Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

[Lemnear]

Before diving into the other M2 releases (I only have the Ray'z Arcade Chronology and Darius Cozmic Arcade Collection).
Are ShotTriggers//Toaplan Garage only in Japanese?
Do they use the controller's touchpad? one of the two controllers i use doesn't have it, and neither the games mentioned above (nor Raiden III X Mikado Maniax) use it.

[Unlucky7]

What is the difference between these Batsugun releases, other than one being the Arcade version and the other being the Saturn port?

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2023000/Batsugun/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2282 ... e_Boosted/

[Lemnear]

What is the difference between these Batsugun releases, other than one being the Arcade version and the other being the Saturn port?

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2023000/Batsugun/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2282 ... e_Boosted/

I don't know what the Bitwave port has or how it is, but the Saturn version has TWO versions, the arcade port for SEGA Saturn and also Batsugun Special (1994 but released in 96 on Saturn).
It also has both the original BGMs and those rearranged by big names in the industry, a slow-down function and a rewind, as well as savestates and backgrounds/wallpapers.
Generally the console versions have 5 frames of input lag, perhaps the Switch has more.
I don't know how it behaves on PC.

EDIT: oh both have both versions.

[Unlucky7]

What is the difference between these Batsugun releases, other than one being the Arcade version and the other being the Saturn port?

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2023000/Batsugun/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2282 ... e_Boosted/

I don't know what the Bitwave port has or how it is, but the Saturn version has TWO versions, the arcade port for SEGA Saturn and also Batsugun Special (1994 but released in 96 on Saturn).
It also has both the original BGMs and those rearranged by big names in the industry, a slow-down function and a rewind, as well as savestates and backgrounds/wallpapers.
Generally the console versions have 5 frames of input lag, perhaps the Switch has more.
I don't know how it behaves on PC.

EDIT: oh both have both versions.

I did see this video on it:

https://youtu.be/i59xYcH3EAE?si=Tm8J0Pdx1BEtpya4

Looks like the bottom line is Bitwave is cheaper, has less input lag, but rougher in terms of options. City Connection has more input lag and expensive but better overall presentation.

[Lemnear]

What is the difference between these Batsugun releases, other than one being the Arcade version and the other being the Saturn port?

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2023000/Batsugun/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2282 ... e_Boosted/

I don't know what the Bitwave port has or how it is, but the Saturn version has TWO versions, the arcade port for SEGA Saturn and also Batsugun Special (1994 but released in 96 on Saturn).
It also has both the original BGMs and those rearranged by big names in the industry, a slow-down function and a rewind, as well as savestates and backgrounds/wallpapers.
Generally the console versions have 5 frames of input lag, perhaps the Switch has more.
I don't know how it behaves on PC.

EDIT: oh both have both versions.

I did see this video on it:

https://youtu.be/i59xYcH3EAE?si=Tm8J0Pdx1BEtpya4

Looks like the bottom line is Bitwave is cheaper, has less input lag, but rougher in terms of options. City Connection has more input lag and expensive but better overall presentation.

The remixed BGMs in the Saturn Tribute Boosted are femonemal, plus you can use the hitboxes from the Special version in the original Batsugun.
The input lag is not as high as everyone says, it is there, but it doesn't change much, if you want less input lag emulate it directly and save money

[Randorama]

Please remind me again: which shmup introduced suicide/revenge bullets?

[Steven]

Are ShotTriggers//Toaplan Garage only in Japanese?

There's Korean Battle Garegga and the few in English on M2 STG's English website.

Do they use the controller's touchpad? one of the two controllers i use doesn't have it, and neither the games mentioned above (nor Raiden III X Mikado Maniax) use it.

Use = yes
Require = no

You can rebind the menu to some other button in place of the touch thing.

Please remind me again: which shmup introduced suicide/revenge bullets?

The earliest instance that I know/remember is Darius when you destroy those things that Fatty Glutton shoots at you.

[Randorama]

The earliest instance that I know/remember is Darius when you destroy those things that Fatty Glutton shoots at you.

Yes, agreed; I never realised that they work as revenge bullets, thank you. What about the first Gradius? I remember that Gradius II has them in the loop(s). Also, are there any Toaplan titles with revenge bullets before Batsugun Special Edition?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Please remind me again: which shmup introduced suicide/revenge bullets?

The earliest example I can think of I've played is Halley's Comet by Taito, 1986. It has a specific orb shaped enemy that drops in groups of 4 at a time that explode into spreadshots when destroyed and otherwise don't fire back at you. They show up from the second planet onwards.

