M2 ShotTriggers DDP Daioujou Rinne Tensei

[Jonpachi]

I'd recommend PS5 pad players check out the HORI Fighting Commander Octa. Great d-pad, and even a neat little mini analog stick with directional notches like a Gamecube c-stick.

[Steven]

That looks pretty cool. I dislike arcade controllers quite a bit and lament the lack of Saturn-style controllers for PS4/5 and every other system that lacks them, so I might try this. Seems sold out here right now, though.

[ThundergunExpress]

The M30 from 8bitdo is very good with a great d-pad Saturn style. If I'm using a controller I use that, but it's very rare I don't use an arcade stick.

[Rastan78]

Keyboard is still the best, though.

For old school fighting games that actually require clean diagonal inputs on rolling motions keyboard is not nessecarily great. Take third strike for example. Chun li or ken players will fish with a random medium button and hope to confirm a super if it connects. So they're buffering quarter circle x2 behind almost every button press. To get those clean diagonals between cardi als on hitbox/keyboard you have to be precise about every press and release. On stick you will always pass through the diagonal due to the natural movement. So it's almost humanly impossible to be as consistent with your buffers on keyboard.

On the other hand Hugo's 360 grab doesn't require any diagonals. The game only cares about the cardinals so on hitbox you can piano or slide the input and be fine. It all just depends on too many factors to declare a certain input method best. Notice though how leverless controllers have increased in popularity for fighting games as circular motion input precision has gotten ridiculously lenient. SFV for example you can basically just mash some kind of random inputs and a super will come out.

For Switch portable I like the Hori split pad compact. Both the analogue and the d pad are good.

[cfx]

.

[EngineerSTG]

Just realised I hadn't said: I'm actually on ps5 here.
Anyway, never mind, there's clearly no way around it (because obviously I'm MENTAL for thinking there's an outside chance M2 will have considered someone might want to still play this on a pad - while also realising that Sony devices have never had a dpad worth going near for anything more than UI navigation).
I'll just have to stop being lazy and drag out the stick....

Same, I play all my shmups on PS5, I really wish the DualSense had a better dpad

The M30 from 8bitdo is very good with a great d-pad Saturn style. If I'm using a controller I use that, but it's very rare I don't use an arcade stick.

Yep, I use the M30 paired to a Mayflash Pro 2 on the PS5 for pad and stick when not using that

The problem though is the M30 I can’t get to work with M2 games. It works for every other shmup but those developed by M2 for some reason

[digitron]

I'm a stick guy but you can't beat the d-pad on the genesis/mega drive mk-1653 or sj-6000 controllers, absolutely love playing Fire Shark on my Genesis. With the gazillion Brook adapters made I'm surprised they didn't make a Genesis > PS4 adapter, probably too niche, eh? lol

[Sengoku Strider]

I see someone's never used a Vita. You can name any console you want that isn't the Saturn or Neo Geo CD and the Vita has a better d-pad. Keyboard is still the best, though.

MD 6-button = GOAT

[Lethe]

For old school fighting games that actually require clean diagonal inputs on rolling motions keyboard is not nessecarily great. Take third strike for example. Chun li or ken players will fish with a random medium button and hope to confirm a super if it connects. So they're buffering quarter circle x2 behind almost every button press. To get those clean diagonals between cardi als on hitbox/keyboard you have to be precise about every press and release. On stick you will always pass through the diagonal due to the natural movement. So it's almost humanly impossible to be as consistent with your buffers on keyboard.

IIRC the stricter inputs on many Capcom games are half circles, so playing Dudley would be a better example. I find it hard to believe good players are struggling with 2xQCF buffering.

My theory on what's going on here is either that the standardized Hitbox-style layout has some weaknesses that are only just catching on with its popularity, or the lack of strong feedback is messing with players' ability to form patterns. When I play shmups on a keyboard, I'll hyperfocus on precise cues and end up moving in a spazzy overcorrectional way. On stick, I remember the physical process of the action better than the exact details on the screen, and end up with broader, efficient, natural-looking movement. There's such a motor difference in what you're doing, it makes sense for the neurological process to be different too.

[Rastan78]

I find it hard to believe good players are struggling with 2xQCF buffering.

Spoiler

There's such a motor difference in what you're doing, it makes sense for the neurological process to be different too.

