Shmup stinkers

[BPzeBanshee]

Soldner-X is bad. The sequel, Soldner-X 2, is better by miles.

[Special World]

I always thought people preferred the second soldnerX to the first one.

I havn't played either though.

I haven't played the first one, but the second is really obnoxious.

[Ghegs]

-Legion, the PC Engine CD game, doesn't go here either. Neither does Avenger. The only problem with Legion I see is no score. Whoo, big deal as far as quality goes.

Legion doesn't have any quality, have you played it? It's horrible, and I'm not talking about the lack of score here. I actually tried to 1CC the game many years ago, and came pretty darn close, but came to the conclusion that the last stage is impossible (or at least ridiculously, unreasonably hard) due to over-sized hitbox, underpowered weapons, fast enemies and extremely short invulnerability period after respawning.

The only way I "beat" the last stage at all is by losing my last life and waiting until the continue countdown goes to 1 because the playing field continues scrolling forward while it's counting down, so I could just skip most of stage that way.

It's a memorizer to an obnoxious degree, often requiring you to be at a specific spot at a specific time without any visual or auditory clues. And I even love memorizers.

[Skykid]

I was happy to see this thread bumped. I read through the full response and was going to take the whole thing seriously regarding updates, but when I got right to the bottom, I found this:

Also fuck Crisis Force. It's no Micronics--I definitely wouldn't put it on this list--but damn it runs poorly. TransBot over that any day.

Transbot over Crisis Force?

There are times when it's not even a question of nostalgia. This comment completely invalidated the need to address any of the points raised in the previous lengthy post. If this is a litmus test of one man's critical ability, I'd be wasting a lot of unnecessary time trawling through everything else.

I'll try to take care of any broken video links, but that's it for now.

[Skykid]

Fixed links:

Sky Smasher
Mission Craft
Magic Girl (no replacement vid)
Strike Force Hydra
Zing Zing Zip
Retro Force
Galg
1942 Joint Strike
Bomber Raid
Darius+ (Amiga ver)
Spriggan Powered
Viewpoint (PS1 ver)

[trap15]

I can at least say Captain Tomaday and Zing Zing Zip aren't really stinkers.
Haven't played most of the others, so I can't make judgement on them.

[KAI]

Why Broken thunder is on the list, the game is not unplayable, I've 1CCed it twice.

[Despatche]

Skykid, that tells me even more about this useless thread, thanks. I'm still surprised you even made the comparison in the first place. I would feel sorry for whatever rainy day you bought the game on, until I go over the following:

-You're trying to say that a fairly decent, budget labelled, early Master System game is worse than a seemingly high budget Famicom masterpiece.
-You're also trying to say that Master System game is worse than some of the most poorly made and poorly playing ports on the planet.

[Skykid]

Skykid, that tells me even more about this useless thread, thanks. I'm still surprised you even made the comparison in the first place.

Well whatever, the thread's just for fun, no big deal. Transbot better than Crisis Force isn't fun, it's sad.

[Despatche]

I edited the post while you were posting. This isn't on me, it's on you.

[Skykid]

I edited the post. This isn't on me, it's on you.

Er, no it's not. Please don't waste my time by trying to create a conversation from nothing just because you feel slightly foolish. Crisis Force has no relevance to transbot, I didn't spend hours trying to come up with a specifically graded comparison that might fall into a nearby bracket of quality. The point is it's shit, and there are an abundance of titles that are better.

You said Transbot over Crisis Force any day: that's your hole, you're in it. You don't need to explain yourself, and I'm sure no-one feels like listening anyway. It's not the first case of foot in mouth on a forum.

[trap15]

R-Shark also definitely doesn't belong. R-Shark may have some flaws, but it's definitely a good game.

Gulf War 2 is arguable, considering it's just a music and graphical hack of Kyuukyoku Tiger 2, with the stage designs, enemies and weapons intact.

[Skykid]

R-Shark also definitely doesn't belong. R-Shark may have some flaws, but it's definitely a good game.

Gulf War 2 is arguable, considering it's just a music and graphical hack of Kyuukyoku Tiger 2, with the stage designs, enemies and weapons intact.

