag by looking at the audio delay slider and how far it's from its max. negative value.

[Xyga]

Okay thanks !

As for my computer it's a an old laptop running XP SP3... ouch.

Well it's got a PCMCIA slot, so if I can't use my current adapter maybe I can buy an adapter card...