M2 Toaplan collection

[hamfighterx]

Hey cool, I found an error in the Hishouzame instruction manual: https://imgur.com/a/fWeZyCZ

"Destroy an entire formation of red planes to get a 1000 point bonus!"

"Destroy an entire formation of yellow planes to get a shot powerup!"

Maybe it was changed after they made the manual or something. It also says that you can get a 1up by killing an entire formation of light blue planes, though. They do have blue markings, but they definitely look white to me.

Haha, maybe that was a change. The PS4 trophy also says they are white, so...

I agree with your take on Hishouzame, it isn't anything flashy, but executed perfectly. And I like the shorter length (Same! is a little too long for my liking). I did think about the post-boss enemy rush as a cruelly clever way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory... that's just heartbreaking for you to die so close!

IMO, difficutly ranking: Hishouzame 1-all < K.Tiger 1-5 <<< Same! 1P.

I think I'll mostly end up sticking to Same! 2P version, I don't mind it being a little more "dull". I'm sure that once you really have the enemy positions down it becomes more manageable, but I feel like Same! is a pretty extreme example of the Toaplan "KILL THIS ENEMY IMMEDIATELY OR YOU'RE GETTING MESSED UP" philosophy. There's very little room for improvisation, which actually makes me a little more bored when I'm playing "well".

I'm not too familiar with the differences in arcade Fire Shark - how does it stack up to the Japanese 1P/2P versions?

same as sumez, amazon.jp shipped mine thursday and said it'll be here 05/05

Yep, they've now shipped my Switch Amazon edition too.

[ZPScissors]

I think I'll mostly end up sticking to Same! 2P version, I don't mind it being a little more "dull". I'm sure that once you really have the enemy positions down it becomes more manageable, but I feel like Same! is a pretty extreme example of the Toaplan "KILL THIS ENEMY IMMEDIATELY OR YOU'RE GETTING MESSED UP" philosophy. There's very little room for improvisation, which actually makes me a little more bored when I'm playing "well".

I'm not too familiar with the differences in arcade Fire Shark - how does it stack up to the Japanese 1P/2P versions?

Yeah 2p is WAY easier than 1p. As for Fire Shark, that one's a little but harder than 2p but still not even close to 1p.

[jehu]

Speaking of little mistakes, in Hishouzame the 'Battle Achievement' still breaks the stage into 'First Half,' 'Middle Half,' 'Second Half.' BIL has an image for the occasion iirc. Charming.

Confirming all your confirmations - my Amazon.jp order is scheduled to get here - Bronx, NYC - on May 5th.

Looks like Hishouzame clear being easier than K. Tiger 1-5 is pretty much consensus. Another question then - and this one I'm really not qualified to answer: is a 1-All of K. Tiger or a 1-All of Fire Shark easier? Trying to climb my way to the peak of Same! Everest, and need to keep setting reasonable intermediary goals.

I've been thinking that - given the 8-loop score on Switch - it seems pretty churlish to complain about input lag. One less thing to help me dry my tears after a hard loss...

[BrianC]

DHL says mine is coming May 5th too.

[Johnpv]

Mine shipped late last night, early this morning and also says it'll be here on the 5th. Really looking forward to it.

[jehu]

I got the Hishouzame clear - feeling happy about that. I'll see if I can learn to loop it again - at least through 2. It's such a pure experience, and the recoveries are much more forgiving. I've been used to fighting like a dog to claw back power-ups in K. Tiger, so it's a very refreshing change.

Speaking of: I'm glad I still had K. Tiger on my palette when this port came out. Clearer than ever before that Tiger is definitely the conscious evolution of Hishouzame; in a fundamental sense its a truer sequel than Same! is. All that Tiger did to add depth and complexity is interesting for STGs as a form, but I really prefer the simplicity of Hishouzame. The streamlined weapon system, the bomb refresh mechanic, the more organic flow of the stages (boss not always at the end), the more manageable stage-lengths all speak in Hishouzame's favor. It's a keeper - and I'm really glad to have it on handheld now. (Believe it or not, the clear was with the Joycon's analogue stick )

[Steven]

Just got the Hishouzame clear. https://imgur.com/a/iPBH3PC

Finally, something other than Thunder Force AC to add to my arcade clear list.

