DUX for Dreamcast

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:32 am

Dave_K. wrote:
Udderdude wrote: Besides, XOP and XOP Black are both available right now, for the PC, for free. Anyone with a PC made in the last 10 years can run it.
Except if you have a Mac/OSX. Now a DC I do have.

Go bug Louis about it

lol

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:10 pm

No_not_like_Quake wrote:I think what Udderdude is implying is that if you released this on PC, you'd be introducing your product to a much larger population and potentially increase your profits by quite a bit, without resorting to LE stuff to make some money off it.

That's just a sloppy assumption, you know. I mean yes, almost everybody on the whole planet has a personal computer but why are there any video games console at all if they don't have any advantages? So getting the game on personal computer would most possibly result in a lack of interest, not because the game is not good enough, just because most people want to play their games on consoles. That's just the way it is.

As I said, if someone who moans about theDUX LE got a better way to mimimize risk, staying independent w/o an LE you can show suggest me your ideas and proof them with facts etc. So my issue with people here complaining about the LE is, they don't offer any solutions. Personally I consider a video game console as a solution to all personal computer issues when it comes to games. So making a game for personal computer is a step back to making games vor video game consoles.

And didn't Udderdude failed to sell XOP on personal computer?

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:35 pm

RHE wrote:And didn't Udderdude failed to sell XOP on personal computer?

That's true, but things look quite a bit different now than they did back in 2001. There is a lot more support for independant developers.

Today developing for the Dreamcast is just as cheap as developing for PC, all development tools are free, and Sega doesn't really care what you do. Back when XOP was released, you still had to pay Sega $$$ and get your game approved to have it published.

Also it's a pretty low blow to say "lol you failed" .. especially seeing as so many people were extremely critical of your own game, even though it sold. Just so you know, the budget for the original XOP was close to $0 anyway, so it wasn't exactly a huge loss that it didn't sell well.

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:01 pm

and people understand XOP

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:47 pm

RHE wrote:Personally I consider a video game console as a solution to all personal computer issues when it comes to games. So making a game for personal computer is a step back to making games vor video game consoles.

I couldn't agree more. I can't take shmups or videogames in general even remotely serious if they are on PC. There are some really great Doujin shmups I would love to enjoy on a console. XOP black for example would be at least twice as good, if it were on Dreamcast and I probably wouldn't have touched Last Hope at all, if it would've been on PC.

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:58 pm

jonny5 wrote:and people understand XOP

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:14 pm

Udderdude wrote:Today developing for the Dreamcast is just as cheap as developing for PC, all development tools are free, and Sega doesn't really care what you do. Back when XOP was released, you still had to pay Sega $$$ and get your game approved to have it published.

So the only reason why you did XOP for personal computer was because you couldn't effort the license? So you would like to make games for Dreamcast as well? And didn't you say you'd like to get one of your games on WiiWare but you can't for some reasons?

Also it's a pretty low blow to say "lol you failed"

To low bow is what you're doing all the time, see: 'Whatever, you've proven yourself to be completely unreasonable on more than one occasion, so I'm probabally wasting my time here.'

How can you disrecpect a person more then by saying that?

.. especially seeing as so many people were extremely critical of your own game, even though it sold.

Meta critics of game have nothing to do with this. Especially not since it's the nature of this board to bash everything that's not a danmaku, even more when the game is made by western devs, even more when the game is as punishing as Last Hope. In fact, most players are over-critical with the game for whatever reasons. The main complaint is bad visibility but games like Ibara feature even more bad visibility. But its made by Cave so people are forgivable.

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:19 am

RHE wrote: Meta critics of game have nothing to do with this. Especially not since it's the nature of this board to bash everything that's not a danmaku, even more when the game is made by western devs, even more when the game is as punishing as Last Hope.

Nonsense. This is just lame apologia. People were critical of LH because its rubbish.

And the "bad visibility" etc. of Ibara is an aspect of the bad PS2 port, which people are critical of all the time.

ChurchOfSolipsism · Post by **ChurchOfSolipsism** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:37 pm

The level of butthurt is steadily increasing....

