Why shmups are such a niche genre

[ZOM]

Holy cow, what is this shit?

[shmupsorrow77]

If that's the case, it was never the actual gameplay that attracted you in the first place, it was the atmosphere and immersion. That's fine, but why not play games from other genres that are better suited for that sort of thing instead of complaining about how shmups haven't catered to your tastes over time?

Except this isn't the case, the problem as that the gameplay was the problem with shooters in the first place because the game design itself was the result of hardware limitations, I'm saying that shooters (originally) were flawed designs from the outset because they didn't have the hardware power in those days to do more complicated gameplay (like Descent and Freespace 2). Japanese game developers probably could have done some interesting things with shooters if they played games like Freespace 1+2 or Descent 2 and remixed genre's into something that could rekindle interest in shooters in general.

Japanese developers have always had issues with innovation or remixing elements from other games. I think games like Ace combat 5/6 and HAWX are where most former shooter fans are today. I really enjoyed ace combat 5 a lot.

[BIL]

Are most former shooter fans recovering from serious cranial injuries, as well? It would explain a lot, actually!

[AraraSPAMWitch]

Except this isn't the case, the problem as that the gameplay was the problem with shooters in the first place because the game design itself was the result of hardware limitations, I'm saying that shooters (originally) were flawed designs from the outset because they didn't have the hardware power in those days to do more complicated gameplay (like Descent and Freespace 2).

You do know that there are always hardware limitations, right? And that games will always have to be crafted around the limitations of that hardware?

Anyway, you have herpes, and Descent has nothing to do with the 2D shooting genre, it's a great game but has far more relation to FPS like Doom or Quake than any Gradius or what-have-you. Ace Combat as well -- a cool game, but plays nothing like a shoot-em-up.

[shmupsorrow77]

Are most former shooter fans recovering from serious cranial injuries, as well? It would explain a lot, actually!

No the problem with shmups today is they are not entertaining enough for people to pay for them. The community needs to stop insulting those who got bored with flawed designs and moved on to other games. You guys would like to see the genre reinvigorated or appreciated by a sizable enough audience to get more higher quality games would you not?

Because from what I can tell at this forum the haters are so content with shooters as they are they mind as well just stop discussing why the genre is so niche, either you want more people having fun or you don't, which is it?

[Obiwanshinobi]

A game like Starfox 64 was is in my opinion where they should have pushed shmups to, if I were Konami I would have hired the starfox 64 team to see if I could reboot gradius in 3D.

That's Zoradius for ya.

[shmupsorrow77]

Except this isn't the case, the problem as that the gameplay was the problem with shooters in the first place because the game design itself was the result of hardware limitations, I'm saying that shooters (originally) were flawed designs from the outset because they didn't have the hardware power in those days to do more complicated gameplay (like Descent and Freespace 2).

You do know that there are always hardware limitations, right? And that games will always have to be crafted around the limitations of that hardware?

Anyway, you have herpes, and Descent has nothing to do with the 2D shooting genre, it's a great game but has far more relation to FPS like Doom or Quake than any Gradius or what-have-you. Ace Combat as well -- a cool game, but plays nothing like a shoot-em-up.

And this is exactly the problem with shooter fans here - they have no clue about game design, they are merely fans who have no flexibility beyond their expectation of what is a "shooter".

Descent is a 3D shooter in the third dimension, saying "descent" is NOT a shooter is about the most moronic thing you could ever say shooting tonnes of robot enemeis in mines in the third dimension is not a shooter???? it's about as close as you can get to a shooter in 3D, it wasn't the best by far but it was one of the few shooters that was fully 3D for the time and we also have to take into account hardware that was available at release for these games.

[Ravid]

Why don't you explain why you don't like 2D shooters? Or was this:

as a gamer I want to experience flying planes/spaceships in 3D with better graphics

supposed to cover it?

[Kollision]

WTF is Descent?
I thought it was that horror flick with all those hotties fighting aliens in a cave.

[AraraSPAMWitch]

Descent is a 3D shooter in the third dimension, saying "descent" is NOT a shooter is about the most moronic thing you could ever say shooting tonnes of robot enemeis in mines in the third dimension is not a shooter???? it's about as close as you can get to a shooter in 3D, it wasn't the best by far but it was one of the few shooters that was fully 3D for the time and we also have to take into account hardware that was available at release for these games.

Bullets do not a shmup make -- this genre is a specific type of game with forced scrolling on a 2D plane and Descent has neither. You might say that this type of design is limiting, and it is, but no more so than Descent's. Such design allows developers to create intricate scoring systems (something FPS like Descent and most 3D games in general lack) and forces players to create strategies entirely different from what you'd see in Descent, Ace Combat, or Starfox. Additionally, you fail to take into account the arcade origins of the genre, which make individual play-throughs relatively short and scoring important.