I agree with your take on Hishouzame, it isn't anything flashy, but executed perfectly. And I like the shorter length (Same! is a little too long for my liking). I did think about the post-boss enemy rush as a cruelly clever way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory... that's just heartbreaking for you to die so close!

Yeah, but I got it this time. That wave of planes and tanks at the end is a big holy shit moment when you don't know it's coming and have no bombs and the basic shot level. That big plane boss isn't really all that scary. It's the little planes that arrive during the fight that are the trouble in that fight.

IMO, difficutly ranking: Hishouzame 1-all < K.Tiger 1-5 <<< Same! 1P.

I think I'll mostly end up sticking to Same! 2P version, I don't mind it being a little more "dull". I'm sure that once you really have the enemy positions down it becomes more manageable, but I feel like Same! is a pretty extreme example of the Toaplan "KILL THIS ENEMY IMMEDIATELY OR YOU'RE GETTING MESSED UP" philosophy. There's very little room for improvisation, which actually makes me a little more bored when I'm playing "well".

While I do generally agree with this, those randomly bouncing items will definitely mess your positioning up frequently, so you'll definitely have to improvise a little with the items getting in your way. 2P Same! is going to be my next clear. I'll probably take a break from K Tiger for now and return to it in a while. K Tiger is super long and very punishing when you die, so it's nice to play something a bit less frustrating.

I'm not too familiar with the differences in arcade Fire Shark - how does it stack up to the Japanese 1P/2P versions?

Same! 2P -> Fire Shark changes look to be bullet speed up, slightly different item table, and according to the menu in the collection, the enemy durability is different. I'm assuming they are slightly more resilient in Fire Shark, but it doesn't actually say.

Speaking of little mistakes, in Hishouzame the 'Battle Achievement' still breaks the stage into 'First Half,' 'Middle Half,' 'Second Half.' BIL has an image for the occasion iirc. Charming.

lol yes. Three halves make a whole in M2's world, but only sometimes. Tiger-Heli is like that as well.

Looks like Hishouzame clear being easier than K. Tiger 1-5 is pretty much consensus. Another question then - and this one I'm really not qualified to answer: is a 1-All of K. Tiger or a 1-All of Fire Shark easier? Trying to climb my way to the peak of Same! Everest, and need to keep setting reasonable intermediary goals.

Not sure about Fire Shark, but after a lot of time playing MD Same!, 2P Same! is actually basically about the same. 2P might actually be easier than MD for the first 4 or 5 stages, but 2P is harder than MD once you get to the stage 5 boss and beyond. Try MD version Normal -> arcade 2P Same! on 2P side. Apparently 2P side deals more damage, so then switch to 1P side when you want to increase the difficulty slightly.

I got the Hishouzame clear - feeling happy about that.

Good! Looks like you beat me by an hour or so. How far did you get? I got to area 147. The little boats got me, and then I threw away like 5 more extends making some bad moves against the big ship boss that somehow manages to outspeed your biplane. How is that even possible? The biplane should be way faster, but apparently not.

[ZPScissors]

Speaking of little mistakes, in Hishouzame the 'Battle Achievement' still breaks the stage into 'First Half,' 'Middle Half,' 'Second Half.' BIL has an image for the occasion iirc. Charming.

Confirming all your confirmations - my Amazon.jp order is scheduled to get here - Bronx, NYC - on May 5th.

Looks like Hishouzame clear being easier than K. Tiger 1-5 is pretty much consensus. Another question then - and this one I'm really not qualified to answer: is a 1-All of K. Tiger or a 1-All of Fire Shark easier? Trying to climb my way to the peak of Same! Everest, and need to keep setting reasonable intermediary goals.

I've been thinking that - given the 8-loop score on Switch - it seems pretty churlish to complain about input lag. One less thing to help me dry my tears after a hard loss...

Yeah having practiced Hishouzame again a 1-ALL of that is definitely easier than the first 5 stages of KTiger.

Also I do think Fire Shark is an easier 1-ALL than KTiger, KTiger is probably the hardest Toaplan 1-ALL besides the absurdly difficult ones, maybe Dogyuun is harder but that's it for clears that are still a reasonable difficulty.

The 8 loop Sam3 1p run on Switch is owarabi by the way, he has a counterstop of that game.