Yeah and I think that sort of mental remapping you have to do is different for different people. Kind of like how some people really struggle with number pad notation for joystick directions (like hadoken is 236 +P) and always have to stop and think about it. For others it's really intuitive. Probably one is processing it more symbolically vs spatially or some such thing thats beyond me.

[evil_ash_xero]

So, no way to play the M30 on a PS4? I'm looking around for a PS4 version, and I'm not seeing it.
Any kind of lagless adapter?

[EngineerSTG]

So, no way to play the M30 on a PS4? I'm looking around for a PS4 version, and I'm not seeing it.
Any kind of lagless adapter?

Yeah, I use the M30 Bluetooth version on my PS5 for PS4 games with a Mayflash pro 2 adapter and works great outside of M2 Shottrigger ports for whatever reason. Can’t navigate the menus.

I use the 8bitdo Neo Geo controller on the PS5 as well. Should work fine for PS4 too

[Steven]

Keyboard is still the best, though.

For old school fighting games that actually require clean diagonal inputs on rolling motions keyboard is not nessecarily great. Take third strike for example. Chun li or ken players will fish with a random medium button and hope to confirm a super if it connects. So they're buffering quarter circle x2 behind almost every button press. To get those clean diagonals between cardi als on hitbox/keyboard you have to be precise about every press and release. On stick you will always pass through the diagonal due to the natural movement. So it's almost humanly impossible to be as consistent with your buffers on keyboard.

On the other hand Hugo's 360 grab doesn't require any diagonals. The game only cares about the cardinals so on hitbox you can piano or slide the input and be fine. It all just depends on too many factors to declare a certain input method best. Notice though how leverless controllers have increased in popularity for fighting games as circular motion input precision has gotten ridiculously lenient. SFV for example you can basically just mash some kind of random inputs and a super will come out.

For Switch portable I like the Hori split pad compact. Both the analogue and the d pad are good.

I don't play fighting games, but if I did I'd use a keyboard. When I was researching leverless controllers the other day I discovered there has been some discussion of banning leverless controllers at some fighting game tournaments for being too good and those are basically the same as playing on a keyboard.

Some games have SOCD problems, though; Tatsujin Ou is one of those, and if you play that game on a leverless controller it's probably best to get an SOCD cleaner so your ship doesn't end up teleporting outside of the boundary of the screen by accident.

I see someone's never used a Vita. You can name any console you want that isn't the Saturn or Neo Geo CD and the Vita has a better d-pad. Keyboard is still the best, though.

Sucks all the fun out of anything. I also could never adapt to movement with non-connected directions.

That looks pretty cool. I dislike arcade controllers quite a bit and lament the lack of Saturn-style controllers for PS4/5 and every other system that lacks them, so I might try this. Seems sold out here right now, though.

This explains a lot.

Keyboard and leverless arcade controllers are objectively the best controllers for 2D games, as they are more precise than anything else there is. I had an extremely bad experience with a lever a few months ago and it cost me a Hellfire 1CC. Yes, player input error, but given that the error that I made is basically impossible to accidentally perform on a keyboard or leverless, I'm currently considering going as far as removing the levers from my arcade cabinet and replacing them with WASD keys instead.

I see someone's never used a Vita. You can name any console you want that isn't the Saturn or Neo Geo CD and the Vita has a better d-pad. Keyboard is still the best, though.

MD 6-button = GOAT

Keyboard > leverless arcade controller (less customization unless you want to drill more holes in it to move buttons around) > Saturn > Neo Geo CD = MD 6 button. I like the closer button placement of the MD controller more than the spacing on the Saturn controller, but MD is missing the L button and the Mode button isn't really as easy to use as the Saturn R button.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Controller Aux...

Anyway, I'm glad I picked this up. Besides the fact it's a nice overall package, I think it finally confirms my suspicions that I'm just not a 'Top Five SHMUPS EVAR!' person (well, upon looking at the official list™, I like Mushi Futari, but I enjoy the original more)

Once the genre entered this "I will CRUSH you" phase. I dunno... I rather play some middling Psikyo title where if I do well, I can say "Gee, I had a really good run" rather than "Gee, I got really lucky"

[lukk]

Yep, I use the M30 paired to a Mayflash Pro 2 on the PS5 for pad and stick when not using that

The problem though is the M30 I can’t get to work with M2 games. It works for every other shmup but those developed by M2 for some reason

Both my M30's (bluetooth & 2.4ghz) work on M2 games with the Magic S Pro 2, I don't think I've ever even used them on anything else on PS5. Tried screwing around with the different modes?