But you're not gonna like or understand these games, neither will my mom or the rest of the world, and I think most of us are okay with that as long as they have something fun to play.

[Pirate1019]

I don't like eating pickles. Therefore, pickles are broken, and anybody who likes eating pickles is also broken.

[BIL]

No the problem with shmups today is they are not entertaining enough for people to pay for them. The community needs to stop insulting those who got bored with flawed designs and moved on to other games.

If you take what can be summed up as "most people don't want short, hard, old-fashioned games requiring careful practice" as an insult, well, you shouldn't. That's normal. Doesn't make it any less true.

You guys would like to see the genre reinvigorated or appreciated by a sizable enough audience to get more higher quality games would you not?

I don't. I'd rather they remain fringe and undiluted for mainstream appeal. Read the thread, it's a common sentiment here. And something tells me your definition of a "quality" shooter wouldn't be up to my standards. It'd probably be something with all the scoring depth of Descent.

Because from what I can tell at this forum the haters are so content with shooters as they are they mind as well just stop discussing why the genre is so niche, either you want more people having fun or you don't, which is it?

The "discussion" was done some pages back. Shooters are niche because they're old-fashioned and demanding. Mainstream appeal ("more people having fun") would probably require watering down the very things we enjoy about them. Novice modes are a good compromise. Ultimately, who gives a shit, let's enjoy shooters. End of story.

[shmupsorrow77]

Descent is a 3D shooter in the third dimension, saying "descent" is NOT a shooter is about the most moronic thing you could ever say shooting tonnes of robot enemeis in mines in the third dimension is not a shooter???? it's about as close as you can get to a shooter in 3D, it wasn't the best by far but it was one of the few shooters that was fully 3D for the time and we also have to take into account hardware that was available at release for these games.

Bullets do not a shmup make -- this genre is a specific type of game with forced scrolling on a 2D plane and Descent has neither. You might say that this type of design is limiting, and it is, but no more so than Descent's. Such design allows developers to create intricate scoring systems (something FPS like Descent and most 3D games in general lack) and forces players to create strategies entirely different from what you'd see in Descent, Ace Combat, or Starfox. Additionally, you fail to take into account the arcade origins of the genre, which make individual play-throughs relatively short and scoring important.

But you're not gonna like or understand these games, neither will my mom or the rest of the world, and I think most of us are okay with that as long as they have something fun to play.

Minor mechanics do not define a genre and genre's, if this were true starfox assault's Arwing levels do not qualify as shooters neither is starfox 64 either. Since it moved to 3D and you have some degree of 3D movement.

[shmupsorrow77]

But you're not gonna like or understand these games, neither will my mom or the rest of the world, and I think most of us are okay with that as long as they have something fun to play.

This is the most moronic thing a person like you can say to a person like me who who played the fuck out of early shmups in the arcades. If I didn't find shmups enjoyable then why did I play them and why did I eventually lose interest? I can't believe how hostile people on this forum are to people who are _not like them_. I feel like I'm a black man amongst racists.

[Ravid]

An unbelievably obnoxious black man who presents his facile opinions as fact.

[Mortificator]

Chess is an abstract game for autistics, move on to Battle for Middle-Earth II.

[Obiwanshinobi]

For many people their memories of having fun with games in the past are the best things about these games today. Such people indeed would be better off not touching said games anymore and cherishing their memories.
There are also people who keep playing, "rediscovering" etc. the old games, because:
- either these games do things differently from the majority of games today (variety is a spice of life, thus there will always be demand for quirky, eccentirc games),
- or some people enjoy some old games more then the majority of today's games, because they don't feel like faffing about with the "cinematic" values of a game; rather they want an instant, real challenge and instant reward (be it a feeling of improving their skills in given game, if anything else).

[shmupsorrow77]

An unbelievably obnoxious black man who presents his facile opinions as fact.

Games sell on players opinions of them, therefore when a game becomes niche it is because of the facts.

[shmupsorrow77]

For many people their memories of having fun with games in the past are the best things about these games today. Such people indeed would be better off not touching said games anymore and cherishing their memories.

You mind as well just say "we will remain niche forever", the whole problem with genre was that the fun was lost somewhere along the way and that's why they do not sell well outside of japan. This is why the shmup community is in such denial. I thought they want to bring fun to the genre again and joy to more players. The only way to understand this is to talk with people that formerly enjoyed the genre. The solution is not going to come from the insular shmup community, it's going to come from someone who doesn't hate gamers on the whole.