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:23 pm

Nonsense. This is just lame apologia. People were critical of LH because its rubbish.

You can say whatever you want about Last Hope, it does hits its target goup. All poeple whoe say the game is just crap/rubbish are not within this target group.

Also, where are your arguments? Saying a game is just rubbish, is just a lame excuse for having a bash. Just look at the videos and tell me what's so bad about the game. I mean if the game ist just rubbish, then this should be visible in the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REg0orL440k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEhZyZRo_BQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_PJN6Aw ... re=related

Speaking about nonsense:'How can anyone splash out for the LE now and not feel robbed? What a joke

Why should someone feell less robbed by getting the Border Down LE for double the price of the DUX LE? It's not that someone is forced to buy it. Its also very visible what content the LE features, so if someone feels robbed by purchasing it, then this person must be confused.

And as I said, the DUX LE costs as much as a regular offical DC release. So in this terms, you're getting the game and a bonus OST for the same price you can get Under Deaft w/o OST.

So why should somone feel robbed at all?

And the "bad visibility" etc. of Ibara is an aspect of the bad PS2 port, which people are critical of all the time.'

No its not just the PS2 version, I've seen and tried to play the arcade game and the visibility its as bad as possible. I've never seen a game with more bad visibility then Ibara on PCB. Maybe the PS2 version is even more bad. Ant not all people are critizing the game for its visibitly all the time, some people say they don't have much visibility issues which Ibara on PS2, just the same that many people don't have issues with Last Hope. Visibility is just about getting used to it.

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:50 pm

RHE wrote:
And the "bad visibility" etc. of Ibara is an aspect of the bad PS2 port, which people are critical of all the time.'

No its not just the PS2 version, I've seen and tried to play the arcade game and the visibility its as bad as possible. I've never seen a game with more bad visibility then Ibara on PCB. Maybe the PS2 version is even more bad. Ant not all people are critizing the game for its visibitly all the time, some people say they don't have much visibility issues which Ibara on PS2, just the same that many people don't have issues with Last Hope. Visibility is just about getting used to it.

not true...there are a couple of points where its kinda hard to see in the PCB....it is certainly not as bad as you claim.....and there are definietly worse out there....

and honestly, you should not mention yourself or your games in comparison to anything cave has done....it doesnt help your cause

it is quite comical the way you overly exaggerate faults in other games but when it comes to the glaring short comings of your own games it comes down to the player not getting it, or not being the target market....

most people think shit smells bad, but i guess there are a few people out there who enjoy it....

much like your games

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:09 pm

How about we stop this right now since its the time for peace and reflection

Some people liked Last Hope some didn't let's leave it at that.

I do not understand what the LE has done to make some of you upset.

I'm interested in the game itself maybe a new trailer RHE ?

As for delays I quite like the slogan: "you will get it when it's done"

rtw

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:13 pm

RHE wrote:I mean if the game ist just rubbish, then this should be visible in the videos.

I withhold judgement about the game, as I haven't played it (nor do I ever plan to do that), so I wouldn't go as far as calling it rubbish (how would I know anyway), but even in the two and a half levels shown in the videos I can spot a couple of bad design decisions.

- In the DC version it's practically impossible to tell apart the sparks coming from the enemies' explosions and the bullets. The NGCD version improves on this issue by making the bullets pink, but even there the bullets are glowing, and when they are at their darkest level, they get lost in the background.
- In both versions, the grey stuff thrown by the enemies hiding in the sand (first stage) looks like the grey debris from the enemies' explosions, is far too dark, and gets lost in the background.
- Second video, at 1:20. Enemies appear out of thin air and start firing at the player rightaway. Assuming this is the first appearance of those enemies, this is bound to be a frustrating moment for most players.
Various Gradius games (in which 'materializers' appear quite frequently) show how to introduce enemies like those in a way that doesn't frustrate the player: They usually first appear in small groups of 3-5 in places where they aren't able to hurt the player, then, when the player has already learned how this type of enemies "works", they appear all around him.
It's kinda like the columns with very small platforms on top of them in Super Mario Bros.: They first appear with safe ground all around, so you can learn to safely land on them without risking a life. Later in the game, it's essential to hit them precisely, but then you already know what to do.