You're absolutely right about R-Shark, I didn't even realise that was on there. I spent a while playing that after this thread was made (and not because of this thread) and it's pretty good fun (great laser.) Thanks, now removed.

Captain Tomaday and Zing Zing Zip I'm not sure about. I played CT ages ago and remember thinking it was a bit duff. ZZZ, I'll have to Mame, but it looks ropey from the vid.

[Despatche]

This is getting stupid.

You thought it was a good idea to compare them as if they had anything to do with each other, and you thought it was a good idea to publicly state "I'm ignoring this post because someone's trying to deny my sadness". Now you want to dodge that point and others for the sake of "normal discourse". You have no right to talk to anyone about "foot in mouth on a forum", just for this alone.

This thread is complete trash, and half the entries in here do not begin to match up with the "rules", while very worthy entries are whitelisted for some fake and contradictory reason. Everyone knows all of this, especially you, but nothing will be done unless there's an entire page of naming a particular game. Ergo, this was never about "normal discourse" or "fun", it's about being a completely useless human being for 18+ pages.

Please, redeem your thread. You know exactly how to.

You said Transbot over Crisis Force any day: that's your hole, you're in it.

That's not my hole, because I don't even pretend to care about it like you do. You're a fraud, Skykid.

[Skykid]

Complete waste of time

Don't like this thread? There are plenty of others you can visit to raise completely inane non-talking points that don't deserve discussion to cover over the fact you said something dumb.

Bye now.

[Danny]

Hello Skykid

B-Wings is indeed a crappy game but it was the Arcade version that was singeled out as it's a huge stinker. Some people actualy hold the Famicom version in high reguard to this day. (for reasons unknown to me)

Here is a video I made for this forum for a similar topic SIX YEARS AGO!?!?! Holy crap now I feel old...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otef189M5_M

[Danny]

Oh and btw here is that thread I was talking about...

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9963

B-Wings at one point was the messuring stick for bad shooters till someone dug up an obscure korean shmup a couple of years later IIRC.

[Skykid]

Hello Skykid

B-Wings is indeed a crappy game but it was the Arcade version that was singeled out as it's a huge stinker. Some people actualy hold the Famicom version in high reguard to this day. (for reasons unknown to me)

Here is a video I made for this forum for a similar topic SIX YEARS AGO!?!?! Holy crap now I feel old...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otef189M5_M

Thanks Danny, I'll use your video and note the version as Arcade in the OP. I haven't played B-Wings in any iteration, but it does look rather drab to say the least. Thanks for the input.

[Ed Oscuro]

http://flyers.arcade-museum.com/?page=t ... db&id=4024 <- Anybody have some information on this one? Wyvern Wings isn't unplayable and Diet Family is competent enough in what it does. I just can't shake the feeling this one's title was a self-fulfilling prophecy, though...

Afega titles:

Sen Jin is...well, not great. Plays better with catgirl than I remembered, but it could just be that it's very uneven between characters. I noticed that Title Screen Goofball Cloud Kid's first stage looks like the canyon in MUSHA Aleste. Stage designs seem to be themed according to different "mythological" periods (ancient Greece with Altered Beast / maybe some Legendary Wings influences; medieval castle, etc.)

Guardian Storm (no subtitle, "Apple license") appears to be some kind of remix or reuse of the Sen Jin: Guardian Storm graphics in a game utilizing a horizontal layout monitor, rather than vertical. It is much more cramped and difficult because it seems like a horizontal section of the vertical game has been cut out, and blown up to fill the horizontal playfield. Even the small fries at the beginning have no trouble surprising you now.

Stagger I: So, aside from the fact that Japanese people look like a mix of Luffy and Lupin III, wearing goofy cowboy hats and going by the name Leonardo... Check out this character's special charge attack as it works against the large battleships on the sea stage, and then compare that to the P-38's charge attack. Yeah...Afega titles are really inconsistent with the player balance. There's nothing in Leonardo to make him a worthwhile replacement for any of the other players, as his starting stage ends with a rather difficult boss, and his primary attack seems to take half the time to kill things after you power up just one time - but it's still far too slow in comparison with the other players. Afega really loves their charge attacks with a looooong charge wait time, and the very slow rate of enemy attacks often means that you still have time to screw around before unleashing an attack. Other signs of quality: Unmolested surface ships may scoot under the battle ships, gold items can drop to the right edge of the screen where you can't pick them up.