Gradius appears to do this in loop 2. It seems to have a limit to how many revenge bullets can appear onscreen as during large popcorn enemy waves you'll kill a bunch, and some won't spawn bullets when there's already a lot on screen? I haven't played much of the OG Gradius though, more familiar with Salamander/Life Force. Gradius is likely the originator of the mechanic.

[Steven]

The earliest instance that I know/remember is Darius when you destroy those things that Fatty Glutton shoots at you.

Yes, agreed; I never realised that they work as revenge bullets, thank you. What about the first Gradius? I remember that Gradius II has them in the loop(s). Also, are there any Toaplan titles with revenge bullets before Batsugun Special Edition?

Tatsujin has the light bulbs, and Tatsujin Ou stage 4 has some missiles that shoot bullets at you when destroyed and those big pig head looking things on stage 5. I think there is something else, but I can't remember right now.

[Lemnear]

Are ShotTriggers//Toaplan Garage only in Japanese?

There's Korean Battle Garegga and the few in English on M2 STG's English website.

Do they use the controller's touchpad? one of the two controllers i use doesn't have it, and neither the games mentioned above (nor Raiden III X Mikado Maniax) use it.

Use = yes
Require = no
You can rebind the menu to some other button in place of the touch thing.

In M2 compilations the touchpad has the same function as L2/R2.
Can it be remapped? In the ACA it's not possible for example, and it's annoying, it reduces the amount of controllers i can use.
So only the games that are ALSO on the US Store are in eng? Is everything else only in Japanese? Oh...

[Arino]

Is it true that the homing missiles in Raiden are just as strong as the normal missiles when fully powered up? No disadvantage in point blanking scenarios when using homing as long as they are at max power?

[Randorama]

Arino:

The Raiden wiki reports that nuclear (yellow) missiles are more powerful.

My own question:

Please also remind me again:

The DonPachi wiki reports that the chaining system works like this (the formula is given for a 3-hit chain):

"hit count * A + (hit count - 1) * B + (hit count - 2) * C + ... + 1 * Z
(whereas A, B, C, ... , Z are the base values of the enemies chained in successive order)"

This formula seems to suggest that after the fourth hit, all enemies (more accurately, all hits on enemies) are worth their basic value. Is this correct? Can someone shed light on the topic?

[Lemnear]

Do you know any program to convert video from 30fps to 60fps (and also from 720p to 1080p)???
Recording a shmups at 30fps is terrible :v

[ryu]

Do you know any program to convert video from 30fps to 60fps (and also from 720p to 1080p)???
Recording a shmups at 30fps is terrible :v

You can use any video editing software to reencode to 1080p 60Hz (I use kdenlive, it's free). However you can't restore the frames that were lost by capturing at 30Hz, so reencoding from 30Hz to 60Hz will actually do nothing to improve the video.

[Lemnear]

However you can't restore the frames that were lost by capturing at 30Hz, so reencoding from 30Hz to 60Hz will actually do nothing to improve the video.

ah here, i didn't know that..thanks..what a pain i really have to get an external video card then

[Lemnear]

I read the original reviews of some SHMUPS (in this case of RayStorm) and i noticed that many didn't like it very much at the time, in fact some reviews were even approximate defining the game as:
"Playing RayStorm is like dating a gorgeous girl with zero brains. It sure looks good, and it's a lot of fun for a short while, but you'll soon realize that you'll be wanting more out of it.", which judging by the score system i would never have said...
But one review in particular struck me, one by EGM, who said: "the gameplay too dated to appeal to fans of modern shooters".
But if Raystorm wasn't considered modern at its time, then what was a modern SHMUP at the time?

[Randorama]

But if Raystorm wasn't considered modern at its time, then what was a modern SHMUP at the time?

Space Invaders and Dark Souls, obviously.
Sorry, but others can offer a non-ironic answer. I couldn't resist the caustic commentary: you have written "score system", "review" and "EGM" in the same post, so you should be thankful that the planet didn't explode, Second Impact-style.I guess that you can guess the unintentional irony of your post easily, tough

[Lemnear]

But if Raystorm wasn't considered modern at its time, then what was a modern SHMUP at the time?

Space Invaders and Dark Souls, obviously.
Sorry, but others can offer a non-ironic answer. I couldn't resist the caustic commentary: you have written "score system", "review" and "EGM" in the same post, so you should be thankful that the planet didn't explode, Second Impact-style.I guess that you can guess the unintentional irony of your post easily, tough

but these people reviewed it at the time it's not my fault.
in fact it seems that the magazines didn't even review all the SHMUPS, each magazine only reviewed a handful of them , it's a bit sad, and a bit strange how the most praised by the press is Ikaruga...so it's true that it's the SHMUPS that people who don't like the genre like

for a moment i thought that the modern SHMUPS he intended was "Battle Garegga"(February 1996) but i think that at the time not all the (many) secrets of the game and its intrinsic complexity were known yet.

