Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Sumez]

#2 is the crab stage, right?

[BIL]

Yup! Shame it's the only way to see him. Quite the badass crab Kiyoshi drew there.

Surprised you've not played through Lickle yet btw! I think you'll like it at the very least. Personally I really enjoy it, my only complaint being it never quite reaches the pants-shitting terror and mean-spiritedness of FC Rockman's spikiest straits. It's certainly not a cakewalk, nor is there ever a lack of pace (the brisk, action-packed stages are superb for tearing through at speed, once you learn to exploit the three alternate characters) - just feels like they hit 90% tension before backing off.

Maybe playing as Lickle-only would remedy this, but I find him dull in comparison to the other three's lightning-quick switcheroos. Favourite trick in recent sessions is using mouse and dragon's agility to reach an elusive target, then switching to golem and smashing their once-unreachable face in. Don't underestimate mousey btw, he has mad high risk/high yield destructive potential. 3Xsplosions tear boss lifebars apart.

On the subject of Takeru and convoluted maps, I've still not played Cocoron very seriously. I always end up noodling around with my homemade dragon/KiraKira knockoff (enjoyably so - besides the interesting "Rockman physics plus" handling, a couple of those BGMs really shine). I particularly like the bizarrely freewheeling stage progression... in a way it reminds me of a Dragon Unit to Lickle's Sword Master. A tortured analogy given neither DU nor SM are very good, but yes - less polish, more novelty.

[Sumez]

The only reason I haven't played Lickle through yet, is that I have the PAL version (and considering the going prate ice for an NTSC version, I think that's actually justified), so I needed an excuse to hook up my PAL NES.
I actually just did that to play StarTropics, so Lickle is likely next

Cocoron definitely feels like the super rough precursor to Lickle. It's nowhere near the same quality, but it's interesting nontheless. Its dynamic stage structure is also its biggest shortcoming. I think I went into details about it earlier in the thread.

[soprano1]

https://youtu.be/erqnOWi1mb8
Trailer ad for Contra Spirits on SFC. Delicious.

[MintyTheCat]

https://youtu.be/erqnOWi1mb8
Trailer ad for Contra Spirits on SFC. Delicious.

One of the best. Definitely felt like playing a war film. I think level three is my favourite in that game.

[Sumez]

Played through Lickle Samson yesterday.
It's much easier than I remember it being from the last time I played it, but it's also more fun.

Like Cocoron, the basic "jump and shoot" gameplay is simple and snappy, pretty much carrying the game, and you can easily tell that the two are related. However, the production values for this one is just around a trillion times higher, the short intro sequence for the final boss fight is one of the most bad-ass things I have seen on the NES.
However it's coming just short of the things that makes the best games for the system really stand out. I kind of miss a real challenge to playing it through. Even the Mega Man games have this great sense of progression and several highlights in the boss fights along the way. In Lickle, the stages pose almost no threat, and even when they do, healing is so abundant that it doesn't matter. The bosses are generally great fun, but quite simple when you figure them out. And a little simple to cheese by just tanking with the golem (though I made a point out of not doing that).

I would really have like a well balanced increasing difficulty scale, and of course the most common complaint with the game, it really lacks individual stage music. In fact, since they already decided to focus so much on the presentation, I wish they had done a lot more world building throughout the game.
I love the start where you take control of each of the characters as they are summoned to the castle, and the Dragon refuses to join until you beat her, and I really appreciate how it's all implemented into the game without breaking into dialogue and such. But after that it's just one unrelated stage after the other, and as I already pointed out the world map is ridicolously confusing. You just move randomly across all over it, ignoring the obvious path of skulls until that last few stages. Compare Castlevania 3 which does a lot to show how Ralph C. slowly works his way up to the castle, using only an equally simple map screen. This omission doesn't really hurt the game, but I feel like it's a wasted opportunity. I really would have loved to see what Takeru could have done if they didn't just vaporize after creating this game.

As BIL already pointed out, it's a huge strength of the game how it rarely forces you to use specific characters, and switching between them is mostly a question of preference, even if there are several places you can't go with the golem, and you'd be stupid not to use the dragon for the ice stage. Still, this is a great example of how switching between different powers should be implemented in a game, and it's pretty much the anti-Little Nemo.

[BIL]

Like Cocoron, the basic "jump and shoot" gameplay is simple and snappy, pretty much carrying the game, and you can easily tell that the two are related. However, the production values for this one is just around a trillion times higher, the short intro sequence for the final boss fight is one of the most bad-ass things I have seen on the NES.