The community seems to think what they think is fun is the only thing that counts, rather then trying to bridge the gap. But the lack of money is proof that the insular community is the problem to begin with.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Since when niche can't be fun? If for your money shmups don't provide fun these days, you can't expect people who still genuinely enjoy them to share your idea of the genre improvement. No game does everything right for everobody's money. If you want more stuff like Freelancer (Diablo meets GTA in space), that's alright, but as much as I enjoyed it (thanks to the immersion factor too), it doesn't do what I want from a 2D shooting game.

[Ravid]

An unbelievably obnoxious black man who presents his facile opinions as fact.

Games sell on players opinions of them, therefore when a game becomes niche it is because of the facts.

But your claim appears not to be so much that shmups don't sell well (the facts), but rather that they are not fun (your opinion, and indeed the opinion of many others). You have not attempted to explain why you do not find them fun; instead you simply assert that they are rendered obsolete by newer games.

[SFKhoa]

hey guys i don't like the 3rd dimension, does that make me autistic?

[szycag]

the whole problem with genre was that the fun was lost somewhere along the way and that's why they do not sell well outside of japan.

They're not fun, and that's why only straight faced uptight japanese businessman are still buying them. And autistic cripples.

[charlie chong]

YO MANG 3D IS SO OLD SKOOL YOO SHOULD TRY VIRTUAL RAELITY ITS A REAL "IMMERSIVE EGGSPERIENCE"

B/W

[t0yrobo]

But you're not gonna like or understand these games, neither will my mom or the rest of the world, and I think most of us are okay with that as long as they have something fun to play.

This is the most moronic thing a person like you can say to a person like me who who played the fuck out of early shmups in the arcades. If I didn't find shmups enjoyable then why did I play them and why did I eventually lose interest? I can't believe how hostile people on this forum are to people who are _not like them_. I feel like I'm a black man amongst racists.

Well that's kinda bound to happen when you come to a forum dedicated to games you're no longer interested in, and try to say everyone here is wrong because we still enjoy them. Some people might call that "trolling".
Now that you've pulled the racist card, you need to gay bash and mention Hitler for the trifecta. Some pseudo psychological bs would work as well.

[honorless]

If I didn't find shmups enjoyable then why did I play them and why did I eventually lose interest?

Your tastes changed over the years.
- OR -
You have always preferred flight sims and rail shooters to shmups. Those were the genres you wished you could be playing instead of shmups...but you didn't know they existed. Or perhaps they didn't exist yet.

And dude, it's okay that you enjoy flight sims and rail shooters more than scrolling shooters. But your idea that shmups should be obsoleted by flight sims/rail shooters because "3D games and first-person perspective are so much cooler and anyone who doesn't like that more than boring old 2D in third-person is brain damaged" is ludicrously moronic. To put it nicely.

[EPS21]

If games like starfox and descent are so great, why aren't there hundreds, if not thousands of doujin/indie and derivative games based off them?

If anything I'd say your tastes are even more niche than shmups are, 3D air/space flying are pretty few and far between these days.
And if you find those more fun than shmups that's fine. However you tell us with (bullshit) reasons why shmups cannot possibly be fun anymore and anyone who still likes them today has brain damage, well now you just went full retard on us, son.

Well I do hope you're trolling, because then you're either a: a regular forum member who does enjoy shmups and just made another account for inciting some shit in a thread for kicks, or b: casually found this forum and presenting your opinions as fact like a true moron. I do hope its the former, because successful troll is successful.

[charlie chong]

AUTISM IS BEAUTIFUL
THIS THRAED IS RACISHT

[Obiwanshinobi]

Or you could go to some space combat sims forum and tell people on there that their beloved genre went niche because it became too anal (to the point of utilizing every single key on a keyboard and demanding an expensive, analogue joystick and hours of learning and practice, no less, to be any fun at all) for its own good, and that space combat theme (which has been neglected in recent years indeed) needs more masses friendly fun blasters, because nobody in their right mind wants "realistic" physics and whatnot in this kind of game.
Personally I wouldn't say no to another, more polished and varied Freelancer, and I'd like another Zone of the Enders, and I could use more games like Sky Odyssey, but it doesen't mean shmups or flying sims must become these games, or move on in this direction. I don't think you'll find allies on such forums by disdaining the games these forums are dedicated to.

[NR777]

Seriously, dude. Just shut the fuck up and go play something you like instead of wading in here and spraying the boards with verbal diarrhea. Your whole argument has basically boiled down to this "I don't like it, therefore it sucks. It sucks, therefore I am right. I am right, therefore everyone else is a retard for disagreeing with me." With that sort of brilliant logic I am sure you will have a lucrative career washing dishes at Red Lobster.