NESRGB New Firmware Palette Updates:

[austin532]

I don't own a PVM but the direct capture looks closer to a CRT.

[FBX]

I don't own a PVM but the direct capture looks closer to a CRT.

Very strange. I've never seen a CRT that looks like those direct capture pics. The first stage of Contra pic for example, my PVM falls right in line with every CRT I've seen in looking more like the left image.

Anyway, I ran into a snag on the reverse process with arcadeVGA card (it crashed my computer). However, I discovered my current NVidia card allows for custom resolutions as low as I want. I tested it with a 480i manual resolution, and it worked like a champ. So what I need now is some sort of DVI-to-RGBs converter. If anyone knows of a good one, please let me know. I will be doing research on it.

[yxkalle]

Hey FBX, your beta looks great! Nicely done.

As you are using your eyes in the process of getting the colors right, it would be interesting to know how well you fare at a Farnsworth-Munsell 100 HueColor Vision Test. I scored 8 myself, not that it matters. Maybe you have proven the accuracy of your eyes before? If so, please ignore this post.

[FBX]

Hey FBX, your beta looks great! Nicely done.

As you are using your eyes in the process of getting the colors right, it would be interesting to know how well you fare at a Farnsworth-Munsell 100 HueColor Vision Test. I scored 8 myself, not that it matters. Maybe you have proven the accuracy of your eyes before? If so, please ignore this post.

Couldn't get that one to load properly even when turning adblock off, so I googled for one that did work:

http://www.colormunki.com/game/huetest_kiosk

I did the test once, scored perfect color acuity (zero).

[yxkalle]

I did the test once, scored perfect color acuity (zero).

Great!

[austin532]

I don't own a PVM but the direct capture looks closer to a CRT.

Very strange. I've never seen a CRT that looks like those direct capture pics. The first stage of Contra pic for example, my PVM falls right in line with every CRT I've seen in looking more like the left image.

The colors are still off but overall the temperature and colors are closer to the pics on the right. The PVM gives off a warmer temp which is odd because I thought games were designed with a cooler temp of 93K.

[FBX]

Update on the PC-to-PVM project:

My Nvidia GTX 960 card handles custom resolutions, including interlaced modes. It turns out I already have an RGBHV-to-RGBs combiner in the Toro Box, which came with a nifty adapter cable for using it with VGA plug sources. I've got coming in the mail on Monday a VGA-to-BNC breakout cable. So here's the rather Frankenstein theory:

1. Switch my PC resolution to custom 480p mode.

2. Use a DVI-to-VGA adapter plug on the GTX 960 DVI output port.

3. Send the VGA into the Toro BOX to convert RGBHV into RGBs.

4. Convert the VGA output plug on the Toro box to BNC using breakout cables.

5. Hook cables up to PVM (H-Sync cable will now be C-Sync thanks to the Toro Box).

This all 'should' work in theory unless somebody with knowledge on this can give me a heads up.

Edit: Confirmed the GTX 960 does support analog RGB via the DVI port, so this should work.

[copy]

I hate to be impatient... but is there an ETA for the Nostalgia firmware?

[FBX]

I hate to be impatient... but is there an ETA for the Nostalgia firmware?

I want to finish the current palette projects before I assemble the final list to become new firmware. My breakout cables will be arriving today, so give me one more week and we'll have everything settled by then.

[FBX]

Beta 3 is up. Lots of fine-tuning on the darker colors mostly.

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/PVM ... beta03.zip


Rygar looks frikken spot-on when I put it side-by-side with the PVM. Here's a 3x scale of beta03 on it:

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

That does look really tight. I fired up a few "test games" in Nestopia (Faxanadu, Metroid, Double Dragon II), and everything looks awesome. The olive swaths are perhaps a tad more biased towards green than what I'm seeing on my CRT (they're a little more golden for me), but other than that, this is shaping up to be a big improvement over your Unsaturated V5 that's currently flashed on my console- can't wait!

[FBX]

The olive swaths are perhaps a tad more biased towards green than what I'm seeing on my CRT (they're a little more golden for me),

I noticed the PVM picks up on the green weight far more than my CRT does (which also shows them as gold). Since the PVM tends to agree more with direct capture results, I'm going to stick with it for the time being.

BTW, I got my VGA breakout cables in and started testing the "Composite Direct" capture palette on the PVM. Using it as a base to work from I was able to cross-reference between it and real hardware composite on the same screen by pushing the A and B buttons on the PVM. Turns out I only need to make a few adjustments in hue, but mostly just increase the brightness on the 3rd and 4th tiers. Here's the comparison notes I took comparing the capture palette to live composite:

Code: Select all

00 = Slightly too dark, appears to have less green influence.
01 = Passes.
02 = Not enough purple weight, slightly too bright.
03 = Not enough purple weight.
04 = Passes.
05 = Passes.
06 = Needs a hair more green weight.
07 = Needs slightly more green weight.
08 = Needs a hair more red weight.
09 = Passes.
0A = Passes.
0B = Needs slightly more blue weight.
0C = Passes.


