Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Dochartaigh · Post by **Dochartaigh** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:52 pm

Does anybody have the MAINTENANCE Manual / Service Manual for these two below models (I already have the regular operating Instructions manual for both). Also, if you have them, and it's OK with you, I'll post them to the Wiki so others have access to them as well. Thanks!

Panasonic BT-M1950Y

Sony PVM-9L3

Mrhomefoodhealth · Post by **Mrhomefoodhealth** » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:22 am

Lord of Pirates wrote:
Mrhomefoodhealth wrote:
nem wrote:I don't get it. What's the problem exactly?

For the purple corners on the red screen, try a manual degauss.
I have no clue about crts and what is causing the purple corners, or what any of the test screens indicate, I just wanted to know if people more experienced than myself could tell what was causing the purple corners and how to solve them and if there if any major problems shown as a result of viewing the test screens, I pressed the degaussing button on the set but purple corners remain, any other ideas?
Anything next to it or in the vicinity (speakers, consoles, other electronics, etc.)?

Maybe its damage from magnets from unshielded speakers. Is this irreversible?

nem · Post by **nem** » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:28 pm

It could also be that the degaussing circuit isn't working upto spec.

You could get an external degaussing wand / coil to make sure. There's some cheap ones on eBay / Aliexpress (double check the operating voltage).

Lord of Pirates · Post by **Lord of Pirates** » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:43 pm

Mrhomefoodhealth wrote:Maybe its damage from magnets from unshielded speakers. Is this irreversible?

Have you tested it away from potential sources of interference to determine if that's the issue?

Magicalbottle · Post by **Magicalbottle** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:01 pm

Sony KX-2910 : does anybody have any info on this monitor? Is it good, bad, compared to PVM series?

Xer Xian · Post by **Xer Xian** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:53 pm

Magicalbottle wrote:Sony KX-2910 : does anybody have any info on this monitor? Is it good, bad, compared to PVM series?

Here's the first page of the service manual with some spec: link. This TV has an analog chassis (so you'll have to open it up in case you need to adjust the geometry) and is quite old (early '90s maybe?), so a thorough test is probably in order before committing to buy.

As for how it compares to a PVM, well it's got two SCART connectors of which at least one should accept RGB, and it's a Sony so it has an aperture grille mask, but I guess the similarities end there. Very few consumer CRTs can match mid/top-tier PVMs in terms of horizontal definition (TV Lines), but that's not to say that they should be disregarded - there are lots of people who prefer the softer look of consumer CRTs to the scanlines galore of (most) PVMs. Also, if you want a large CRT you are pretty much limited to consumer CRTs, as large PVMs/presentation monitors are very difficult to find (well, at least around my place).

Magicalbottle · Post by **Magicalbottle** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:03 pm

Xer Xian wrote:
Magicalbottle wrote:Sony KX-2910 : does anybody have any info on this monitor? Is it good, bad, compared to PVM series?
Here's the first page of the service manual with some spec: link. This TV has an analog chassis (so you'll have to open it up in case you need to adjust the geometry) and is quite old (early '90s maybe?), so a thorough test is probably in order before committing to buy.

As for how it compares to a PVM, well it's got two SCART connectors of which at least one should accept RGB, and it's a Sony so it has an aperture grille mask, but I guess the similarities end there. Very few consumer CRTs can match mid/top-tier PVMs in terms of horizontal definition (TV Lines), but that's not to say that they should be disregarded - there are lots of people who prefer the softer look of consumer CRTs to the scanlines galore of (most) PVMs. Also, if you want a large CRT you are pretty much limited to consumer CRTs, as large PVMs/presentation monitors are very difficult to find (well, at least around my place).

Thanks, that was the only info I found as well. It does say trinitron video monitor though. I'll check it out anyway.

LDigital · Post by **LDigital** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:42 pm

Has anyone here bought and installed one of Savon-Pat bvm upgrade kits?
Any thoughts on how your unit and geometry etc were before and after?

MKL · Post by **MKL** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:20 pm

Magicalbottle wrote:It does say trinitron video monitor though.

Because it's a monitor and not a TV so it will not have a tuner. And if it were a TV it would be a KV- not a KX-. It has a TV chassis though, the AE1 which was used in the period 1987-90. Interestingly none of the AE1 TVs had a 29" tube (max size back then was 27") so it should be from 1990 or 1991 when Sony switched to 29". Personally, of all Sony TVs the AE1 models have the picture I like the most but I would recommend a set like this only to someone who can service it.

gordon-creAtive · Post by **gordon-creAtive** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:18 pm

I do have do opportunity to buy a BVM-20F1E with 19k hours on record for 100€ (120 USD). However the monitor has color shifting on the edges - the red is clearly off. Is this worth it? Can this be fixed by calibration?

