Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

[Steven]

19? Didn’t I hear she was 16, though?

She's definitely 19 because the instruction manual says so.

[xxx1993]

19, huh? Then what year do you assume she was born considering it takes place in 2025?

[Lander]

Is that a trick question?
2025 - 19 = 2006

Thanks for the detailed response, sorry I missed it until now. This was essentially what I thought in broad strokes, which is why the initial dev statement threw me off. Your point about older hardware/programming technique also makes plenty of sense, especially with 80s hardware that only had single or double digit KB of RAM and slower single-thread processors.

No worries The most generous interpretation I can come up with in Destiny's case is that the game tick runs at 30 on all machines as capitulation to the lowest-common-denominator, since it has to do crossplay, and that requires all clients agree on a given tick rate for sane results.

That would mean continuous damage-over-time (like the Quake 3 lightning gun, or whatever equivalents D2 has) has to be chopped up and applied in 1/30sec chunks, which could theoretically introduce precision issues.
It shouldn't really matter for other kinds of damage - i.e. anything that shoots bullets or makes explosions - since those sources are naturally quantized to <30hz.

Thinking on it, that also imples that they're using integers to calculate damage instead of decimals, since dividing by 30 results in a trivially tiny amount of precision loss with floating-point numbers - certainly enough to preserve the original ratio vs time after quantization.
Ints are a different case, since you'd need a multiple of 30 in order to divide without any loss of information.
Could be that they're using coarse 8-bit ints to save on network packet size, but I'm not sure why you would if that kind of fine-grained TTK tuning is a concern.
Hardware decimal bittage generally comes in multiples of 32, but you can do a precise-enough 8-bit (or whatever-you-like bit) one in software if values < 1.0 need to representable.

[xxx1993]

2006. Gotcha.

[Lander]

Perception check failed.

[Lander would later regret his inability to diagnose x93's true intent.]

[Rastan78]

Perception check failed.

[Lander would later regret his inability to diagnose x93's true intent.]

I'm picturing a Mad Hatteresque tea party with anime body pillows sat around the table come Lucia's birthday.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

[Lander would later regret his inability to diagnose x93's true intent.]

Either she's born in 2005 and hasn't had her birthday yet in 2025 (as in she's turning 20 later that year) or she's born in 2006 and the game takes place in 2025 after her birthday. It... really doesn't matter either way. The point is she's a young anime girl pilot whose exact age and birthday are basically unimportant to the game.

Maybe he just really likes his inconsequential shmup details trivia? :p

[Nose Laughin]

Any shmups with an up-down and left-right movement, but no forward and backwards? I'd guess it'd have to be 3-D for it to work.

Personally, the idea sounds dreadful to play, but I'm just curious as to whether it exists.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The only one that springs to mind is Zaxxon, and it is pretty awful to play IMO due to it being isometric. It's really hard to line up shots.

[Lander]

About a third of Galaga: Destination Earth takes place with a rear-view camera, though those sections are heavily styled after the Star Fox school of rail shooter, which I'd guess is grounds for disqualification.

So in that sense, Space Harrier and its derivatives (Panorama Cotton, Space Fantasy Zone, etc) are the closest thing I can think of: Straight shots / no reticle, no Z movement beyond the autoscroll, and so on.

[FRO]

The only one that springs to mind is Zaxxon, and it is pretty awful to play IMO due to it being isometric. It's really hard to line up shots.

Not to be that guy, but Zaxxon is actually not isometric. The name Zaxxon is partially derived from the axonometric perspective the game has. Not that important in the grand scheme of things, but good to be able to differentiate between that and Viewpoint or The Reap, both of which are truly isometric.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I hadn't heard of the word axonometric before, interesting. I would however note that multiple places, Wikipedia among them, refer to it as an isometric shooter, and apparently depending on who you ask isometric perspective is considered a type of axonometric projection. Certainly looks like Viewpoint to me. I can't tell a tremendous difference unless the perspective angle/elevation really defines whether it's officially isometric or not. I'm not even sure it's actually a higher up viewing angle than isometric, as the angles on the walls and buildings look isometric to me (compared to this as an example).