10 = Slightly too dark, appears to have less green influence.
11 = Passes.
12 = Passes.
13 = Needs slightly more purple weight.
14 = Passes.
15 = Needs slightly more green weight.
16 = Needs slightly more green weight.
17 = Needs slightly more green weight.
18 = Passes.
19 = Passes.
1A = Slightly too bright.
1B = Needs slightly more blue weight.
1C = Passes.


20 = Passes.
21 = Slightly too dark.
22 = Slightly too dark.
23 = Needs a hair more green-blue weight.
24 = Slightly too dark.
25 = Slightly too dark.
26 = Slightly too dark.
27 = Slightly too dark.
28 = Barely too dark.
29 = Slightly too dark.
2A = Slightly too dark.
2B = Slightly too dark.
2C = Barely too dark.
2D = Slightly too dark, appears to have less green influence.


30 = Passes.
31 = Slightly too dark.
32 = Slightly too dark.
33 = Slightly too dark.
34 = Slightly too dark.
35 = Slightly too dark.
36 = Slightly too dark.
37 = Slightly too dark.
38 = Slightly too dark.
39 = Slightly too dark.
3A = Slightly too dark.
3B = Slightly too dark.
3C = Slightly too dark.
3D = Slightly too dark, appears to have less green influence.

[tjstogy]

Awesome work FBX. Can't wait to see some comparison shots

[FBX]

Awesome work FBX. Can't wait to see some comparison shots

It's important to note the "Digital-to-PVM" palette (once completed) is meant only to be used on CRTs. So comparison shots will need to be photographs of a CRT screen once the palette is finished and implemented in a new firmware. However, the counterpart "PVM-to-Digital" palette is meant for digital display users, so those screenshots can be made from emulators.

Anyway, I'll be working on both all day today. Soon as I get them done, I'll send them off to Tim.

[pyroman512]

What is the turnaround time for Tim before he gives you a firmware file?

Really excited and love your work!

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

Interesting about the PVM picking up the green weight in the olive swaths whereas they aren't as heavily weighted on commercial CRTs.

Two quick questions; if the Digital to PVM palette reveals color balances previously unseen on most commercial CRTs, do you recommend its use on them? If not, would you consider releasing a Digital to CRT palette that has the more golden balance (and any other obvious differences) tweaked for CRT use?

I know that this is an enthusiasts forum, and that many (maybe even most) users here are using either an upscalers on a digital display, or a PVM/BVM, but I'd venture to say that a large amount of NESRGB users are hooking up to commercial CRTs via component or RGB SCART converter boxes (even S-Video), and that it would be of interest to folks out there like me.

[FBX]

Two quick questions; if the Digital to PVM palette reveals color balances previously unseen on most commercial CRTs, do you recommend its use on them? If not, would you consider releasing a Digital to CRT palette that has the more golden balance (and any other obvious differences) tweaked for CRT use?

The cool thing about the Digital-to-PVM palette is I'm only adjusting the color signals to mimic the same 'reaction' the PVM has to what it gets from NES composite. So in theory, the palette should look identical to the original NES hardware no matter what CRT you try and compare it on. For example, say you have a CRT that shows gold colors instead of olive. The palette will come out with the same gold colors on that particular CRT. That's the theory anyway.

[yxkalle]

It all comes down to how the TV converts the composite signal to RGB, all NTSC decoders are not the same.

[leonk]

So in theory, the palette should look identical to the original NES hardware no matter what CRT you try and compare it on. For example, say you have a CRT that shows gold colors instead of olive. The palette will come out with the same gold colors on that particular CRT. That's the theory anyway.

Interesting theory. So instead of getting the "correct" color (which is impossible with NTSC), you assume that if PVM show RGB and composite the same, then a consumer CRT should show S-Video and composite the same way (Even if the composite on this consumer CRT differs from composite on PVM)

I guess the difficulty lies with something like XRGB-mini. Would the output on XRGB look the same as PVM RGB. A lot of people don't have a switch on their NES, and prefer to have 1 "good enough" palette. So would be interested to find out what that is. Currently I give my customers unsaturated-v5 as that. It's much better than any stock palette already.

[thebigcheese]

A lot of people don't have a switch on their NES

That is the boat I am in. I have no interest in switching pallettes, so I hardwired mine to what was originally "natural," I believe. It was replaced by unsaturated v6 when I updated it, which was convenoent. I am hoping that the position of the final revision will remain the same so that I don't have to rewire anything.

[FBX]

A lot of people don't have a switch on their NES

That is the boat I am in. I have no interest in switching pallettes, so I hardwired mine to what was originally "natural," I believe. It was replaced by unsaturated v6 when I updated it, which was convenoent. I am hoping that the position of the final revision will remain the same so that I don't have to rewire anything.