[ryu]

Yeah. Who knows what they were even thinking of with "modern shooters". For all I know they may have compared the game to Star Fox 64 or possibly even Quake. If not Metal Gear Solid lmao

[Randorama]

for a moment i thought that the modern SHMUPS he intended was "Battle Garegga"(same year) but i think that at the time not all the (many) secrets of the game and its intrinsic complexity were known yet.

I would start from this question:

"Would WESTERN reviewers for NEWS magazines on videogames CARE about COMPLEX SCORE SYSTEMS in JAPANESE videogames that took YEARS to be fully explored IN JAPAN, and DECADES to be discovered OUTSIDE JAPAN?"

Maybe trying to get some historical context would help you (please re-read the question and pay special attention to the parts in capital letters. Please also re-read the quotes from the articles and ask yourself if someone with actual knowledge of the games would actually write that stuff...). Please don't make me write jokes about Italians and Gazzetta dello Sport as a main source of information, I am really trying to resist

[SavagePencil]

I read the original reviews of some SHMUPS (in this case of RayStorm) and i noticed that many didn't like it very much at the time, in fact some reviews were even approximate defining the game as:
"Playing RayStorm is like dating a gorgeous girl with zero brains. It sure looks good, and it's a lot of fun for a short while, but you'll soon realize that you'll be wanting more out of it.", which judging by the score system i would never have said...
But one review in particular struck me, one by EGM, who said: "the gameplay too dated to appeal to fans of modern shooters".
But if Raystorm wasn't considered modern at its time, then what was a modern SHMUP at the time?

Remember the Western zeitgeist at the time, which was focused on a higher degree of exploration and interactivity (good!), and (not good!) an emphasis on titillation and 3D for 3D's sake. This unfortunately caused them to lose sight of what a--GOOD, and FUN, and DEEP, and GOOD--game could be. And from a press POV, they knew their audience wasn't one for nuance so their writers tailored their content for them. That's the unfortunate truth of that era.

[Lemnear]

for a moment i thought that the modern SHMUPS he intended was "Battle Garegga"(same year) but i think that at the time not all the (many) secrets of the game and its intrinsic complexity were known yet.

I would start from this question:

"Would WESTERN reviewers for NEWS magazines on videogames CARE about COMPLEX SCORE SYSTEMS in JAPANESE videogames that took YEARS to be fully explored IN JAPAN, and DECADES to be discovered OUTSIDE JAPAN?"

Maybe trying to get some historical context would help you (please re-read the question and pay special attention to the parts in capital letters. Please also re-read the quotes from the articles and ask yourself if someone with actual knowledge of the games would actually write that stuff...). Please don't make me write jokes about Italians and Gazzetta dello Sport as a main source of information, I am really trying to resist

Well the current reviews of the M2 ShotTrigger are not only more accurate, but they are also more numerically speaking. (Not to mention that they are all Japanese games released only in Japan). While the reviews of when SHMUPS were "more fashionable" are fewer, and much more approximate, I would have expected the opposite from a genre that has been declared dead for years.
Not to mention that for a dead genre it definitely has many releases every year in recent years, almost more than fighting games... It seems more like a false myth now.

I read the original reviews of some SHMUPS (in this case of RayStorm) and i noticed that many didn't like it very much at the time, in fact some reviews were even approximate defining the game as:
"Playing RayStorm is like dating a gorgeous girl with zero brains. It sure looks good, and it's a lot of fun for a short while, but you'll soon realize that you'll be wanting more out of it.", which judging by the score system i would never have said...
But one review in particular struck me, one by EGM, who said: "the gameplay too dated to appeal to fans of modern shooters".
But if Raystorm wasn't considered modern at its time, then what was a modern SHMUP at the time?

Remember the Western zeitgeist at the time, which was focused on a higher degree of exploration and interactivity (good!), and (not good!) an emphasis on titillation and 3D for 3D's sake. This unfortunately caused them to lose sight of what a--GOOD, and FUN, and DEEP, and GOOD--game could be. And from a press POV, they knew their audience wasn't one for nuance so their writers tailored their content for them. That's the unfortunate truth of that era.

So the decline of reviewers started so long ago? It looks like the same story as every time there is a graphic jump... I should reconsider then all those times that they have declared something "Masterpiece" (even from the past) then... Luckily we have Sturmvogel Prime at least.

[ryu]

Basically, always be critical of what somebody else says. They might actually have no idea what they are talking about.

[SavagePencil]

Basically, always be critical of what somebody else says. They might actually have no idea what they are talking about.