I guess isometric has fallen into more common use as the term for anything game viewed at that rough angle/perspective even if the angles aren't truly isometric, so the term may be used accurately.

[Lander]

Zaxxon arcade uses 30° angles as per isometric projection, so semantically speaking either term is correct, with isometric being the more specific of the two.

Though all bets are off if we're talking about the literally wonky Atari 5200 port.

[Steven]

Thunder Dragon 2: should I be playing 1P side or 2P side?

[jehu]

Thunder Dragon 2: should I be playing 1P side or 2P side?

Both have their strats and advantages, but 1P is the way to go IMO. The spread is a godsend in the later levels. Great point-blanking.

If you do go for 2P, make sure you have autofire turned off.

[Steven]

Thunder Dragon 2: should I be playing 1P side or 2P side?

Both have their strats and advantages, but 1P is the way to go IMO. The spread is a godsend in the later levels. Great point-blanking.

If you do go for 2P, make sure you have autofire turned off.

Yeah, I always have a non-auto button for every game I play, so that's no problem.

Is it okay to bomb in this game?

[Lethe]

After accumulating some frustration with 2P's speed + laggy controls + giant hitbox + NMK bullet visibility I think 1P's much better at everything.

Is it okay to bomb in this game?

Yes. The bomb score bonus is awarded on collecting your last (8th) bomb so that one's free to use without giving up anything. If you don't care about score then use them whenever, you get tons and it's easy to die suddenly if you take careless risks. 1P's pointblanking covered by 1 or 2 bombs will delete the bosses.

[Steven]

I like 2P's speed but 1P's everything else. At this point I'd consider 1P to be way better than 2P. This game is very difficult, though.

[Lemnear]

We have a chart list for what are considered to be the best the genre has to offer.
This is under the perspective of lovers of the genre, veterans and generally, gamers.
But which SHMUPS where commercially successful? On every platform (Arcade, Consoles, PC, Portables)
And which are the most famous series worldwide ? also between whos not a SHMUPS player.

[BulletMagnet]

And which are the most famous series worldwide ? also between whos not a SHMUPS player.

Assuming we're talking the present day, not sure if there's any objective way to determine this, but if you include "proto-shmups" I'd be inclined to give the overall crown to Space Invaders, as it's got enough pop culture appearances that even non-gamers are likely to recognize it. In terms of "by the book" shmups, my best guesses would be Raiden, R-Type, Ikaruga, and possibly Gradius or 1942, though that's just my intuition talking.

There's also Zero Wing, of course, though I don't think most non-shmuppers actually know it's a shmup. The same is likely true to a large extent for the Touhou series.

[Nahar]

Hi. I'm watching a friend play dodonpachi (he's just learning, not a pro player yet), and we were talking about no bomb clears. Are there any 2loop no bomb clears of this game? We don't think there is any, but we're really curious.

[Nose Laughin]

For popular shmups, there's also Galaga.

[The_Fix]

Quick question.

Is it normal to not fight the TLB twice when looping a game?
If it is.... I could be working on a lot more 2-ALLs than I have been.

Thanks.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Generally speaking, most games with 2 loops have the TLB fought once, at the end of the loop, as a special encounter that appears after the normal final boss. Donpachi, Dodonpachi, Dodonpachi DaiOuJou, Progear, Raiga: Strato Fighter and so on all have the TLB (or in the last one a TLB stage) at the end of the loop, with no special additional TLB trigger requirements. Getting into the loop will allow you to face the TLB once you beat loop 2, stage 5. Some games without a loop also have TLBs with specific requirements that may or may not require effort to trigger (whether it's something like 1CC the game in Solid State Survivor or Mushihimesama Ultra) or have a minimum score requirement for the TLB to appear.