Aw hell yeah, that shit is KVLT. EMPTY EYES STARING DOWN/I'M THE KING, SITTING IN THE DARK ♫

A model of minimalist excellence, that little sequence. Recalls the regal contempt Konami sought with Rondo+SOTN's Dracula intros - but I think Takeru conveyed greater menace with far less expenditure. No words and practically no animation, just a split-second flash transforming the air of slumbering ruin into one of active, impending peril.

However it's coming just short of the things that makes the best games for the system really stand out. I kind of miss a real challenge to playing it through. Even the Mega Man games have this great sense of progression and several highlights in the boss fights along the way. In Lickle, the stages pose almost no threat, and even when they do, healing is so abundant that it doesn't matter. The bosses are generally great fun, but quite simple when you figure them out. And a little simple to cheese by just tanking with the golem (though I made a point out of not doing that).

My major complaint is the lack of a proper finale. The castle summit was the perfect venue for a simple, frantic last hurdle - I was actually surprised when it turned out I was home free already. Imagine if Contra III's final escape was an automated cutscene, rather than the game palpably trying to drag you down to hell with it... that's how I'm left feeling, pretty much. I still love Lickle overall, as an easier but entertainingly more free-form Rockmanesque - just a rather obvious missed opportunity there.

[Sumez]

A model of minimalist excellence, that little sequence. Recalls the regal contempt Konami sought with Rondo+SOTN's Dracula intros - but I think Takeru conveyed greater menace with far less expenditure. No words and practically no animation, just a split-second flash transforming the air of slumbering ruin into one of active, impending peril.

Absolutely! I especially love how "cheaply" it's done. Like you said, there's no animation, just a lightning flash. They are using what they had available on the hardware instead of trying to push it, and the result is great. I might even rip this idea directly for my own game.

In general though, I love the entire look of his throne room. The clockwork throne and the incredibly excellent use of the Famicom color palette:


(colors are a bit too vibrant in this screenshot compared to how they appear on my TV, but it's the best one I could find)

[BIL]

Seems to be a bit of urban legend surrounding the FDS Zelda II's Shadow Link. I've noticed various wikis claim he's much smarter on FDS, and specifically won't fall for the usual "crouch in left corner and stab" trick. One even suggested he was either "dumbed down," or suffered a conversion bug, en route to cartridge.

So, lately I've been playing the Japanese Famicom Mini version for GBA, which like Metroid, Kid Icarus and Castlevania is based on the disk version. After enjoying the lack of silly grinding, I was looking forward to trying my hand at Shadow Link: Glorious Nippon Ver! How to combat the ULTIME fiend?! Then this happened.

That's actually FDS footage - but there's a reason I didn't bother recording the GBA one. Initially I'd assumed the GBA release was altered in some way, maybe some cross-code with the NES revision ala Akumajou Dracula's Famicom cart release (based on NES PRG1). I was feeling a bit blue tbh! u_u But nope, similar examples of FDS Shadow getting taken down via corner camping abound.

This chap has a video dedicated to the FDS fight, where a poorly-handled Shadow slips the corner trap and goes ham on he ass. He also has a couple more complete FDS runs, at least, where things go smoother if still not NES-compliant. In both, and countless others I can't be arsed to timestamp, the left corner remains the runner's preferred spot. It seems more accurate to say FDS Shadow Link isn't quite as helpless. While clearly vulnerable to Corner Crouch Cheese™, he'll occasionally hang back, or block, or drop-stab you in the face. He can even jump over you to claim the corner for himself - which only serves to really do him in, if you too possess the ultime stabbing technique.

Famicom Mini (GBA) Ver:

Spoiler

USURPER'S TEARS/GUIDE MAH SWORRRD

If you've reached him with over 50% HP and can cast Shield, the corner's still a pretty safe bet. If you're at death's door it might even make sense to gamble on getting a lucky fight ala the first video above.

JUDGMENT: FC Mini Shadow works exactly like FDS Shadow. IE, if you have absolutely no idea how to handle him without 100% safe EZ corner cheese, there's a risk of death! As always, the lesson here is learn to play muhfucka

[FinalBaton]

(BIL, tell me if this is OT. I'll move it elsewhere if it is)

You know, yesterday after watching an episode from a YT gaming show that covered a Natsume game, I asked myself the question : what is my favourite 3rd party developper of the 8-bit and 16-bit eras? I had always kinda assumed it to be Capcom or Konami (most probably Konami), but dang is Natsume's catalog ever impressive. Capcom and Konami have beastly catalogs, with lots of great games, but Natsume's smaller catalog has such an incredible batting average, it's crazy. I mean just with Wild Guns and The Ninja Warriors Again on the SNES and Shatterhand and Shadow Of The Ninja on the NES, you've got a quatuor of decidedly elite games that just makes you drop down and worship these guys. What's crazy is that these 4 games are beyond great - they're masterful. It's truly impressive.

