Anyone else feeling the Daifukkatsu meh?

[DrTrouserPlank]

Its ok, you bought Ketsui, that should make up for all these relatively improbable games you love so much. You should invest in DFK BL next, then you can turn that "lazily-programmed" auto-bomb off (which ironically, is only there for players like you)

As we STILL don't have a single example of a bullet hell you DO like, even though you claim to enjoy the genre, you're just a troll. A fairly entertaining, witty troll, but still a troll.

I already have done. It'll be a couple of weeks until I get it because it's got a 1 week lead-time on Play-Asia at the moment.

I like most of the games I've got to some extent. The games themselves in the way they play and what you have to do are good. My issue is with what I consider to be excessive difficulty that appears insurmountable even with significant amounts of practice.

The most fun I have with a shooter is when it is new and there is no expectation of ability. The first few hours are fine because you make progress and die at fairly normal points without feeling an obligation to be able to clear it. As time passes however and the amount of time practiced increases the feeling that you should be progressing increases, and when you invariably don't make progress in line with your expectations that is when the frustration sets in.

I disagree also with the suggestion that I'm a "troll". I am simply expressing a view which appears to be at odds with what most people here think. If everyone here sat around high-fiving each other about how perfect every Cave game was then that wouldn't really be the basis for very interesting discussion. I know some people here seem to take what I say very personally (almost irrationally so), maybe that's why you think I'm a troll, but it's a little unfair to brand me a troll because of the over-emotional responses that my posts seem to elicit when that is not their purpose.

[Zaarock]

You should invest in DFK BL next, then you can turn that "lazily-programmed" auto-bomb off (which ironically, is only there for players like you)

Or you could just play Power mode on 1.5..

BL has a better soundtrack for sure but I'm not so sure it's a better game otherwise (apart from the autobomb option). Let's see DTP push that RED bar to the max though

[NTSC-J]

Let me rephrase my question because you still havent answered it.

I`m not asking if you think the game has or can be cleared. I`m asking how do you explain the people that can consistently clear it. Before you say that no one can consistently clear it (and by consistent, I would say 60-70% of attempts is a fair amount), there are people who can. Accept that fact. Erppo can, Sapz can, and many Japanese players can.

How do they do it?

also

The most fun I have with a shooter is when it is new and there is no expectation of ability.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Let me rephrase my question because you still havent answered it.

I`m not asking if you think the game has or can be cleared. I`m asking how do you explain the people that can consistently clear it. Before you say that no one can consistently clear it (and by consistent, I would say 60-70% of attempts is a fair amount), there are people who can. Accept that fact. Erppo can, Sapz can, and many Japanese players can.

How do they do it?

also

The most fun I have with a shooter is when it is new and there is no expectation of ability.

Ididntunderstandthepost.gif

I still think it's a point of contention to say that many people can clear them consistently. You name two people and then claim "many" others can as well. Without being able to quantify these "many" others your statement is not necessarily true. I could just as easily name two people who can clear them and assert that "very few" others are able to clear them, with just as much factual evidence as your statement (i.e. very little).

You are asking me to answer a question based on a statement for which there is little supporting evidence for in the first place. If the assumption is faulty to begin with (or at the very least unproven) then it is not possible to rigorously prove or disprove anything which follows on from it.

I apologise if this reply doesn't meet your criteria but that is the situation as it stands.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

You are asking me to answer a question based on a statement for which there is little supporting evidence for in the first place. If the assumption is faulty to begin with (or at the very least unproven) then it is not possible to rigorously prove or disprove anything which follows on from it.

[NTSC-J]

Alright.

I'll try again.

You don't believe anyone can beat these games consistently. I understand that that is what you want to believe. Maybe our ideas of consistency vary, but I think 7 out of 10 tries is pretty good.

If I were to beat Futari Original 7 times out of 10 attempts, how would you make sense of that? Would you claim that it was a fluke? Maybe I cheated? Or would you comfort yourself by saying I must play the game full-time, day after day? Even that I don't think you would want to admit, because that would concede that practice actually matters, which is something you've said is a fruitless endeavor with these games.

Frankly, yes, these games are hard. But they can be figured out. Some do it faster and better than others. I consider myself a decent, but not great player. I'm better than someone who's never played them before, but I will never get a world record due to lack of dedication and skill. I don't blame the games for my shortcomings like you do.