[Steven]

Also I do think Fire Shark is an easier 1-ALL than KTiger, KTiger is probably the hardest Toaplan 1-ALL besides the absurdly difficult ones, maybe Dogyuun is harder but that's it for clears that are still a reasonable difficulty.

Kyuukyoku Tiger is the third highest Toaplan game on the Perikles list, I think, with Same! Same! Same! 1P and Tatsujin Ou being way up there at the top of the list and then a huge gap before K Tiger. I know we talked about it before and you said that list is pretty accurate for the most part. Is Vimana really that easy? It's below even Slap Fight and Thunder Force AC. Not really sure how arcade Slap Fight compares to the port on Slap Fight MD, but Thunder Force AC is an almost effortless no miss with autofire on and I can 3-ALL the Slap Fight port very easily. I might have to set up one of those less laggy MAME versions to finally play arcade Slap Fight properly and also check out Vimana, as I just have regular MAME and it seems pretty laggy to even my slow-ass brain. I think Vimana is supposed to be on the MiSTer really soon, though.

Oh yes, I finally tried Wardner on PS4 just now. I liked it when I played it in the arcade and I like it here. Fun little game and there are a shitload of little additions that M2 added. Be sure to activate the skip startup sequence option, though, as you'll be there for a while if you don't. Too bad it's not possible to write my name in the thing since it only gives me 5 characters and I need 7 in the system that Wardner uses, so I usually just go with あああああ instead.

[OmegaFlareX]

Is Vimana really that easy?

30hz autofire breaks it in half, yes. It's one of those games (like Dragon Spirit) where there's no on-screen shot limit.

[heli]

Whats up next in this Toalplan Garage ?

[Samuray]

Whats up next in this Toalplan Garage ?

Are they doing well enough that we can be sure it'll keep going?

Man, do I hope so. My copy of shark action is due tomorrow. Been clamoring for a reunion with "Flying Shark" for over 30 years, neither the NES port nor the Atari ST-to-Jaguar-cartridge one did the trick for me. Bought a FM Towns Marty just for that game, only to never be able to find it for an acceptable price. And no, didn't want to use MAME or something like that.

So yeah, tomorrow's kinda big for me.

[Tarma]

Whats up next in this Toalplan Garage ?

Are they doing well enough that we can be sure it'll keep going?

Man, do I hope so. My copy of shark action is due tomorrow. Been clamoring for a reunion with "Flying Shark" for over 30 years, neither the NES port nor the Atari ST-to-Jaguar-cartridge one did the trick for me. Bought a FM Towns Marty just for that game, only to never be able to find it for an acceptable price. And no, didn't want to use MAME or something like that.

So yeah, tomorrow's kinda big for me.

Similar to you, I've been waiting since the late 80s for a proper port of Flying Shark... first played it on the ZX Spectrum courtesy of the Firebird port.

Really never understood why it didn't make it to the Mega Drive or PC Engine...

My copy is due to arrive Tuesday!

[seattlexc]

So yeah, tomorrow's kinda big for me.

My copy isn't arriving tomorrow but I'm also very excited about this release. Besides a Batsugun release, Sky Shark is what I was looking forward to the most with this series. Ages ago I even owned a dedicated Sky Sharke arcade cabinet for a bit.

[evil_ash_xero]

Whats up next in this Toalplan Garage ?

Are they doing well enough that we can be sure it'll keep going?

I hope they at least get to the one's I care about before they stop. I remember when Armed Police Batrider was seemingly just around the corner, and then we went into 80s land.
I do want some Truxton II, Batsugun, and other later Toaplan games. I don't know if it was the best idea to put all these super old ones, all in a row.
They take so long to put these out, and I just don't care much about these really old titles. I'm not sure how marketable they are, even when "marketable" games like CAVE games aren't block
busters.

[Steven]

Are they doing well enough that we can be sure it'll keep going?

Apparently this new collection actually insta-sold out in a lot of brick-and-mortar stores, so I'd say yes.

Actually, what the hell. I'll take a walk down to Tsutaya and Book Off to see if they have any copies. I don't have anything else to do right now anyway.

[jehu]

Congrats ZPS on your clears - hope you manage that 10 mil. Hishouzame score. And congrats Steven on your clear, too. I think you must have made it further than me. The clear-euphoria got to my head; I just parked at the bottom of the screen, and then died unceremoniously by collision.