That really makes me hesitate now. Who to pick? There are other amazing devs, like Sunsoft. And other greats like Tecnos and Vic Tokai, and others. I might stick with Konami since I rever the Castlevania series amongst others and I'm immensely fond of Konami's output on the Genesis (truly an amazing run. straight up otherwordly...), but it's so close...

So, what say you? What is your favourite dev of both the 8-bit and 16-bit eras? (choose one dev)

[FinalBaton]

And I still haven't played Dragon Fighter nor the Power Blade games, nor Pocky and Rocky...

Dragon Fighter looks insanely fun... And Pocky and Rocky is a revered game, so I'm sure it's excellent.

[BIL]

(BIL, tell me if this is OT. I'll move it elsewhere if it is)

Not at all.

Rushing atm, but for now will just say: for hardcore 2D action, Natsume are easily strong enough to rank with the very best of the 8/16-bit era. That name is a consistent mark of excellence, occasionally absolute mastery - Shatterhand, The Ninja Warriors Again, SFC Kiki Kaikai and Wild Guns are indispensable. They weren't as prolific as the bigger houses, but on sheer quality and killer-to-filler ratio, they were world class.

[FinalBaton]

What are your thoughts on Dragon Fighter?

[BIL]

Great game - I heartily recommend it along with its spiritual successors Kage/Shadow and Shatterhand/Solbrain. The latter two games grew exponentially more sophisticated in their mechanics and level designs, Shatterbrain reaching a formidable peak... DF is a far simpler affair, but it shares their rock-solid, impeccably smooth handling, and gains a pick-up-and-play immediacy for it. Relentless sword slasher with mild platforming elements, and a charge/blast HENSHIN groove for a little tactical depth. Killer soundtrack too - the best of the three, I'd say.

Stuff lke Dragon Fighter, Final Mission, Abadox and SFC Kiki Kaikai 2 aren't outright masterpieces imo - but they maintain exceptional quality, the iron girding of Natsume's FC+SFC action catalogue. It's hard to go wrong here - even the least of their work, like the relatively pedestrian Choujin Sentai Jetman, is still undeniably playable.

[FinalBaton]

Nice to hear (read). I'll try it

It seems very polished in the colour and sound effects and music departments, just like the 2 NES games after it. It appears extremely tight to my old eyes. I also like how you can transform into a dragon and suddenly the screen autoscrolls and you're in a hori! Nice variety.

[BIL]

I forgot to say, something DF gains over the subsequent two "compact action man" games - a hard mode. Still need to clear it myself. TBH Kage and Solbrain are plenty demanding by their more technical nature (not hard games to survive, but definitely tricky to play with authority), so it's cool the relatively simple DF gets a little boost here.

[Sumez]

For the record, I think Dragon Fighter is terrible.
For your extra Natsume game I'd much rather go with Mitsume Ga Tooru which I shared my thoughts on a few pages back.

[Imhotep]

Dragon Fighter is great, 8/10 aka mandatory material. I've played and cleared it on hard mode some while ago and I'm looking forward to do it again in the future.

[GSK]

Perhaps I'm overlooking something obvious but I definitely wouldn't rank Vic Tokai alongside the the likes of Natsume or Technos, much less Konami or Capcom.

[Sumez]

Yeah, Vic Tokai are in the "strange curiousity"-bin, pretty much all their games being fundamentally flawed, but almost alway interesting in some way. The intertia on their platform controls is notorious.

[Squire Grooktook]

Throw me in the "Dragon Fighter is good shit" camp. Haven't cleared it, actually. Only a few casual try-out sessions, but I very much enjoyed what I played of it. The action isn't earth shakingly fast paced or dazzingly twitchy, but it's all very solid, and overlayed with a cool gimmick that's loads of fun to experiment with throughout stages.

[FinalBaton]

Perhaps I'm overlooking something obvious but I definitely wouldn't rank Vic Tokai alongside the the likes of Natsume or Technos, much less Konami or Capcom.

I don't put them on the same tier as Capcom and Konami. Nor Natsume, nor Sunsoft. Which is why I put them in a different sentence in my post (I guess I didn't word this very well). Like Sumez said, I find them flawed yet very interesting.