[Elixir]

Personally I just buy games and keep them sealed. It's much easier.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Alright.

I'll try again.

You don't believe anyone can beat these games consistently. I understand that that is what you want to believe. Maybe our ideas of consistency vary, but I think 7 out of 10 tries is pretty good.

If I were to beat Futari Original 7 times out of 10 attempts, how would you make sense of that? Would you claim that it was a fluke? Maybe I cheated? Or would you comfort yourself by saying I must play the game full-time, day after day? Even that I don't think you would want to admit, because that would concede that practice actually matters, which is something you've said is a fruitless endeavor with these games.

Frankly, yes, these games are hard. But they can be figured out. Some do it faster and better than others. I consider myself a decent, but not great player. I'm better than someone who's never played them before, but I will never get a world record due to lack of dedication and skill. I don't blame the games for my shortcomings like you do.

I'm not going to say that practice doesn't matter. The only things that really influence how well you do are practice and a bit of luck. Luck won't get you consistency though so lets ignore that for now.

Speaking from a purely hypothetical point of view, you will need to have played the game a hell of a lot in order to get the sort of consistency you are talking about. Maybe what I consider a lot is very little to you, but I estimate my Futari practice is between 40-50 hours. That has got me most of the way through the game to a point where I'd get to the 4th stage and onwards about 80% of the time. I don't see why I should be much different to anyone else, and can therefore only assume that in order to clear these games consistently you would need at least double the hours I have put in; maybe even more.

[dan76]

I'm not going to say that practice doesn't matter. The only things that really influence how well you do are practice and a bit of luck. Luck won't get you consistency though so lets ignore that for now.

You've changed your tune. A few month ago that was your main argument.

I don't see why I should be much different to anyone else, and can therefore only assume that in order to clear these games consistently you would need at least double the hours I have put in; maybe even more.

...Or just not suck at these games as you do.

You are different from most players in that you blame the game for your lack of progress, not yourself. Check the online leaderboards and you will see hundreds of clears for all these games.

Seriously, the patience with which your posts get treated amazes me.

[Erppo]

Without autobomb in DFK it would be beyond ridiculous. Now I don't like auto bomb, and the fact that it's been implemented tells you that even the designers thought the difficulty was pretty stupid and it required some balancing.

You do realize, that in order to get a good score you have to get through all the stages without ever getting hit and with minimal use of hypers?

As time passes however and the amount of time practiced increases the feeling that you should be progressing increases, and when you invariably don't make progress in line with your expectations that is when the frustration sets in.

Well that's a problem with you and not the games then, right?

Speaking from a purely hypothetical point of view, you will need to have played the game a hell of a lot in order to get the sort of consistency you are talking about. Maybe what I consider a lot is very little to you, but I estimate my Futari practice is between 40-50 hours. That has got me most of the way through the game to a point where I'd get to the 4th stage and onwards about 80% of the time. I don't see why I should be much different to anyone else, and can therefore only assume that in order to clear these games consistently you would need at least double the hours I have put in; maybe even more.

I doubt I have put that much time into Original, and I have barely used the stage practice in that mode either. It's probably closer to 20 hours for me. I have experimented with the last boss a bit though, but my first clears were done without that practice and just bombing a lot instead. So to put it shortly, your assumpiton is simply wrong.

[NTSC-J]

DTP, I agree for the most part with what you're saying now (wtf) but here's the part I think you should really think about:

I don't see why I should be much different to anyone else...

We all have different skill sets. Doing as well as you have with 40-50 hours of play I think is pretty decent for someone who hasn't played a lot of these games. Others probably haven't done as well spending twice as much time.

But others have done better. It didn't take me 40 hours to beat Futari on Original. DFK, Deathsmiles, and Akai Katana I beat on my second try each. Sapz mentioned he beat DFK on his first try. The reason some people beat these games faster than you is that skills accumulate in this genre. Getting good at one helps with another, that's part of the fun.

Seriously, the patience with which your posts get treated amazes me.

I teach first graders, so my patience for ridiculousness is getting much better. Now I don't hit them half as hard as I used to!

[KennyMan666]

I think I'm feeling the Daifukkatsu meh, though it might just be inexperience. I don't know.

What I know is that I'm definitely having more fun with PinkSweets right now, and I'm fairly inexperienced at that too.

