OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

[Fudoh]

I would second that. I suspect that you would be more happy with a Framemeister instead.

[neorichieb1971]

But if this was my product, I'd definitely have a top 3 compatibility for size/tv/monitor etc.

How? It changes on a yearly basis (if not more often) and differs by region. How much resources do you think marqs has to test all that? Not only for OSSC compatibility, but also what are the "best" displays, something even professional display reviewers are struggling with?

I'm sure it's not a problem to give you the name of a 27" display that works, but if you want the best, you are asking for too much. Especially if you're asking now for what you're supposed to buy in 12 months. The best probably has changed by then and anything we recommend, besides no longer being the best, might have gone out of production.

Perhaps asking for the best is a bit too much. Something was lost in interpretation there because i'm only looking for something that works with all modes. What I meant by "best" is "no compatibility issues". And to some regard something about which panel is the better option.

I'm not asking Marqs to do anything. All modes have been tested on a range of monitors and TV's and every single mode is said to work somewhere on something. Therefore it stands to reason that if someone didn't have a monitor or TV yet, that would be some useful information if they wanted an OSSC. All I am doing is asking because I am in that position. Quite a lot of the data collected is from the USA, where brands of TV's differ. The only cross data that is informational to me in the UK is that the LG OLED's have a high compatibility. Which is good news because its one of the TV's on my radar.

Someone else says the Dell 1440p 27" model is a great monitor.

All I want to know if is these 2 screens have any negatives and would they be considered top tier as far as OSSC compatibility is concerned?

Thank you.

[Xyga]

@neorich: sorry I'll use this conversation to post my rant on the topic :p

To satisfy the retroagaming crowd needs and really identify and confirm the best ones, I believe we'd need to review a bare minimum of about 10 displays that meet the primary requirements, every year.
That is one or two from each major TV/monitors name brands.
Besides the ususal tests we'd add our own compatibility and scaling ones.
I think including the proper test and source hardwares, the whole yearly investment would be about 10,000 bucks or something.

A non-independent (or partly) reviewer who's managed to build good relationships with manufacturer reps can hope to receive test samples once in a while, but for having been in that 'trade' I can tell even a handful a year in total is not a given, not easy at all.
An independent one like NCX afaik has to purchase the units with his own money, the rest is info grabbed from a mix of experience, quick (store) minitests, and comparative analysis using other reviews and knowledge of the market. I don't know if he manages to resell some of what he buys himself but it certainly is no pocket money.

What about user posts over the few communities then? Wouldn't that be enough?
Only to some extent, because they're feedback from individuals with very variable levels of knowledge and understanding, equipment, time, expectations, and also influence.
The latter is important, because for the decade I've had an interest in flat panels and following the whole thing, I've seen that misconception and misinformation work a great deal in that field. Even some reviews websites manage to confuse readers by being too green/not thorough and 'scientific' enough in their method.

So what? It's as I said; follow guidelines, if you are ready to learn some and understand the logic. There's enough material to sort and narrow a handful of monitors that should meet your expectations and that you could try yourself, but the likeliness that someone else will have done it all in your place and shared all the info you need, is extremely low. Plus even if someone does there'll always be one fucking little thing or two he won't notice/say/try that could end up being a huge deal breaker for you.

I used to test and advise years even before joining here, since I used to be in a privileged position to do so professionally speaking. I don't do it anymore, or only random bits, never again personalized full advising, I have come to the conclusion that it is a mostly pointless exercise because of the considerable list of market, technical, and personal parameters that participate. NCX got bitter over time because he won't let go.
Most people just come and ask "tell me the right one" and they don't really want to bother with all the tech stuff even if it means overlooking crucial things, or they just follow what opinion leaders state going with the flow buying what others buy.
I must say; this way somewhat works well for a lot of people, it doesn't guarantee they'll get the actual best thing, but weighing things out between the long, tedious process of list-checking all possible parameters to hunt down the precise 'right' monitor (which can take months and isn't 100% foolproof either as the 1 or 2 little things rule always apply), and the simili-Coué method of buying for instance a TV popular on GAF or a monitor popular on whatever PC gaming forums, I think the latter gives the majority the most satisfaction.
I also understand why Rtings have become so popular, because a significant portion of what they do is imposing their own version of things in a way that'll make readers have confidence in their reviews, while looking completely pro/scientific there's a degree of opinion, of bias in their reviews, but for most people seeking to purchase a good product it is very reassuring. Even so they're still a very useful site, actually I wish they would test monitors too, not fucking headphones. ><

/rant

All that said, I'd advise you look into LG 4K monitors, keeping in mind they're IPS and those are not recommended for displaying flickery deinterlaced stuff, and that type of panel often comes with bleeding backlight (has to be bought from a seller with trustable returns/exchange policy)

PS: for that Dell you have no way to know for sure unless someone has thoroughly tested it with an OSSC period. Anyone can tell 'that monitor is great', doesn't mean they know if it's good for your needs. If random short advice is enough to satisfy people then one might as well read product opinions on Amazon or whatever, which is as good as throwing a dice.