I'm also really happy to see how much nostalgia is being swept up by this release. I know not everyone wants M2 tied up in their Toaplan project forever, but the games are just so damn enjoyable to play. I'd really be sad if they aborted the project early like they did in the PSX days.

I think what I'm going to do next is:

Brush back up on my Tatsujin (mister) + Hishouzame 2-All -> K. Tiger (1-6 are already routed, but 7-10 are sloppy af) -> Outzone? (also mister) -> ??? -> Same!

Something about Toaplan's formal simplicity has the refreshing quality of drinking water. I find myself not wanting to play anything else with the exception of Thunder Dragon 2. I don't think I have the stamina to route Same! for the next couple months or longer, so I think it's prudent to bounce back to my Tatsujin, which is getting solid - but still needs work. ACA Fighting Hawk this week might be a fun, manageable candidate, too.

My Amazon physical landed in NYC already, so I'm hoping it comes a little early. Looking forward paging through the book and puzzling over the incomprehensible runic psychobabble.

[Steven]

Got back from Tsutaya and Book Off not long ago. They had exactly zero copies of the Same collection that I could see. Now that doesn't prove anything other than that I couldn't find copies at those specific stores, but it's still interesting that I scoured the new releases sections and didn't find any copies at all.

I did find a very nice Gradius V for 2700 yen, though, so I now have Gradius V.

I'm also really happy to see how much nostalgia is being swept up by this release. I know not everyone wants M2 tied up in their Toaplan project forever, but the games are just so damn enjoyable to play. I'd really be sad if they aborted the project early like they did in the PSX days.

I read about that in an interview with Uemura a few days ago, although I don't remember which interview it was. They released Toaplan Shooting Battle 1 and Saturn Batsugun because they thought they had the license to do so... but it turns out that they most likely didn't.

Yes, Saturn Batsugun and Toaplan Shooting Battle 1 might technically be illegal bootlegs, but since nobody had any idea what the deal with the Toaplan licenses was, nobody stopped them from making them. Once those got released, Gazelle was like yeah, we probably shouldn't do this again, which is why there was never a Toaplan Shooting Battle 2. Crazy story.

Apparently both of those releases are actually emulated, not ports, as well.

Looking forward paging through the book and puzzling over the incomprehensible runic psychobabble.

I've been thinking about partially translating those, as I'm sure there are people who want to read them but can't. Not the whole thing, but just the most interesting parts. I'm not a professional translator and there is tons of stuff that I can understand better than I can actually read, but it's something I've been considering doing.

Edit: No autofire Hishouzame 1CC complete. I wasn't planning on doing a no autofire run, but I just kind of ended up doing it anyway and cleared it without a lot of trouble at all. Died a little bit earlier on loop 2 than I did with autofire and with a lower score, but I am beginning to REALLY love this game. It has that same quality that Eschatos has, where it's just fun as hell to play and I don't know why.

[hamfighterx]

Re: sales and risk of discontinuation, I imagine M2 must be able to predict sales for these releases fairly reliably. Such a niche genre will always have a very steady level of constant supporters, and a very small interest from outside of that hardcore group. They know these are never going to be wildly more popular than expected (and if the absolutely unexpected happens, great problem to have). But they also know that anything shooter they release with this kind of attention to detail is going to bring in an almost guaranteed minimum amount.

That also explains Steven's experience that some Tokyo shops are selling out: M2 probably didn't produce a lot more than needed to account for their fairly confident amount of expected sales.

[ZPScissors]

Just finished making a playlist for Hishouzame which has a No Miss route for every stage and a recovery route for every checkpoint in Loop 3, which has maxed out bullet pattern difficulty (enemy durability keeps increasing until Loop 16 though)

[Samuray]

Re: sales and risk of discontinuation, I imagine M2 must be able to predict sales for these releases fairly reliably. Such a niche genre will always have a very steady level of constant supporters, and a very small interest from outside of that hardcore group. They know these are never going to be wildly more popular than expected (and if the absolutely unexpected happens, great problem to have). But they also know that anything shooter they release with this kind of attention to detail is going to bring in an almost guaranteed minimum amount.

That also explains Steven's experience that some Tokyo shops are selling out: M2 probably didn't produce a lot more than needed to account for their fairly confident amount of expected sales.