Well, you have to put it in context. After two decades of score-chasing, the audience had fatigued of that. At the time, they were interested in exploring, and narrative, and interactivity...all of those are great goals, and resulted in some genuinely great games. But just like with any medium, there will be newly-released artworks that are celebrated as the next coming of Christ but ultimately age poorly, and those that take years or decades to bubble back up as classics.

And don't forget that reviewers are there to sell magazines, so they are chasing an audience who wants to hear what they think.

[Randorama]

Well the current reviews of the M2 ShotTrigger are not only more accurate, but they are also more numerically speaking. (Not to mention that they are all Japanese games released only in Japan). While the reviews of when SHMUPS were "more fashionable" are fewer, and much more approximate, I would have expected the opposite from a genre that has been declared dead for years.
Not to mention that for a dead genre it definitely has many releases every year in recent years, almost more than fighting games... It seems more like a false myth now.

From this answer and from another answer you offered to someone else, in another thread, I take it that you do engage in other people's comments but simply write whatever passes in your mind. You don't read other people's comments, or you just mis-interpret them. This is the kind of attitude that makes me regret going back "home", for holidays, because it is endemic to our co-nationals and you display it more or less in every post. Quickly, my original question was:

I would start from this question:

"Would WESTERN reviewers for NEWS magazines on videogames CARE about COMPLEX SCORE SYSTEMS in JAPANESE videogames that took YEARS to be fully explored IN JAPAN, and DECADES to be discovered OUTSIDE JAPAN?"

I am going to check how the "foes" function works, anyway (horrible name, but useful addition).

[Lemnear]

I would start from this question:
"Would WESTERN reviewers for NEWS magazines on videogames CARE about COMPLEX SCORE SYSTEMS in JAPANESE videogames that took YEARS to be fully explored IN JAPAN, and DECADES to be discovered OUTSIDE JAPAN?"

First of all there is not only the "Score System" and it was not the only topic of the reviews...also it is a game that was released EVERYWHERE and not only in Japan (and many arrived)...also WESTERN reviewers have reviewed hundreds of JRPGs in the same period...which coincidentally are JAPANESE and they have explored them all and they are definitely longer than a SHMUPS.
Also it is not that ALL SHMUPS have taken decades to be "deciphered", we are not talking about making world records or a complex game like Battle Garegga (almost unique case by the way).
So what does it matter if they are Japanese games or not? They have been published everywhere...it is not an excuse for approximate reviews made by supposed professionals (Western or Japanese), especially in a period in which many more were released than now.

I just thought that reviewers (at least back then) knew more about what they were reviewing, kind of like how someone who reviews a fighting game is supposed to be an active fighting game player at the very least. Or for a racing simulator or any other genre that requires some prior knowledge and experience to properly review it.

SavagePencil gave a more comprehensive answer, on how instead the focus of reviewers (and i suppose the public) has shifted elsewhere over time... to practically cosmic nothingness, starting from the dazzle of the first 3D up to the coup de grace of the cinematography of 4K.

[Randorama]

I am going to check how the "foes" function works, anyway (horrible name, but useful addition).

It works a charm!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

This formula seems to suggest that after the fourth hit, all enemies (more accurately, all hits on enemies) are worth their basic value. Is this correct? Can someone shed light on the topic?

Sorry, I haven't replied to this because I haven't been able to get an answer for you. I think a Donpachi scoring vet like Plasm0 may be the best one to direct this question to. He's much more familiar with the scoring to the extent he's aware of the Japanese community's fan names for the various chains in each stage to execute, etc.

Or for a racing simulator or any other genre that requires some prior knowledge and experience to properly review it.

I agree that in a perfect world, reviewers would have some degree of prior experience or enjoyment of that genre of game before reviewing a game (except, you know, for games that were literally the debut of their genre). But we've seen time and time again, not only with arcade shmups, that this is not the case and there's plenty of absurd reviews of games from early in the console/arcade era, not just in the late 90s onward.

Score systems in a shmup rarely, if ever, get discussed in any detail in contemporary reviews. Even in positive reviews of shmups I've seen the scoring system get glossed over!

edit: There was a post here about a ridiculous Dragon Warrior 2 review that complained that the black backgrounds in battles was immersion-killing or something and that Dragon Warrior 1 was better or something. I remember reading it before the image link broke and yeah, it was ridiculous.

[Rastan78]

I just thought that reviewers (at least back then) knew more about what they were reviewing

And that is exactly where you went wrong, my friend.

I remember only trusting Die Hard Game Fan which gave decent reviews back then with amazing screenshots and layouts. All three of their reviewers gave Raystorm a 90 at the time. They even pointed out the difficulty adjustments made by Working Designs to the US revision.