Comad's Air Attack is a guilty pleasure sometimes, but it really is a stinker.

Has anybody played Air Raid (by Seibu) enough to call it a stinker? Arasoi has some videos up on Youtube from the real board and it doesn't look that bad, all things considered. I mean, we aren't going to hold its ungainly board layout and the ugly epoxied custom packages against it

Equites - bleh. What the hell is with the mostly pacifist enemies? I died by a surprise bullet after jumping over a building. All the other deaths were from random collisions. The Chicken Walker-like enemies loved to freeze in place after not immediately getting a fix on my position, which happens a lot in this game due to the architecture.

Woe betide the foo' who adds the baked potato pilot's game, Major Stryker, to this list.

I agree that R-Sharp, especially Zing Zing Zip, and Gulf War 2 are not so bad. Gulf War 2's log-rolling (well sort of) and jet skiing is a memorable (goofy) change to the KT formula, nothing more though. I actually have about as much fun with it as I do Ashura Blaster.

[Danny]

Those are some intresting titles you bring up Ed, think I might need to check those games out too. Nothing wrong with a little guilty pleasure gaming sometimes!

[Danny]

Just noticed someting Action 52's various awful shmups are not listed, they should be. (you could just list the entire game, people will get the point!)

[Herr Schatten]

fairly decent, budget labelled, early Master System game

Astro Warrior is a "fairly decent, budget labelled, early Master System game". Transbot, however, while certainly both budget labelled and an early master System game, is sure as hell not "fairly decent".

Deep Blue doesn't really go here.

Seriously, have you played it? Assuming you're not just trolling, I'd really like to hear what, in your opininion, elevates Deep Blue above something deserving the label 'utter garbage'. Please elaborate.


Thanks for bumping the thread, though. I had quite some fun re-reading it.

[Skykid]

There are several votes now to remove Zing Zing Zip, so I'm taking it off of the list. Thanks to everyone for your opinons, keep them coming.

Ed, let me just clarify from picking through your post, you're suggesting these:

Comad's Air Attack
Equites
Major Stryker

?

Assuming you're not just trolling

Wishful thinking.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

R-Shark also definitely doesn't belong. R-Shark may have some flaws, but it's definitely a good game.

Gulf War 2 is arguable, considering it's just a music and graphical hack of Kyuukyoku Tiger 2, with the stage designs, enemies and weapons intact.

You're absolutely right about R-Shark, I didn't even realise that was on there. I spent a while playing that after this thread was made (and not because of this thread) and it's pretty good fun (great laser.) Thanks, now removed.

Captain Tomaday and Zing Zing Zip I'm not sure about. I played CT ages ago and remember thinking it was a bit duff. ZZZ, I'll have to Mame, but it looks ropey from the vid.

R-Shark Factoid: this particular arcade PCB was Dooyong's swan song in regards to arcade shmup titles. This odd-ball arcade shmup PCB appeared at my local Nickel Play arcade joint in 1997-1998...so I was quite familiar with it. It was priced at four nickels per credit and found out that there's no ending/staff ending sequence...it just keeps on looping ad-infitium until the player gets tired of playing it.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Hagane]

Eight Forces and Sol Divide don't really belong on this list. Eight forces is unplayable without autofire but with it it's not that bad, and Sol Divide is more of a beat-em up hybrid and is enjoyable once you understand that, even if it's definitely not great by any means.

I'd be inclined to say that Sengoku Cannon should be removed too, but I haven't played enough of it. As far as I've played it seemed lazy, a bit boring, but mediocre rather than bad. Definitely not on the level of most of the games listed in here.

[Ed Oscuro]

Agreed with all that, Hagane.