I would have thought so as well, but last time I looked all the M2 shmups were still available on Amazon Japan, which surprised me a lot (i.e. "Aleste", "ESP Ra.De." and "Kyykyoku")

[Sumez]

They've definitely had multiple productions runs. Some of them were out of print at a point, and then returned to stock later.

[ZPScissors]

Hishouzame 4-ALL, crashed out at the start of Loop 5 because I simply was testing my consistency, and I also wanted to stop before I hit the replay file size limit which probably would happen around Loop 5 or 6. Seems I'm not quite up to 10m consistency yet but things are getting better.

[Steven]

I just tried that NES Sky Shark and it's something. Something that I probably won't spend much more time with, but still something. It moves fast as hell. The pacing of the arcade game was done for a reason (to force routing, in this case), so when you take that away it ruins the original intent of the game. I don't really care about graphics at all, but there are spots where it looks only slightly better than an SG-1000 game, like on stage 2. Never had an NES or Famicom, but I'm pretty sure it can do better than that.

[Augemitbutter]

got mine today. I'm pleased amazon learned to pack these better. I only have a tiny crease in the extra cover. Gave the game a quick play and once again i feel spoiled with this super responsive release.

That's how you preserve these games properly!

[TransatlanticFoe]

I just tried that NES Sky Shark and it's something. Something that I probably won't spend much more time with, but still something. It moves fast as hell. The pacing of the arcade game was done for a reason (to force routing, in this case), so when you take that away it ruins the original intent of the game. I don't really care about graphics at all, but there are spots where it looks only slightly better than an SG-1000 game, like on stage 2. Never had an NES or Famicom, but I'm pretty sure it can do better than that.

While quite faithful to the stage layouts, the music substitution (which is dreadful, sounding like the sort of racket played at the title screen of many a ZX Spectrum game) and poor graphics give it an unlicensed feel. Not sure which was first but it's basically the same game as C64 Sky Shark - which also got a different version under the Flying Shark name. Flying Shark on the C64 seems to be in line with the other home computer versions which lack stage 5 - but hey, at least you're still a biplane and the original music is intact.

Shame this didn't get a Master System release really. Scramble Spirits shows it would have been able to handle it.

[Skykid]

Can anyone with the Switch version help me find the easiest way to start a Player 1 game as Player 2 ship? I’ve been through the options with a translator several times and I can’t figure it out.

Thanks!

[Steven]

While quite faithful to the stage layouts, the music substitution (which is dreadful, sounding like the sort of racket played at the title screen of many a ZX Spectrum game) and poor graphics give it an unlicensed feel. Not sure which was first but it's basically the same game as C64 Sky Shark - which also got a different version under the Flying Shark name. Flying Shark on the C64 seems to be in line with the other home computer versions which lack stage 5 - but hey, at least you're still a biplane and the original music is intact.

Shame this didn't get a Master System release really. Scramble Spirits shows it would have been able to handle it.

Yeah, it does have a very bootleg feel to it in general. Master System could have absolutely done a good home version of the game, though. PC Engine released the same year as Hishouzame, so I'm very surprised they never made a PC Engine version of it.

Can anyone with the Switch version help me find the easiest way to start a Player 1 game as Player 2 ship? I’ve been through the options with a translator several times and I can’t figure it out.

Thanks!

Unfortunately, you can't on Switch unless you get another controller and set that as 1P and then use your controller as 2P. It does work fine on PS4, though, so I'm not sure what's with the Switch version not allowing it. You're supposed to be able to go to the controller settings screen in the game and then press X, but it only lets you assign the controllers based on the order in which you press buttons on them instead of being able to assign them as you want. It also does not let you assign the Split Pad Pro as 2P at all, even if you assign another regular controller as 1P, so you can never play as 2P in handheld mode if you use that controller.

I have not checked if Kyuukyoku Tiger-Heli is the same way, but I imagine it is. I don't know if there is a point in playing as 2P in 2P K Tiger or Twin Cobra, though, unlike 2P Same! Same! Same!.

[DenimDemon]

Mine arrived today, that was fast!

[Skykid]

@Steven, thanks for taking the time to explain that. Now I understand why it’s being so elusive. I’ll have to go the two controller way, which I actually tried but couldn’t figure out why using pad 2 to start the game just reverted control to P1’s pad automatically. I’ll go into the options and try making the switch.