I'll make sure to align everything to what people want in the default position. When the palettes are ready this weekend, I will post the proposed switch positions here and we can work out where best to put them.

Currently I give my customers unsaturated-v5 as that. It's much better than any stock palette already.

Unsaturated-V6 is better than V5. So if anything, you should at least upgrade to that. Here's the firmware link for the Unsat-V6 package:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/uns ... rmware.zip

Be warned Unsaturated-V6 might be in switch position 3 if I recall correctly, so you will need to have the palette switch option installed.

[FBX]

Five straight hours today spent on the new palette for CRT users, and it's done! The analog RGB feed from it into my PVM looks absolutely identical on every color entry to NES Composite feed. The most interesting discovery was once again the infamous SMB sky entry. As it turns out, even the PVM wanted green slightly favored more than red in order to match the NES composite feed. As it stands, the finished palette even looks pretty decent on LCD displays, though remember that it is meant for CRT users so they get the same experience compared to an unmodded NES.

Here's the .pal file:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/Ori ... 0(FBX).zip

So now I just need to wrap up my work on the PVM-to-Digital palette (meant for digital flat panel users), and we'll be set to send the zips off to Tim!



.

[tjstogy]

Amazing work! Can't wait to see it in action- do you have any comparison shots? Doesn't have to be direct capture of course...

Stupid question- for comparing it to composite, the composite was from an unmodded NES right?

Also- my vote for the 3 palettes would be the crt to crt, crt to lcd, and the direct capture.

[FBX]

Amazing work! Can't wait to see it in action- do you have any comparison shots? Doesn't have to be direct capture of course...

Stupid question- for comparing it to composite, the composite was from an unmodded NES right?

Correct. The "A" input on my PVM was fed composite video from the yellow RCA jack on a standard front-loader. The "B" input was fed analog RGBs 240p from Nestopia, with both the unmodded NES console and Nestopia running the same color test ROM. Each color entry fills the screen, and I would simply press the A and B buttons back and forth on the PVM to check between the two screens. I would adjust the Nestopia color entry until the monitor reacted exactly the same as it did to the front-loader's version of the same color. This was that little something extra needed to make the direct capture palette even more accurate to real hardware intensity levels.

As for comparison shots, it would have to be photographs of a CRT screen, due to the nature of the palette being intended for CRT usage only. So obviously we'll have to wait for when it's up on a new NESRGB firmware so people can do their own tests with it and an unmodded front-loader. I will say that I firmly believe the theory of this method was sound, because it actually only deviated very slightly from direct capture work. The major difference was in intensity of the brighter colors as I mentioned. Most of the hues however, were very close, and I only had to make some very slight adjustments to a handful of color entries in that regard.

[Yamato]

Sounds really great, thank you for your hard work, FBX!

Is it possible to show the differences between this new palette for CRT users and the stock "Natural" palette (maybe by a basic grid)? Of course, the colors are meant to be viewed on a CRT but I would really like to see how the new palette is different from the stock palette.

[FBX]

Is it possible to show the differences between this new palette for CRT users and the stock "Natural" palette (maybe by a basic grid)? Of course, the colors are meant to be viewed on a CRT but I would really like to see how the new palette is different from the stock palette.

I'm a bit apprehensive of doing this in that I don't want people to draw the wrong conclusions. The Stock YUV palette was made for digital displays and was mathematically constructed, whereas the Original Hardware palette was physically measured and is meant for CRTs. It's a lot like comparing apples to oranges in that regard. Nevertheless, here's the grid comparison with stock YUV on the left in each swatch and Original Hardware on the right:

[tjstogy]

I think anyone who follows the thread will know what you've created! But- I suggest we all come up with better names. Everyone is calling each palette something different.

[copy]

On a related note, I think it would be good to bring back the screenshot comparisons (Natural vs. Nostalgia) on the NES Composite Palette Project page. The way the page is now doesn't do the project justice. For example, these users on Reddit didn't understand what it was, and thought the olive colors were the only difference:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nes/comments/5 ... y/dcl11sv/

[FBX]

On a related note, I think it would be good to bring back the screenshot comparisons (Natural vs. Nostalgia) on the NES Composite Palette Project page. The way the page is now doesn't do the project justice. For example, these users on Reddit didn't understand what it was, and thought the olive colors were the only difference:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nes/comments/5 ... y/dcl11sv/

I'm not much of a fan of reddit's thread style, but I'll work on the project page tonight and detail each palette project and the point of them.

Edit: Spent a couple hours doing a new write-up on the project page. It's been uploaded, but you may need to hit the refresh button on your browser if it still shows old content.

[copy]

I'm not much of a fan of reddit's thread style, but I'll work on the project page tonight and detail each palette project and the point of them.

Edit: Spent a couple hours doing a new write-up on the project page. It's been uploaded, but you may need to hit the refresh button on your browser if it still shows old content.

Whoa, above and beyond, FBX! Nicely done.