[ZellSF]

All I want to know if is these 2 screens have any negatives

I've never bought any electronic product that didn't have any negatives. You look hard enough you can find something wrong with anything. Actually you can probably find a lot of negatives about anything without even looking all that hard.

The only cross data that is informational to me in the UK is that the LG OLED's have a high compatibility. Which is good news because its one of the TV's on my radar.

Someone else says the Dell 1440p 27" model is a great monitor.

There's someone here who has this year's LG OLED (forgot who) and I can get my hands on this year's Dell 27" 1440p monitor (one of them at least) for some testing, but both might be irrelevant if you're not going to buy anything for 12 months.

because i'm only looking for something that works with all modes.

Not happening, the OSSC has a lot of weird modes and even the most compatible display will fail at one of them.

[Xer Xian]

But looking for 100% OSSC compatibility is pointless anyway. The OSSC is equipped with all those modes to cater to a wide array of displays with different underlying panel technology and resolution. If you're buying a 1080p+ display, you're mostly good as long as it supports Line5x (maybe test with a SNES since it seems to be one of the more troublesome). Line2x480p would a a bonus but it's not really mandatory.

Decent deinterlacing would be good to have too, since the OSSC doesn't shine with 480i material (due to it being a line multiplier and not a full blown upscaler).

[ApolloBoy]

To be honest I don't even what half of this thread is talking about and that worries me.

That's what Google is for. To be fair I've complained about the technical stuff being overwhelming in this thread but at least I understand it all.

Also haven't you already complained about how complicated the OSSC looks, and yet you still keep coming back here? I'm confused.

[neorichieb1971]

Geez, I just want to drop a couple of grand on a TV and make sure it works with the OSSC

All these arguments are not what i'm looking for. I just came here to ask a question about the product the thread is about.

I'll just buy the LG.. thanks everyone.

[Chocograph]

Mine's now been shipped! Oh yeah!

[citrus3000psi]

Geez, I just want to drop a couple of grand on a TV and make sure it works with the OSSC

All these arguments are not what i'm looking for. I just came here to ask a question about the product the thread is about.

I'll just buy the LG.. thanks everyone.

This thread is an open discussion, probably should have made a new thread for your specific question. But yeah the LG is the way to go

[BuckoA51]

LMAO, hey Matt, I'm no expert at PR and advertising, but maybe the guy who's in charge of selling the best integer scaling device on the planet shouldn't shit on people who want intger scaling ;p

Well to be fair in most setups your TVs going to be doing at least some of the scaling too when you use an OSSC.

I'm just not keen on those super blocky modes (like 480px2, integer mode on N64 HDMI) that some people seem to go nuts over. No CRT ever integer scaled anything or ever looked over-sharpened like that.

[Xyga]

It doesn't have anything to do with CRTs, integer scaling is the easiest way to get a clean artifacts-free source, either for displaying as 1:1 on a flat panel if the display leaves any choice, or benefiting from a cleaner upscaled output.
Also very good for motion clarity and fake scanlines etc.

[DirkSwizzler]

No CRT ever integer scaled anything or ever looked over-sharpened like that.

1 is an integer.

[fafangus]

@Fafangus: I think any hdmi switcher with 4K support should be fine. Not that 4K support is necessary, but it would guarantee a pixel clock that's (more than) high enough.

Ok thanks, found cheap one over YAJ for 20€ (2X4), sold as used : supports 2k/4k resolutions let's see if it's ok when I'll receive it

[eric90000]

Geez, I just want to drop a couple of grand on a TV and make sure it works with the OSSC

All these arguments are not what i'm looking for. I just came here to ask a question about the product the thread is about.

I'll just buy the LG.. thanks everyone.

I still can't tell if you're trolling or not haha.

If it's any help, I'm in Ireland and I recently bought a 2016 55" Samsung KS7000. It's a fantastic TV, 4K HDR and works with every single mode on the OSSC. linex5 mode with scanlines on at 50% looks pretty amazing with 240p sources.

[Blair]

for those of us invested in integer scaling, I found this interesting blog post/website by a chap that seems to share the same passion. (might also be of interest to those who don't know what integer scaling is.) http://tanalin.com/en/articles/lossless-scaling/

it has some nice examples.

[NJRoadfan]

No CRT ever integer scaled anything or ever looked over-sharpened like that.