[Drachenherz]

I think I'm feeling the Daifukkatsu meh, though it might just be inexperience. I don't know.

What I know is that I'm definitely having more fun with PinkSweets right now, and I'm fairly inexperienced at that too.

This is no "meh", this is simply a matter of preference.

[AntiFritz]

How have you not 1ccd futari (black label?) original in 40-50 hours? Surely it shouldnt take more then 30ish?

[burgerkingdiamond]

Alright.

I'll try again.

You don't believe anyone can beat these games consistently. I understand that that is what you want to believe. Maybe our ideas of consistency vary, but I think 7 out of 10 tries is pretty good.

If I were to beat Futari Original 7 times out of 10 attempts, how would you make sense of that? Would you claim that it was a fluke? Maybe I cheated? Or would you comfort yourself by saying I must play the game full-time, day after day? Even that I don't think you would want to admit, because that would concede that practice actually matters, which is something you've said is a fruitless endeavor with these games.

Frankly, yes, these games are hard. But they can be figured out. Some do it faster and better than others. I consider myself a decent, but not great player. I'm better than someone who's never played them before, but I will never get a world record due to lack of dedication and skill. I don't blame the games for my shortcomings like you do.

I'm not going to say that practice doesn't matter. The only things that really influence how well you do are practice and a bit of luck. Luck won't get you consistency though so lets ignore that for now.

Speaking from a purely hypothetical point of view, you will need to have played the game a hell of a lot in order to get the sort of consistency you are talking about. Maybe what I consider a lot is very little to you, but I estimate my Futari practice is between 40-50 hours. That has got me most of the way through the game to a point where I'd get to the 4th stage and onwards about 80% of the time. I don't see why I should be much different to anyone else, and can therefore only assume that in order to clear these games consistently you would need at least double the hours I have put in; maybe even more.

You're just not very good. Face it. With that many hours in, you should be able to at least get to the 5th level on Original mode every single credit. Lvl 1-2 are stupid easy. Lvl 3 takes it up a notch, but you should be able to get by with 1 miss or less. Lvl 4 isn't that hard, even with 2 misses you could still get to Lvl 5.

[moozooh]

I actually don't think he's not very good. I'm more inclined to believe his lack of goal orientation makes him stumble through the game on reflex rather than develop anything resembling a prepared approach. This only works with very easy games, or with very much experience.

[Erppo]

Also if just starting with the genre, obviously your first clear will be tough, even if it is an easier game. The point I'm trying to make is that you can very well get more comfortable with the genre which makes learning new games a whole lot easier.

Edit: When I was having trouble starting out, I listened to more experienced people who said the stuff I was having trouble with was easy to them, and watched replays of people doing it so I knew it was possible to get better. That seemed to work a lot better than trying to ignore that better players exist.

[dunpeal2064]

Still don't know of a bullet hell you DO find fair/possible with consistency.

The reason I call you a troll is not because you dislike cave. Plenty of people here dislike them.

The thing is, we are all supporting our arguements with FACTS. Your only arguement is, "I can't do it, so no one could do it consistantly, so the programmers are lazy and make unfair games" No facts.

If I knew of one single bullet hell that was designed in a fashion that pleased you, that might get us somewhere, but it seems like you either enjoy are endless helpful responses (troll), or you really don't like this genre.

Its true that a shmup seems really exciting and pleases you all on its own when its new, and that will die down. At that point, uts up to you how much enjoyment you get. Any game worth mentioning on these forums will be hard to play well. If anyone could be in the leaderboards within a month or two of starting the genre, it wouldn't be worth my time.

[Elixir]

I think I'm feeling the Daifukkatsu meh, though it might just be inexperience. I don't know.

What I know is that I'm definitely having more fun with PinkSweets right now, and I'm fairly inexperienced at that too.

This is no "meh", this is simply a matter of preference.

There is definitely a "meh". You'll find it if you shove your hand up Skykid's autism.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Still don't know of a bullet hell you DO find fair/possible with consistency.

The reason I call you a troll is not because you dislike cave. Plenty of people here dislike them.

The thing is, we are all supporting our arguements with FACTS. Your only arguement is, "I can't do it, so no one could do it consistantly, so the programmers are lazy and make unfair games" No facts.