Dochartaigh · Post by **Dochartaigh** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:06 pm

LDigital wrote:Has anyone here bought and installed one of Savon-Pat bvm upgrade kits?
Any thoughts on how your unit and geometry etc were before and after?

I bought one - I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with what it includes. There's a mere 23 caps. $55 shipped for literally what? $10 worth of parts? I was also expecting diagrams with highlighted areas of where I should install the caps...nothing but an index card showing the part number and value... I love Savon-Pat (giving him a call for advice really is PRICELESS), but I was expecting more (honestly expected every single cap to be in there, of the correct recommended 'upgraded' value, with printouts showing where they go, and perhaps a 'recommended' list of what normally goes first so you could try those parts first before replacing everything inside the monitor).

LDigital · Post by **LDigital** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:05 pm

Probably just the convergence. Get it

LDigital · Post by **LDigital** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:18 pm

Dochartaigh wrote:
LDigital wrote:Has anyone here bought and installed one of Savon-Pat bvm upgrade kits?
Any thoughts on how your unit and geometry etc were before and after?
I bought one - I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with what it includes. There's a mere 23 caps. $55 shipped for literally what? $10 worth of parts? I was also expecting diagrams with highlighted areas of where I should install the caps...nothing but an index card showing the part number and value... I love Savon-Pat (giving him a call for advice really is PRICELESS), but I was expecting more (honestly expected every single cap to be in there, of the correct recommended 'upgraded' value, with printouts showing where they go, and perhaps a 'recommended' list of what normally goes first so you could try those parts first before replacing everything inside the monitor).

That's dissappointing. Is it entirely clear where each one goes then? If we are replacing caps with upgraded values it's not a 1-1 swap so could lead to damage if it's not done correctly. I was expecting a diagram or some commentary.
More importantly did it remedy anything for you?
I already ordered my kit for my d20

The 480p geometry is pretty much flawless but the same monitor with 240p has lots of incorrectable curvatures. Very odd. I'm hope this fixes it

Dochartaigh · Post by **Dochartaigh** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:08 pm

LDigital wrote:Is it entirely clear where each one goes then? If we are replacing caps with upgraded values it's not a 1-1 swap so could lead to damage if it's not done correctly. I was expecting a diagram or some commentary.
More importantly did it remedy anything for you?

I'm going to have to blow-up the schematics from the online Maintenance Manual on my Laptop, look for like capacitor "C-1XXX", then replace it with the cap he marked at that location.

I haven't installed my kit yet - no geometry problems though (but mine only has like 17K hours on it).

What I'm also worried about is Pat said you have to flash the memory or BIOS or something like that after you change caps? I couldn't find that in the Maintenance Manual (and how to do that wasn't included in the kit), but Pat said to give him a call so I'm going to have to try to catch him on the phone to have him walk me through that when that time comes.

LDigital · Post by **LDigital** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:28 pm

Dochartaigh wrote:
LDigital wrote:Is it entirely clear where each one goes then? If we are replacing caps with upgraded values it's not a 1-1 swap so could lead to damage if it's not done correctly. I was expecting a diagram or some commentary.
More importantly did it remedy anything for you?
I'm going to have to blow-up the schematics from the online Maintenance Manual on my Laptop, look for like capacitor "C-1XXX", then replace it with the cap he marked at that location.

I haven't installed my kit yet - no geometry problems though (but mine only has like 17K hours on it).

What I'm also worried about is Pat said you have to flash the memory or BIOS or something like that after you change caps? I couldn't find that in the Maintenance Manual (and how to do that wasn't included in the kit), but Pat said to give him a call so I'm going to have to try to catch him on the phone to have him walk me through that when that time comes.

Jeezus. Can you post here when you find out. I've been through the extend menu extensively and not seen anything like that. Do you think he meant reset the card?

Dochartaigh · Post by **Dochartaigh** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:47 pm

No, he specifically mentioned something about the software being stored in the system board, and that you would have to flash? (forget the exact term he used) it back to the board you just recapped (maybe that's just a system reset/restore??? he's talking about?). I don't know when I'll get around to recapping so you might be better off contacting him after you're recapped your own monitor to find out what steps he says to do after that.

philexile · Post by **philexile** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:06 am

Dochartaigh wrote:I bought one - I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with what it includes. There's a mere 23 caps. $55 shipped for literally what? $10 worth of parts? I was also expecting diagrams with highlighted areas of where I should install the caps...nothing but an index card showing the part number and value... I love Savon-Pat (giving him a call for advice really is PRICELESS), but I was expecting more (honestly expected every single cap to be in there, of the correct recommended 'upgraded' value, with printouts showing where they go, and perhaps a 'recommended' list of what normally goes first so you could try those parts first before replacing everything inside the monitor).