I wouldn't say these are issues a player who really loves the game can't overcome and get used to, but that doesn't make them good design decisions miraculously. The game may be enjoyable despite these flaws, but it's easy to see why a lot of people have problems with it. (If the levels shown in the videos you posted are representative, that is.)

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:18 pm

jonny5

This is what I'm talking about. All this stuff is subjective. I experience Ibara PCB as a almost unplayable game with huge visibility issues while I can play Last Hope w/o any issues - with other people its the same or quite the opposite. Which proves that this stuff is just subjective.

Comparison:

Ibara

Last Hope

With Last Hope you do even have a pod for defense. So confusing a bullet with a shrapnel or the other way around is pretty forgivable. While Last Hope doesn't feature high visibility, I still don't get why some poeple have issues with hat.

rtw

You're right again, let's leave it like this. I'm not sure about a new trailer though, as the one trailer already shows a lot of the game. On segagagadomain there's a exclusive stage 1 video, which shows what's going on at this stage. The shown video content is pretty much final, unlike it's description though.

Herr Schatten

I agree with most of your video observations - It's a valid and constructive way to add criticsm. It' actually the first time that someone bothers to make Last Hope criticism very understandable for me. So none of the stuff that your'e criticizing is going to be appear in DUX. However, from the videos of DUX if there are any flaws to see I'd like to hear them.

The only thing I don't understand is: 'I haven't played it (nor do I ever plan to do that)'

Even if you don't like the genre, there's still a chance to like this game.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:32 pm

RHE wrote:On segagagadomain there's a exclusive stage 1 video, which shows what's going on at this stage. The shown video content is pretty much final, unlike it's description though.

At least DUX looks unique, you've got to hand it that. I hope there is still time to make slight alterations: You really should make those white backgrounds slightly darker. They are too bright, which can be confusing.

PS.
We told you so 8 months ago:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 435#351435

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:35 pm

so you find it hard to see stuff in ibara when you have just blown everything up?

right......

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:44 pm

Notice how some of the boxes are almost the same shade of grey as the background? That ain't good.

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:53 pm

Ceph

I told you and everybody else a few month ago, an option to make the backgrounds darker is going to be implementet.

From my 3rd posting on this thread: 'Perhaps I will include an background brightness option so everyone can adjust this by themselves depending on the preference. This seem to be necessarily, especially as I prefer to have it bright.'

And yes I noticed how background hand foreground have a similir tones, but they also have additional colors for making it easier to distinguish. However, I seem to be entirley ineffective for having background/foreground blending issues.

jonny5

Yes, I obviously find it hard too see stuff in Ibara when blowing stuff up. And you're blowing stuff ab in Ibara all the time, even more then with Last Hope. If this is not what we're talking about, then I have no idea how bullets/shrapnel/explosion issues can happen.

However, even when not blowing stuff up in Ibara visibility could be better: Almost completly blue projectiles on blue background.

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:21 pm

RHE's definitely right that most of Raizing's games have harder to see bullets than Last Hope. But then again you only have to play them for more than 30 minutes and you won't ever have any trouble again.
This applies for Battle Garegga, Ibara, Last Hope and all the others.

The stage 1 video looks absolutely brilliant! I'm going to enjoy this game a lot, I think! There's hardly any criticism to make.

EDIT:
track listing for the OST:

13 Bloomin' Cave - Zzr
14 Kickin' Cave - Space One
15 Warrior Dance Mix - CZ-Tunes
16 Dynamite Disco Dux - CJoe
17 Score the Darkness - Awesome-A
18 Chillin' Goose
19 Sidastic!
20 Ride the Mix - Nate/VST
21 You Just Don't Understand

LOL?!!!

I have to order the OST now!!!

nem · Post by **nem** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:43 pm

RHE wrote:However, I seem to be entirley ineffective for having background/foreground blending issues.

But then you are the developer. I'm sure I could make a pitch black platformer that I had no problems finishing (because I would know the level layout inside out).