Ed, let me just clarify from picking through your post, you're suggesting these:

Comad's Air Attack
Equites
Major Stryker

Major Stryker is probably just daring you to try to add it to your list - be very scared. Like I said, prepare to be woe betidden.
Equites needs some more consideration; I'm not sure the emulation is working correctly because enemy AI seems fairly (ridiculously) broken.
Air Attack is bad and ugly and stuff, but it appears mostly playable (though lol at the powerup progression, if I remember right). Comad in general is a good source of "ugh" shmups.

Speaking of which...did that gambling game get added? You know the one - with the panic-button induced shooter non-game programmed in.

I would also consider adding the three Afega titles I mention, and of them Guardian Storm (the "what some retards call vertizontal" game) appears to be the worst offender, and a shoe-in for inclusion. Stagger I ended up on my list just by accident, because I was looking for something else - I know somebody was just asking about finding the game again. However, from my perspective none of these are especially good. I consider some of these games playable - if barely - so I am just keeping it open.

In short, if anybody else wants to double-check these games to see if they fit their criteria, be my guest.

And don't forget to post your scores for Major Stryker, here.

[Skykid]

Ok Ed, I took a look at Guardian Storm. Are you sure this is a stinker? It doesn't look particularly woeful from the vid. Perhaps just a little shabby round the edges:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1GsWiJWCls

Equally, Equites looks fine for 1984 - a kind of retro Outzone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIl54irCIIg

Air Attack mame looks fine, just dated, but we have Air Attack Atari 2600 on the list already.

Eight Forces and Sol Divide don't really belong on this list. Eight forces is unplayable without autofire but with it it's not that bad, and Sol Divide is more of a beat-em up hybrid and is enjoyable once you understand that, even if it's definitely not great by any means.

I'd be inclined to say that Sengoku Cannon should be removed too, but I haven't played enough of it. As far as I've played it seemed lazy, a bit boring, but mediocre rather than bad. Definitely not on the level of most of the games listed in here.

One more for Sol Divide and I can remove it - although I'm loathed to, since it's really quite horrible imo. Not unplayable, but not something that deserves to be played in any great depth.
You're the first to mention Eight Forces and Sengoku Cannon (PSP) be removed, neither of which I've played. If anyone else wants to chime in on these feel free.

[Ed Oscuro]

Okay, I was wrong. Who am I to argue with a video of the attract mode?

That "Air Attack mame" shares a name with a VCS title has no relevance here, other than proving the distinguished provenance of the famous name in shooting games. Comad's game is from 1996, and I'm sure it would have looked dated if it was released a half decade before. Important gameplay shit: #4 powerup is completely unbalanced compared to the others. It's basically a half-power screen-carpeting bomb every time you launch a salvo. At the very start of the game, the tiny little soldiers are a greater and stronger threat than ground tanks (a previous game, S.S. Mission, shares this distinctive 'feature'): one hit completely destroys a tank, two kill a foot soldier (and he will actually fire if he gets close to the bottom of the screen). First level's tileset looks ripped right out of a Sim City game, down to the distinctive Sim City 2000 stadium with the little box office out front (this time in postapocalyptic dark gray camouflage), not to mention the Sim City grid! Second level is a change of pace, with a grainy and dithered photograph of a clouds for the background. Gameplay, which of course matters in determining a stinker, seems to be pretty much "don't run into a bullet by mistake" and stacking powerups for 5000 point bonuses...except that the #4 powerup will override any other consideration.

By contrast, MX5000 simply has a tendency to surprise the player. Is it Air Attack-bad? I don't see it. Yet it's still recognized (by this list) as a stinker (rightfully so, I think).

I think a fair number of those responses apply very strongly to games already on the list -
Ghost Pilots, Sky Smasher, Arbalester (Arcade) are basically at the same level of competence (or higher - I think of Ghost Pilots didn't have that frustrating first boss attack that it would possibly be better considered) as most of the Afega titles I mentioned. Arbalester and Sky Smasher don't have semi-interesting bullet patterns (the furious three-way shots a couple enemies unleash at the beginning of Sky Smasher basically require you to stay awake, but they also add some somewhat genetic user feedback loops as you wave between the three way spreads and dodge individual sniper shots, as opposed to the Afega / Comad "barf shit everywhere and some of it might stick" design) but they also aren't terribly boring even in comparison with those games.