Pat created the kits based on the capacitors that fail. I've also bought the kits and spoken to him about this. He has been working on these displays for years and the selections are based both on his experience and service bulletins that Sony would publish for the techs.

The index card you referenced includes the capacitor number which corresponds to what is silk screened on the PCBs. I agree that having a printout with each cap location shown would be ideal, but the info that he supplies is adequate for the task.

Recapping the entire board isn't usually necessary. Also, some of the replacements values are different. That is intentional and the replacements are intended to last longer than the originals. Sony underspec'd the caps in some cases.

I think Pat will also recap the boards if they are sent to him.

philexile · Post by **philexile** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:14 am

Dochartaigh wrote:No, he specifically mentioned something about the software being stored in the system board, and that you would have to flash? (forget the exact term he used) it back to the board you just recapped (maybe that's just a system reset/restore??? he's talking about?). I don't know when I'll get around to recapping so you might be better off contacting him after you're recapped your own monitor to find out what steps he says to do after that.

You can confirm with Pat, but I think he is referring to RE-LOAD FACTORY DATA which can be found under the EXTEND MENU. You reload whichever board you recapped – I assume video or deflection.

Dochartaigh · Post by **Dochartaigh** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:25 am

philexile wrote: You can confirm with Pat, but I think he is referring to RE-LOAD FACTORY DATA which can be found under the EXTEND MENU. You reload whichever board you recapped – I assume video or deflection.

That's what I was thinking as well - like a re-do to any settings that may have been changed over time to adjust the monitor - to which the new caps should bring everything back more into the original specs, thus reloading the factory data (he sure did make it sound a lot more complicated

nem · Post by **nem** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:54 pm

Dochartaigh wrote:I bought one - I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with what it includes. There's a mere 23 caps. $55 shipped for literally what? $10 worth of parts?

That's terrible. Obviously the guy knows his stuff and he can charge whatever he wants. However, the listing is pretty disingenuous:

MONITOR REPAIR AND UPGRADE KIT
IT INCLUDES NEW AND UP-GRADED PARTS FOR THE DEFLECTION (LARGE HEAT SINK) MODULE AND THE VIDEO (RGB/COMPONENT) MODULE.

Cap kit
Includes 23 new caps. Some better spec than original.

philexile · Post by **philexile** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:09 pm

How is that disengenuous? The kits work and replace the failed parts (caps) on these boards. Pat is also providing people with phone support when they buy these kits.

People must expect a lot for $50 these days. Just for some perspective: any service center would charge you $150 to even look at your monitor. That total would then be applied to your bill once the issue was determined and you'd be charged for both parts and labor. I'm sure it would be a couple hundred dollars at least.

citrus3000psi · Post by **citrus3000psi** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:53 pm

I've got a weird issue I can't seem to figure out. I have a V402 and normally its hooked up on the output/bypass on my PVM. I can't seem to get any picture on RGBs signals. I get absolutely nothing, the screen is just "off". I can't hit the menu button etc. If I turn the SNES off, the screen comes back on with no sync signal. PVM is working great, so I know the SNES is working. I've removed the PVM from the mix to make sure its output isn't messing anything up. I've had this setup working before but now nothing. Anybody have any ideas?

It does display 480p H/V sources fine. I tried hooking up my saturn and I get the correct image for about a 1/2 second at startup than black again.

Any ideas?

waiwainl · Post by **waiwainl** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:42 pm

I have a Pioneer PDP402.
When hooked up to a single slot mobo MVS (via a supergun) it works great,
When hooked up to a 2-slot mobo, the same game makes the Pioneer seems to 'darken' or 'switch off' the image rapidly (say, 1 second - 3 seconds delay), seems to be related to when the game wants to draw something new.

I get the same effect with certain PCB's, I always thought that had to do with some just-off update-frequency they use.

Both mobo's work normal in a cab btw.

Any clue why is happening here?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dochartaigh · Post by **Dochartaigh** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:21 am

Can anybody confirm that VCR Mode on the BVM-D14 and BVM-D9 is disabled for some reason?

VCR Mode is mentioned in the manual, and I see it in the menu system even (although it's blue'd out), and my image is skewed on some video sources so this is driving me crazy (VCR Mode on my BVM-D20 works and fixes all these issues so I'm hoping I'm missing something on these other D-Series BVM's).