Limbrooke · Post by **Limbrooke** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:45 pm

jonny5 wrote:not true...there are a couple of points where its kinda hard to see in the PCB....it is certainly not as bad as you claim.....and there are definietly worse out there....

and honestly, you should not mention yourself or your games in comparison to anything cave has done....it doesnt help your cause

it is quite comical the way you overly exaggerate faults in other games but when it comes to the glaring short comings of your own games it comes down to the player not getting it, or not being the target market....

most people think shit smells bad, but i guess there are a few people out there who enjoy it....

much like your games

Up until the italicized statements you might have actually made a point, however to me it comes across as pretty damned rude and I have no compassion for Last Hope at all.

Ibara and Last Hope share many similarites yet are vastly different games. Main points of relation: both have a very high difficulty (PS2 especially as visuals are not the main concern, it's the lack of slowdown present in the port which causes the most problems) and at times due to the nature of the games visibility can be challenging. Of course with lots of practice and familiarity both games can be more manageable.

For me Ibara and most Raizing fare (as pardon the hardware and development company, Ibara is more Raizing than Cave any day) are more enjoyable thanks to versatile scoring system and good tunes. Last Hope is extremely punishing and for me requires a lot, a lot of memorization and patience while offering little reward other than progress. I'm certainly no fan of checkpoints either.

I don't know where you pull the point of comparing NG.DevTeams work to Cave either cause I cannot find it. I only see criticism of a poorly received Cave game on points that have been addressed countless times before. Of course comparison to Cave (or more directly Yagawa) is not fair as he's been programming/designing retail arcade games for 20 years if not more while Last Hope itself was a 7 year endeavour (am I right?) as a homebrew project. I suspect previous work being done before by the group of NG.DevTeam but definitely not on the same scale. Then again it's not the be all end all either as evolution or advancement is present in DUX to a degree and perhaps future works will look to incorperate further improvements to playability/enjoyment.

Then again there are people who do enjoy Last Hope and perhaps more who will like DUX. I can hope for any interested parties that for NG.Dev there is improvement and feedback towards any future work as otherwise it gets stagnant.

As for the whole bullcrap about the LE business I really don't understand this at all. It's nice to know there are people out there willing to design games for Dreamcast period. This is speaking for myself as someone who is not poised to buy DUX. Given the whole idea of making a game retail for hard and long work why the hell not. If I spent many years or years in general working on something that can be used by a certain market why on earth would I not want something beyond press and gratitude from those who would try it? The answer is $$.

nem · Post by **nem** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:13 pm

RE: LE bullcrap

Call me old fashioned, but how about selling the game on its own merits, not on exclusivity.

If the game is good, people will buy it.

Limbrooke · Post by **Limbrooke** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:24 pm

nem wrote:RE: LE bullcrap

Call me old fashioned, but how about selling the game on its own merits, not on exclusivity.

If the game is good, people will buy it.

I believe RHE stated he'd want to have it as a simple Special Edition (which would elminate the exclusive nature) but somehow it's not an option. I could see if it was only availible as an LE how this would be a problem but it's not. In fact there are many options out there in terms of what you can buy. I also don't recall anyone complaining when THE or UD got the LE treatment in addition to a normal release.

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:34 pm

Limbrooke wrote:
jonny5 wrote:
most people think shit smells bad, but i guess there are a few people out there who enjoy it....

much like your games
Up until the italicized statements you might have actually made a point, however to me it comes across as pretty damned rude and I have no compassion for Last Hope at all.

i was illustrating a point.....i may have worded it harshly but oh well.....it is still very true.....

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:00 pm

But then you are the developer. I'm sure I could make a pitch black platformer that I had no problems finishing (because I would know the level layout inside out).

To feature high-visibility of its own is very easy, yet the challenge is to make good looking backgrounds and featuing high-visibility to the same time.

I believe RHE stated he'd want to have it as a simple Special Edition (which would elminate the exclusive nature) but somehow it's not an option.

Indeed. A special edition elimates exclusivity but an limited edtions elimates risk. And such a risk is in the video game development a very important factor to consider. In fact, I didn't want to do another edition next to the regular at all but it is necessary.