The only games I think of that have a TLB with special requirements aside from simply looping the game are Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu and Ketsui, which have two versions of the loop: an Omote (normal) and an Ura (reverse) which is basically a harder, special version of the loop with far more strict entry requirements. In DFK, you fight the first TLB, Golden Disaster, if you're in the Omote loop. The special TLB, Hibachi, is only fought in the Ura version of the loop, after beating Golden Disaster. In Ketsui, the only TLB in the game is Evaccania DOOM, who's fought only in the Ura version after the last boss. In the Omote loop, you fight the 2-5 last boss as usual and then the game ends.

[The_Fix]

Thanks, that's very interesting information. Man I feel stupid, I was always so concerned about running out of resources, seeing as most TLB tax me pretty badly.

Seems I have some 2-ALL to get.

[Lemnear]

And which are the most famous series worldwide ? also between whos not a SHMUPS player.

Assuming we're talking the present day, not sure if there's any objective way to determine this, but if you include "proto-shmups" I'd be inclined to give the overall crown to Space Invaders, as it's got enough pop culture appearances that even non-gamers are likely to recognize it. In terms of "by the book" shmups, my best guesses would be Raiden, R-Type, Ikaruga, and possibly Gradius or 1942, though that's just my intuition talking.

There's also Zero Wing, of course, though I don't think most non-shmuppers actually know it's a shmup. The same is likely true to a large extent for the Touhou series.

For popular shmups, there's also Galaga.

R-Type i was sure, also on Gradius, Space Invaders and Galaga (and Zero Wing of course). Never thought that Capcom's 1942 was so famous, nor Raiden.
Darius isn't famous worldwide?
So i reformulate my question, which were "Killer App" for their systems?
Are these?

[The_Fix]

So i reformulate my question, which were "Killer App" for their systems?
Are these?

This list is based on sales in Canada; and my guess at overall impact on history.

All systems pre-SNES (that could run it) - R-Type - HUGE impact and a crazy amount of ports to other systems makes R- Type an easy answer.
Super Nintendo - Gradius III - Great Port of a famous game, launch title. Gets a speed hack in 2019, someone must be playing it.
Mega Drive - Thunder Force 4 - Remembered for it's sick art and music. I'd say the Thunder Force series sold well enough to take top place.
Nintendo 64 -
Saturn - Battle Garegga? - For all the games on the Saturn I think it has the most historical merit; seeing as it's the best game ever made. Jokes aside I have no idea. There are too many great games on the system to ever answer that fully.
PlayStation 1 - G. Darius? - I know very little about the history of 3D Shumps.
Dreamcast - Ikaruga - It has to be right? It's on so many "best shump ever" lists it's a meme now.
PlayStation 2 - Gradius 5? - At this point in time STG is dying and I think it hard to say that any game has a large impact in the minds of those that don't play them. I feel this lasts to this day, and I doubt it will ever change.
Post PS2 Era - DDP - SOJ - DFK - SDOJ or some other Cave game. And I'm not remotely qualified to talk about those.
On the PC it's Crimzon Clover. Because it's the most like Cave I'd say.

Hope that helps a little bit.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Nintendo 64 -

It's sad, but it's true that the few shmups on the system had very little fanfare. However, Bangai-O has had several sequels, and Star Soldier: Vanishing Earth is quite a decent game. As far as rail shooters go though it had the wildly popular Star Fox 64 going for it. There's also Sin & Punishment, which went unknown due to being a Japan only release but has seen a massive uptick in popularity after Ikaruga became a hit due to interest in Treasure's games.

I'm not sure if they were popular enough to drive a surge of sales or interest in shmups, but Gradius Gaiden and Harmful Park are definite must-plays on the PS1.

[The_Fix]

Bangai-O has had several sequels

Really? Please tell, I must play these.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

There was one for DS, Bangai-O Spirits, and one for XB 360, Bangai-O HD: Missile Fury. I haven't actually played either of them so I don't know how well they held up to the first game.