If I knew of one single bullet hell that was designed in a fashion that pleased you, that might get us somewhere, but it seems like you either enjoy are endless helpful responses (troll), or you really don't like this genre.

Its true that a shmup seems really exciting and pleases you all on its own when its new, and that will die down. At that point, uts up to you how much enjoyment you get. Any game worth mentioning on these forums will be hard to play well. If anyone could be in the leaderboards within a month or two of starting the genre, it wouldn't be worth my time.

I don't dislike Cave. I have no feelings towards a company, only the games that they produce which as I've said are fine until you see how stupid the difficulty gets and then the game ceases to be any more than a joke which you seem to be on the receiving end of. I've reached this point with all their games I own.

All their games that I've got fall into the category of "I like them, but the difficulty makes them impossible to enjoy in the long run because progress grinds to a halt once the screen flooding undodgables arrive." After no more than an hour or two of DFK I've already reached this point (which is probably a new record) and it's clear that there's no way to progress any further baring a limitless supply of bombs or being able to play at a record breaking level in order to recharge the hyper in no time; but seeing as I'm playing for survival I shouldn't have to be able to break scoring records just to be able to survive in the first place. I think DFK is actually one of their hardest games, certainly in terms of it getting very stupid very quickly.

[Erppo]

and it's clear that there's no way to progress any further baring a limitless supply of bombs or being able to play at a record breaking level in order to recharge the hyper in no time;

You just don't give up no matter how many times people prove your arguments false do you? Go ahead, find a high scoring DFK replay and see how they never get hit and don't use the hypers after they have full hits.

[dunpeal2064]

I love how you replied to the one thing that didn't need replying to, and ignored everything else... Again.

"I don't dislike cave, just the games they make"

Completely moot. You still trollin... Or you have poor reading comprehension.

[azinth]

Hey DrTrouserPlank, please respond to this post by moozooh a few pages back which you seemed to have overlooked or ignored. I'm pretty sure it holds the solution to most of your problems.

You probably don't practice correctly. Have you learned the stage layout? Do you know what positions to move in to kill certain waves of enemies quicker? Have you found the optimal ways to dodge boss patterns? Have you considered planning out a bomb route to preempt the hardest parts of the stages? It's things like that you need to do while practicing separate stages/bosses.

And to add to that, I must ask out of my own curiosity, have you heard of and learned the basic techniques of streaming/herding aimed bullets yet? Or for that matter, analyzing patterns to learn which bullets are aimed at you and which aren't?

[Emuser]

I bought the port and it came in this week.

Haven't stopped for a moment playing it since.

No meh here.

[RNGmaster]

All their games that I've got fall into the category of "I like them, but the difficulty makes them impossible to enjoy in the long run because progress grinds to a halt once the screen flooding undodgables arrive."

If you're just looking at your own replays, of course you find some spots impossible to dodge - because you haven't seen anyone do them correctly. There are no-miss clears of every stage in DFK on YouTube - if you have trouble with a spot there's no reason why you can't look at the pros and see how they do it. You know why Japanese players are so much better than those in the USA/Europe? It's because they play at arcades, where they can see the best players in the world at work, and they can talk to them during runs. If we could do that in the States, I imagine we'd do better - being able to talk with stuminator would really help me out with Dragon Blaze.

Speaking of which, we've given you a bunch of clear, specific advice (look at replays, read Prometheus' practice guide, only practice trouble spots, ETC.) and you've ignored it all. That's why we're frustrated, I think. If you enjoyed these games at all, you'd want to kmnow how to improve, and as far as we can tell you're more interested in spouting outrageous falsehoods (DFK is an easy clear - I suck and I got it on my second credit ever) than in improving.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Hey DrTrouserPlank, please respond to this post by moozooh a few pages back which you seemed to have overlooked or ignored. I'm pretty sure it holds the solution to most of your problems.

You probably don't practice correctly. Have you learned the stage layout? Do you know what positions to move in to kill certain waves of enemies quicker? Have you found the optimal ways to dodge boss patterns? Have you considered planning out a bomb route to preempt the hardest parts of the stages? It's things like that you need to do while practicing separate stages/bosses.

And to add to that, I must ask out of my own curiosity, have you heard of and learned the basic techniques of streaming/herding aimed bullets yet? Or for that matter, analyzing patterns to learn which bullets are aimed at you and which aren't?

In order.