Now some people talk like, to make LEs is like ripping-off people.

Call me old fashioned, but how about selling the game on its own merits, not on exclusivity.

No one disagrees with this, but you have consider an another important factor here, besides the usal idea of limited editions. When someone buys the DUX LE, that person activly and heavily supports further HUCAST.net games. To buy the regular of course does also support, but many poeple like to show more support then this, so a limited edition is the way to go. I can also call it premium supporters edition but nobody has a clue what that is. To limit this edition makes sense, because if 500 poeple buy the LE everything is fine.

And as I said, if someone has a better solution I gladly take the idea.

If the game is good, people will buy it.

It's not just about buying one game, it's about supporting all further HUCAST.net games.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:10 pm

If you realize the backgrounds are to bright, then why not make them darker by default?

RHE wrote: It's not just about buying one game, it's about supporting all further HUCAST.net games.

I don't buy any games for the sake of supporting a specific developer. I try to buy only good games, and I buy them for my personal enjoyment. I am not a charity.

PS.
I did fall for the limited-scheme once and preordered Last Hope LE several months before it was released, effectively loaning you money. Sorry, but I don't feel like doing so again. This time I'll try before I buy. If your game is good, you'll get my money; if it doesn't satisfy me, I won't buy it.

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:37 pm

Can you provide us with a firm release date yet?

Just expect the game early next year.

...while Last Hope itself was a 7 year endeavour (am I right?)

Actually, Last Hope development time is 3 years, and additional 3 years for manufacturing and publishing the game on cartridge which makes overall of 6 years.

If you realize the backgrounds are to bright, then why not make them darker by default?

As I said, I don't mind bright backgrounds as I don't have issues with that. I don't like dark background unless there's a very good reason for it.

I don't buy any games for the sake of supporting a specific developer. I try to buy only good games, and I buy them for my personal enjoyment. I am not a charity.

So do people who buy the LE, they're are buying for their personal enjoyment. It's not charity at all. Nevertheless, how can you buy a game for your personal enjoyment, if it doesn't exist, beacause you didn't buy the previous game of an developer? You don't have to see as charity, you have to see it as an investment.

I support every dev that shows potential even if I'm not in favor with a specific game. Because maybe that dev is doing the greatest shmup of all times at a point, and if I wouldn't support the dev I could never know. especially since games are rather affordable.

I did fall for the limited-scheme once and preordered Last Hope LE several months before it was released, effectively loaning you money. Sorry, but I don't feel like doing so again. This time I'll try before I buy. If your game is good, you'll get my money; if it doesn't satisfy me, I won't buy it.

No Last Hope LE, no DUX at all.

So good on you purchasing the Last Hope LE. Everybody who wants to play DUX can give Ceph a hug already.

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:05 am

RHE wrote:The only thing I don't understand is: 'I haven't played it (nor do I ever plan to do that)'

Even if you don't like the genre, there's still a chance to like this game.

I actually love the (sub-)genre. R-type and Z-Out are near the top of my top 25 list each year. Unfortunately, I don't have a NGCD, and that's the version I'd want to play, sorry.

However, DUX looks very promising and I'm curious how it will turn out.

Add another +1 to the crowd suggesting to make the contrast between background and foreground bigger by default, though. I understand that it feels like you're sacrificing part of the art style, but playability should always come first, looks second. (Something even Yagawa seems to have learned after all these years, as Muchi Muchi Pork suggests.)

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:23 pm

RHE wrote: If the game is good, people will buy it.

It's not just about buying one game, it's about supporting all further HUCAST.net games.

I hope I had read that post wrong. I really do.

RHE wrote:But then you are the developer. I'm sure I could make a pitch black platformer that I had no problems finishing (because I would know the level layout inside out).

To feature high-visibility of its own is very easy, yet the challenge is to make good looking backgrounds and featuing high-visibility to the same time.

Hmm.. Batman Forever for SNES... yummy.

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:34 pm

RHE wrote: It's not just about buying one game, it's about supporting all further HUCAST.net games.

What an arrogant sense of entitlement you have. Sorry, we owe you nothing.