What doesn't work with any adapter (Wingman XB2, Wingman SD, the Mayflash) is the wired 8bitdo Pro 2, the d-pad is amazing but only usable on PC and Switch. Need to get the bluetooth one at some point..

[ThundergunExpress]

1CC'ed Arrange S and extremely close to 1CC Arrange L (haven't played it more than a few times) and I was focusing on White Label for a normal 1CC. It's too harsh with the chaining for me, on top of being cruel in other spots haha.

I've been playing Black Label more recently and I prefer it to White. Again, I'm confused as to why the main focus of this release is White Label. So a handful of super humans play it for score instead of Black Label so now it's what we get as the main focus? Maybe I'm just so awful that I'm the only one thinking this? I just don't understand. Also you kinda assume that the super humans capable of playing White Label for score are playing on original hardware so again why would it be the focus of the port?

[EngineerSTG]

Both my M30's (bluetooth & 2.4ghz) work on M2 games with the Magic S Pro 2, I don't think I've ever even used them on anything else on PS5. Tried screwing around with the different modes?

What doesn't work with any adapter (Wingman XB2, Wingman SD, the Mayflash) is the wired 8bitdo Pro 2, the d-pad is amazing but only usable on PC and Switch. Need to get the bluetooth one at some point..

Interesting, yeah I’ve spent tons of time trying different mode combinations. So far it’s been Ketsui, DOJ and Esp Ra.De I can’t use it on. No button besides the A button seems to work, including the dpad. Coincidentally, the 8bitdo neo Geo controller works fine paired to the Magic S Pro 2 adapter. This means it’s most likely something with the M30 but it works fine with every other shmup/game

[Some-Mist]

I'm currently considering going as far as removing the levers from my arcade cabinet and replacing them with WASD keys instead.

even if it were my preferred control method for arcade games I don't think I'd ever be able to do this. I can already imagine when having buds over who want to game on the cab and just getting a blank stare because none of them are used to using that format for arcade games

not to mention they already get frustrated with the difficulty of daioujou, and that would make it even worse lol

[Rastan78]

It seems like with WASD controls left/right movement, since it uses a finger for each, is more optimal than up/down.

[Some-Mist]

oh yea, I definitely get it. oddly but also in lieu of the topic of this thread, it first clicked for me during icarus's special demonstration #2 featuring prometheus who plays daioujou with a keyboard, and he explains in the video annotations that he prefers it for the optimal movement

[Rastan78]

Will have to check out that DOJ replay. Icarus does God's work with those.

Yeah I can see the the advantages. I only shy away from saying any one method is objectively best as if there are no pros and cons. Usually it's best to stick with what you know and feel comfortable with.

[Some-Mist]

might as well link it here to make it easy for everyone to find. he just did that big re-release w/ that thread about it on here

https://youtu.be/tJ-uwxsBhwY

viewtopic.php?t=45894

[gray117]

I've been playing Black Label more recently and I prefer it to White. Again, I'm confused as to why the main focus of this release is White Label. So a handful of super humans play it for score instead of Black Label so now it's what we get as the main focus? Maybe I'm just so awful that I'm the only one thinking this? I just don't understand. Also you kinda assume that the super humans capable of playing White Label for score are playing on original hardware so again why would it be the focus of the port?

Yes and no.

You're going to respond to the 'pro' scene. You just have to. This the crowd that fascinates everyone. This is what underwrites the value of a given game - even if the scene is so small they're not your actual target market. It's probably also a scene you want to respond to as a (second hand) dev personally... No love letter, but a serious nod as a mark of respect.

Personally I really like this re-discovery of white label. Sure, it's a shame not more time went on black label too. But to me black label is still pretty much super human.... So maybe if they had not bothered with some of the arranges we could have had more emphasis on bl too? (I would personally be up for this no matter how both wl and bl destroy me)... On the flip side you're then not adding anything extra and/or a more friendly way of playing...