Let's keep this Futari specific because it's the one I have the most experience with.

I've learned the stages. I've played them all so many times that I'm sick of them.
I know where enemies are coming from next, I don't go to the top of the screen to try to wipe them out before they appear because it risks me getting cheap-shotted.
I've practiced the bosses more than the stages. I know how to dodge their patterns but I'll still get hit sometimes because (as I've said before) you cannot avoid every pattern every time.
I don't plan to ever bomb, with a couple of exceptions. Third boss final pattern, fourth boss final pattern (If I recall correctly), some of Larsa's patterns. I never go into a stage with the intention of bombing. I only use it when I get boxed.

With bullet hearding I'll go up the screen a bit or at least get to one side and sweep back and forth across the screen as successive waves of enemies come with the intention of at least keeping a bit of space somewhere to go to if things go wrong.

I know that some patterns are aimed, some aren't and some are aimed and combined with another pattern that is usually fired at an offset to you.

I'm now going to read the other posts and try to respond before I get accused of ignoring them which I'm not. I simply can't reply to everyone individually.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I love how you replied to the one thing that didn't need replying to, and ignored everything else... Again.

"I don't dislike cave, just the games they make"

Completely moot. You still trollin... Or you have poor reading comprehension.

Well I replied to the one point that I felt needed a response. Everything else you wrote didn't warrant one.

Judging by your displeasure at my response however I'm not sure there's anything that I could type which would satisfy the lofty standards you seem to have.

[moozooh]

I know where enemies are coming from next, I don't go to the top of the screen to try to wipe them out before they appear because it risks me getting cheap-shotted.

No, don't point-blank them, that's unnecessary. I'm suggesting to try using more screen space and, depending on the character, utilize shot power better by shortening the distance. That way the enemies don't have a chance to flood the screen with bullets, and that means you have less to dodge—only the initial salvo. I'm not sure what your reaction times are, but more often than not you have ample time to move out of the way, or find a pattern of movement that will misdirect the bullets entirely.

Definitely don't confine yourself to the bottom half of the screen. My suggestion would be to use the area between the top 20% and the bottom 20%, moving to the very bottom only for very certain attacks.

I've practiced the bosses more than the stages. I know how to dodge their patterns but I'll still get hit sometimes because (as I've said before) you cannot avoid every pattern every time.

You should bomb the most troublesome patterns then.

I don't plan to ever bomb

Why not? Dying with bombs in stock is a waste of resources. You aren't doing anybody a favor by playing like that. I think you should first plan out a path that gets full use out of all bombs and lives you get, and then go from there.

Just to give you a point of reference, I started playing Futari almost exactly a year ago, with my average 1.5 Original credit ending somewhere in early stage 4. I got my first 1.5 and BL Original clears in early April after some 30 or 40 hours of playing all modes (though mostly 1.5/BL Original & 1.5/BL Maniac). BL Maniac and 1.5 Maniac clears were both attained within two weeks of Original clears. I stopped playing it at that point as I lent the game to my friend, but now that I got it back I'm tackling God with moderate success. Two things should be noted here:
1) 1.5 Maniac is by far the hardest clear I've attained so far;
2) Futari was my first non-looping Cave game clear. The first was DDP with over 60 (at the very least) hours poured into it in worst ways possible. I could have done Futari in even less hours if I hadn't spent time playing Novice and Arrange modes which don't help consistency; I just figured out what I needed to practice, sketched out approximate survival targets ("end stage 4 with so many lives", "reach Larsa with so many lives" and so on), and worked on it diligently.

[Skykid]

This is no "meh", this is simply a matter of preference.

There is definitely a "meh". You'll find it if you shove your hand up Skykid's autism.

"Autism is a lifelong developmental disability that affects how a person communicates with, and relates to, other people. It also affects how they make sense of the world around them."



That's two slayings in a week. See you next Friday for the hat trick.

[Drachenherz]

This is no "meh", this is simply a matter of preference.

There is definitely a "meh". You'll find it if you shove your hand up Skykid's autism.

"Autism is a lifelong developmental disability that affects how a person communicates with, and relates to, other people. It also affects how they make sense of the world around them."



That's two slayings in a week. See you next Friday for the hat trick.

So, Skykid, you DO follow Elixir on Twitter, that must mean something... so you two like and need each other... Like... Grumpy old men, tihihi