LDigital · Post by **LDigital** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:30 pm

So my D20 kit arrived today and I spent the entire evening recapping the deflection card. The job consisted of 6 surface mount and 5 through hole caps. The sheet provided was clear enough once I was able to locate all the various caps. I was extremely excited to see the difference, especially on 240p content which had some serious bowing and curvature. After having carefully noted down all my settings in the extend menu I powered her up and did a factory reset on the card as discussed. To my surprise the geometry is..... exactly...... the......same.
Disappointingly, I can't see any improvement or difference at all. I ended up having to rekey my old settings to get it back how I can somewhat tolerate but all the old problems remain.
Thankfully 480p is still flawless

xga · Post by **xga** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:51 am

LDigital wrote:So my D20 kit arrived today and I spent the entire evening recapping the deflection card. The job consisted of 6 surface mount and 5 through hole caps. The sheet provided was clear enough once I was able to locate all the various caps. I was extremely excited to see the difference, especially on 240p content which had some serious bowing and curvature. After having carefully noted down all my settings in the extend menu I powered her up and did a factory reset on the card as discussed. To my surprise the geometry is..... exactly...... the......same.
Disappointingly, I can't see any improvement or difference at all. I ended up having to rekey my old settings to get it back how I can somewhat tolerate but all the old problems remain.
Thankfully 480p is still flawless

Did you do the video board as well? From memory there are around 12 caps in the re-cap kit for the D20 video board.

LDigital · Post by **LDigital** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:09 am

Not yet but I will soon. I doubt that will affect the geometry anyhow

nem · Post by **nem** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:34 pm

philexile wrote:How is that disengenuous? The kits work and replace the failed parts (caps) on these boards. Pat is also providing people with phone support when they buy these kits.

That's awesome. However, in the ad there's no mention of him providing free phone support with the kits.

People must expect a lot for $50 these days. Just for some perspective: any service center would charge you $150 to even look at your monitor. That total would then be applied to your bill once the issue was determined and you'd be charged for both parts and labor. I'm sure it would be a couple hundred dollars at least.

I don't understand your comparison. He's selling a ready to made kit (a literal one size fits all) that might or might not (as in the case above) fix issues with your monitor. I'm sure if I would bring my monitor for him to look at he would charge whatever is the standard rate in the industry for the check up. And that's perfectly fine, obviously he's an expert in his field.

However, his upgrade kit is a handful of caps that could be bought from anywhere else for $10 and a cap list. Personally I would just prefer the seller to be upfront on what it is exactly that I'm buying, so I as a potential customer can make a better, more informed decision whether or not I want to buy it.

With that said, I also know this seems to be the standard practice in the industry. I had a broken WG D9400 in one of my cabs. I looked up info online on how to fix it and ran in to this:

https://na.suzohapp.com/products/monitors/49-1153-00

"This kit includes parts to refurbish the main board (known as the deflection board), the attached neckboard, capacitors, and the power supply.
Often, installing this kit will repair most problems and ensure reliable operation of your D9400 for years to come"

Again, parts to refurbish is just code speak for a bunch of caps.

I don't know, it just seems pointless obfuscation.

Also, the last two faulty monitors I worked on, installing new caps didn't change a single thing.

philexile · Post by **philexile** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:30 pm

LDigital wrote:Not yet but I will soon. I doubt that will affect the geometry anyhow

You have to recap both boards to have a chance of fixing your geometry issue.

Do you know the history of your display? For instance: are you sure that the deflection module and video board were the originals that came installed with it from the factory – or that other parts were replaced? A factory reset doesn't take those factors into account.

Basically, you can't just do a factory reset after a recap and expect it resolve your problem 100%. You'll have to do a proper calibration to get it to where you want it to be. That involves having the right tools for the job and a signal generator. If that is beyond your skillset and you demand excellence, then you'll need to take it to a service tech.

philexile · Post by **philexile** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:38 pm

nem wrote:He's selling a ready to made kit (a literal one size fits all) that might or might not (as in the case above) fix issues with your monitor.

LDigital still hasn't completed the recap and also hasn't adjusted the settings which is necessary. These monitors aren't "easy" – they require patience and a lot of work.

nem wrote: I'm sure if I would bring my monitor for him to look at he would charge whatever is the standard rate in the industry for the check up. And that's perfectly fine, obviously he's an expert in his field.

You should do that. Maybe you'll be surprised.

nem wrote: However, his upgrade kit is a handful of caps that could be bought from anywhere else for $10 and a cap list.

If someone wants to take that route, no one is stopping them. You can find and download the service manuals for these monitors and get the cap list from there. Using an ESR meter you can dig around on each board and find suspect capacitors in most cases – but not all.

People are paying for convenience and expertise.

Personally I would just prefer the seller to be upfront on what it is exactly that I'm buying, so I as a potential customer can make a better, more informed decision whether or not I want to buy it.

Did you buy one of these kits?

With that said, I also know this seems to be the standard practice in the industry. I had a broken WG D9400 in one of my cabs. I looked up info online on how to fix it and ran in to this:

Working on a WG tube is very different from servicing a $20,000 broadcast video monitor.

Also, the last two faulty monitors I worked on, installing new caps didn't change a single thing.

You're right, not everything is fixed by caps, but its usually part of the problem.

shmups.system11.org