I also wouldn't assume all super humans have or want the arcade hardware. Even pgm hack versions. I'm sure a lot do, but a nice port on a contemporary bit of hardware is probably just that bit more accessible and an important kind of recognition these aren't dead games... And I suspect that many just don't want the angst of dealing or relying on old hardware even if they do enjoy playing on it.

[slateman]

DOJ is the best shmup ever. I've thought this since I imported the PS2 game 20 years ago. And while there have certainly been great games since, to me, nothing has surpassed it. M2's other ports have been spectacular, but though Ketsui and Garegga are phenomenal games, they just don't draw me in like DOJ does. Now that I have reason to sink my teeth into one of their ports, I must say, this version is simply the best version of the best shmup ever. It's just astonishing.

We all have our favorite games ever. But every so often when we return to them 5, 10, 20 years later, their luster has faded somewhat. It doesn't look as good as it did, or there are certain frustrations that didn't irk us in the past. With DOJ, none of this exists. 10 minutes into my first run, I was just smiling. This game remains the greatest and M2's treatment only improves on it, giving us black label finally, giving us DDP3, with wonderful casual modes, perfect gadgets and a sleek presentation.

I know no one here asked for a review, but if anyoe is on the fence: don't hesitate.

[professor ganson]

The M30 from 8bitdo is very good with a great d-pad Saturn style. If I'm using a controller I use that, but it's very rare I don't use an arcade stick.

Yes, I just picked one of these up for play with the Steam deck, and I'm really impressed so far. It took me a minute to get it to pair, but I've loved everything else about it.

[ThundergunExpress]

I've been playing Black Label more recently and I prefer it to White. Again, I'm confused as to why the main focus of this release is White Label. So a handful of super humans play it for score instead of Black Label so now it's what we get as the main focus? Maybe I'm just so awful that I'm the only one thinking this? I just don't understand. Also you kinda assume that the super humans capable of playing White Label for score are playing on original hardware so again why would it be the focus of the port?

Yes and no.

You're going to respond to the 'pro' scene. You just have to. This the crowd that fascinates everyone. This is what underwrites the value of a given game - even if the scene is so small they're not your actual target market. It's probably also a scene you want to respond to as a (second hand) dev personally... No love letter, but a serious nod as a mark of respect.

Personally I really like this re-discovery of white label. Sure, it's a shame not more time went on black label too. But to me black label is still pretty much super human.... So maybe if they had not bothered with some of the arranges we could have had more emphasis on bl too? (I would personally be up for this no matter how both wl and bl destroy me)... On the flip side you're then not adding anything extra and/or a more friendly way of playing...

I also wouldn't assume all super humans have or want the arcade hardware. Even pgm hack versions. I'm sure a lot do, but a nice port on a contemporary bit of hardware is probably just that bit more accessible and an important kind of recognition these aren't dead games... And I suspect that many just don't want the angst of dealing or relying on old hardware even if they do enjoy playing on it.

Thank you for this great response. I honestly forgot that this was developed on janky hardware, and you make an excellent point about the super human players.

Overall I love the game and this release a great deal and the lack of love for Black Label is more of a personal nitpick than anything else.


Also glad to see I'm not the only huge fan of the M30 controller. It's a decent price as well as having an amazing d-pad and button setup. I haven't had a chance to try retro bits officially licensed Saturn controller, but I've heard that the M30 is very similar.

[AGermanArtist]

Toaplan aside, what next for Shot Triggers? I think everyone wanted DOJ and now you have it, what next?

[eksratu]

My copy finally arrived! It plays like a dream while in-game, but the menus are wonky. Some navigation inputs just sorta disappear or get processed an entire second after I press them. It's like the game is repeatedly struggling to load something every several seconds.

Arrange S and Arrange L have been taking most of my attention. They're fun.

[slateman]

Toaplan aside, what next for Shot Triggers? I think everyone wanted DOJ and now you have it, what next?

Futari. Pretty please. Yes, I know it's on the 360.
Keep thinking that'd be all I'd need. But then I realize there's no DDP port for most to play.

Playing the arrange modes and really enjoying how they differ from novice to expert, even with EX arrange dishing out so many extra lives. It's fantastic.

[EngineerSTG]

Toaplan aside, what next for Shot Triggers? I think everyone wanted DOJ and now you have it, what next?

I’m hoping DDP