Also, nobody has answered the survey :

Which is your favourite third party developer across the 8-bit and 16-bit era?

[BIL]

Natsume would be a strong contender, tbh. Powerful catalogue. I'd miss stuff like Contra Spirits and Alien Soldier, eternally replayable masterpieces of the streamlined, technique-obsessive hardcore that's nearest my solitary 1P heart. However, The Ninja Warriors Again is another of those rare gems, perhaps the finest where infernally elusive stylin' mastery is concerned. With Wild Guns, Kiki Kaikai, Shatterhand and the rest of their catalogue (Penguin Boyeee), I could see myself retiring to a desert island with this stash quite happily.

(I know it's not a desert island pick, but it's the only way I can take list stuff seriously - I need an element of sacrifice )

[FinalBaton]

Yeah I indeed avoided the desert island angle to give a chance to smaller catalogs. If it was a desert island scenario than almost everyone would pick a dev with a larger catalog, so as to have more games to play.

But it's nice to see Natsume would still be a strong contender for you in that scenario

[Sumez]

Which is your favourite third party developer across the 8-bit and 16-bit era?

It would be wrong of me to say anything other than Konami, but it's admittedly a pretty boring choice. Especially when we take the 16-bit generation into account where companies such as SunSoft started to get boring.
Does Lufia count as Natsume games?

[Stevens]

Which is your favourite third party developer across the 8-bit and 16-bit era?

Not sure, but it isn't Acclaim:D

Interesting side note - in college I worked as a check casher on Long Island. My boss had nine stores and I would work in a different one ever two weeks or so. I would cash checks for Acclaim testers when I was working in the Glen Cove store.

After some thought, considering what I loved as a kid, and what I still go back and play as an adult I would say Taito. After looking at the list of what they had a hand in during the 80's it is a rather easy answer for me:

Lock n' Chase
Qix
Space Dungeon
Jungle Hunt
Zoo Keeper - Still love it
Elevator Action - Still love it
Legend of Kage - Fun once in a while in small doses
Mat Mania - 1st button masher I ever played
Arkanoid - Happy just to reach level two
The Warri...er Renegade - Still fun
Double Dragon - Fun as a kid, not so much anymore
Operation Wolf
Toki - Played this a lot for six months or so. Was called Juju here
Growl - My friends and I were in tears the 1st time we played this
Wrath of the Black Manta
Hit the Ice - Profanity laden Friday night matches were so much fun

Mind you this is just what I played growing up. I've spent time with more of their catalog via the PS 2 collection. Also not counting games on that collection I haven't played much of yet.

[FinalBaton]

Interesting pick Stevens!

[FinalBaton]

It would be wrong of me to say anything other than Konami, but it's admittedly a pretty boring choice. Especially when we take the 16-bit generation into account where companies such as SunSoft started to get boring.
Does Lufia count as Natsume games?

I also make the boring pick of Konami. But dammmmmn is Natsume ever a sexy pic. Same for Capcom.

Speaking of them, a series that I keep forgetting is the Gargoyle's Quest one. Granted, it's only 3 games, but fuck, is that ever a consistent series.
Add Megaman, Bionic Commando, the Makai Mura series, the Disney Afternoon games, Street Fighter, Final Fight, Breath Of Fire, the medieval beat 'em ups, Strider, Forgotten Worlds... yeah that's pretty sexy. (Still prefer Konami's catalog though)


Looks like they only acted as publishers for the Lufia games (except for the GBC one which they co-developed), so I wouldn't count them.

Oh and I'm keeping the "both 8 and 16 bit"parameter

[Ghegs]

Things happened that I'm suddenly quite well-prepared for old-school GB gaming. I got Game Boy Interface running on my Cube and I can even record video footage off the ultra-low latency version without any problems, and I randomly found a GBA SP AGS-101 (the model with the better screen) at a small, local retro gaming thing for an acceptable price. I still have my GBA SP that I bought very soon after it was released over here, and damn if the screen just doesn't make a huge difference.

So, what should I use 'em with? For GBA I already got all the MMZ titles, Gunstar Super Heroes and both Klonoas, for GB Ninja Ryukenden (beat it for the first time with GBI too), both Batman ROTJ and TAS, and Bionic Commando as well as its GBC sequel. Anything else I should be on the lookout for?

[soprano1]

I randomly found a GBA SP AGS-101 (the model with the better screen) at a small, local retro gaming thing for an acceptable price.

Haha, wish i would find one just like that.