Equites looks better than it plays. It's a border case. Like I said, I am afraid of being hasty with dismissing that one, but consider the enemies are found a) staring helplessly at you, b) dancing a furious jig on the side of the wall, or c) gleefully carpet bombing the ground you're about to jump off a high wall into. Crippling bad design decisions: Bullet dodging in twisty little passages, all alike; uncertainty about what can hit you and what you can hit when you are airborne or on the ground (Is it a flying enemy? Can't tell), and finally, and the worst I've seen so far, all the underground passages I've seen have swarms of enemies controlled by radars prominently placed at the very front of the group. If you can hit that radar (can you press the fire button?), all you will need to worry about is not bumping into the disabled, helpless enemies that follow you with their angry little robot eyes. I had a look at the Sega licensed revision, and it seems identical aside from the dual copyright notice.

Guardian Storm is very cramped - I feel like I have to emphasize that - although I dismissed it a bit early in my previous writeup. Of all the games here, the Afega titles have the greatest variety of bullet patterns, which is good, but unfortunately it still comes down to pretty much a similar type of barely competent gameplay - crippled again by the useless charge attacks, careless enemy placement (I noticed that the gold coins that drop at the right side of the screen and can't be recovered are spawned by tanks that don't move). Stagger I is the worst of these, though, adding on a great dose of unbalanced characters and levels on top of the rest (although it isn't as cramped as Guardian Storm).

And Sol Divide! Cripes, Sol Divide is ages away from any of these titles. I don't really like it either but it is what it is, and I think coming to it with notions about what you'd like it to be makes it look worse than it really is. I looked at Air Attack and wished it wasn't so blatantly copyright-infringing and boring, I looked at Equites and wished there wasn't a "make game boring" button, and I looked at Guardian Storm and wished it wasn't just repeated waves of lazy spread attacks. Guilty as charged, I guess.

Also, not meaning to dump it off with the rest of these titles, but something interesting:

Sky Skipper (1981 Nintendo) - semi-player-scrolled map-based medium-res Nintendo game. Sky Kid meets Donkey Kong?

[Skykid]

Is it Air Attack-bad? I don't see it. Yet it's still recognized (by this list) as a stinker (rightfully so, I think).

Sorry, confusion here. Where is Air Attack on the list? Is it under a different name?

Okay, I was wrong. Who am I to argue with a video of the attract mode?

Actual gameplay footage (although still attract mode) is toward the end of the Guardian Storm vid (assuming that's what your talking about.) If you say it plays far worse than it looks, I'm happy to add it to the list, that's cool.

But... do me a favour and just post a black & white bullet point list of what you want added/taken away so I can work it out a little easier. There's a lot of info in your post, but it's not really necessary (and a bit confusing). I just need a simple rundown of your recommendations, and not all the stuff in-between.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm not 100% on adding games to the list, but if you're going to rebut them, actually play them (p.s. attract mode footage doesn't count as real gameplay - you can't just bomb the hell out of everything in a real play and then finish 4 seconds later). I don't want to be solely responsible for shitlisting games. Of course, it's your list, but I am going to laugh if you are just adding things without playing them to make sure nobody slips something past you.

Buut anyway the recommendations would probably be like:

To check (THAT MEANS ACTUALLY PLAYING):
Equites

Probably a shoo-in for stinkers list, but again could be second-guessed:
Sen Jin
Guardian Storm
Stagger I
Air Attack

Totally Awesome Game Totally Never Being Shitlisted No Matter How Many Times I Write It Like This (AHEM):
Major Stryker

Vote for removal:
Eight Forces
Sol Divide

Probably should be removed:
Gulf War II (it's ugly but that's about it)
MX5000 (but it kinda feels like justice being served to have it up there)
Arbalester
Ghost Pilots

stuff

Oh shit, I forgot the bullet points, sorry. Here you go:

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