No, but you also got a free aliasing filter courtesy of the shadow mask or aperture grill

[Blair]

I think 480px2 can look really nice, especially on systems/games that have somewhat soft, blurry or extremely filtered video output. (pics related, two-dimensional graphics). (I also like the way Mario kart Wii looks in 2X mode on my crt, I was so mesmerized during my play session I forgot to take pictures)

DAC+OSSC at 480p x2. Nintendo Wii, component video.
Display: Samsung UN40 (VGA PC mode, 1:1 pixel mapping)
gallery link: (https://imgur.com/a/nGguG)

Spoiler

Spoiler

[neorichieb1971]

Geez, I just want to drop a couple of grand on a TV and make sure it works with the OSSC

All these arguments are not what i'm looking for. I just came here to ask a question about the product the thread is about.

I'll just buy the LG.. thanks everyone.

I still can't tell if you're trolling or not haha.

If it's any help, I'm in Ireland and I recently bought a 2016 55" Samsung KS7000. It's a fantastic TV, 4K HDR and works with every single mode on the OSSC. linex5 mode with scanlines on at 50% looks pretty amazing with 240p sources.

Trolling? I'm going to support the OSSC buy buying one. Do you think someone like that would be trolling? I just came here to ask a question and because I used words like "Best" it got misinterpreted into a slanging match which I neither wanted or cared about. I've been a member of this forum since before most of you and I've never come here to troll or cause anyone any concern. If I ask a question it should be considered a legitimate question. It would be nice if the people in this thread actually treated people who ask questions with a little more respect.

[Xyga]

TBH yes indeed, integer scaling isn't good for everything and shouldn't be the end-all solution, it's just that the fractional w/bilinear or whatever resized solutions offered in hardware or software by a massive proportion of manufacturers and developers most often look like shit. With the added blur of LCDs it's just a chain of things that are bad for picture quality and motion perception.

You realize it after you've tried integer. Of course once you've experienced the clarity of integer scaling you're tempted to want it everywhere for everything, even if there are black bars or overscan and that it looks blocky when still.
Ultimately what we should really want is better/great, very finely configurable and controllable scaling+smoothing engines.
The only thing I've ever experienced (with 2D at least) that's given me superior satisfaction is the VP50 Pro's EE/DE applied to a source as clean as possible (XRGB or better OSSC, or a HD console source) such combination beats the shit out of every filter and shader over resized/stretched sources I've tried, not to mention TV's built-in solutions (and PC monitors, which are the lowest of the low in terms of scaling)
But the VP50 Pro has its limits, to begin and afaik it can't do more than 1920x1200 while all desirable modern displays are WQHD and 4K, then it's old expensive and not exactly capable of everything compatibility-wise.

It's not tomorrow that we'll get 50Pro-like flexible quality scaling for everything, fast and affordable. In the meantime we have the OSSC and integer scaling options in some emulators.
And it's good, no problem with that, rather it's more bizarre that there'd be strong opposition against it (well some people are fine with over 20-years old disgusting filters and still think they're the future, can't help it)

@neorichieb1971: dude let it go, I think you know well you've asked for something this forum wouldn't have any simple answer for, because there really isn't one and people told you about reality honestly. Your insistance on not wanting to hear it if not intended trolling is kinda provocative/defiant, for no good purpose and outcome I can think of.

[NormalFish]

Trolling? I'm going to support the OSSC buy buying one. Do you think someone like that would be trolling? I just came here to ask a question and because I used words like "Best" it got misinterpreted into a slanging match which I neither wanted or cared about. I've been a member of this forum since before most of you and I've never come here to troll or cause anyone any concern. If I ask a question it should be considered a legitimate question. It would be nice if the people in this thread actually treated people who ask questions with a little more respect.

I mean you've been "going to support the OSSC" for ages now in this thread. I still wouldn't be surprised if you were just a concern troll.

[orange808]

Mocks CRTs, uses fake scanlines that aren't part of pristine original console output.

Fuck me.

[lettuce]

@Fafangus: I think any hdmi switcher with 4K support should be fine. Not that 4K support is necessary, but it would guarantee a pixel clock that's (more than) high enough.

Ok thanks, found cheap one over YAJ for 20€ (2X4), sold as used : supports 2k/4k resolutions let's see if it's ok when I'll receive it

Careful with some of these switchers or though they state they support 4K most of the time its 4K 30fps and not 60fps

[lettuce]

Mocks CRTs, uses fake scanlines that aren't part of pristine original console output.

Fuck me.

Im not sure why some people hate 'fake' scanlines i mean when the programmers were making these games back in the day they designed the graphics to work around CRT scanlines and thus if you remove these scanlines then the game isnt as the programmers intended it to look. As in theory your removing every other line (the scanline) from the picture and thus altering how the game was designed to look

[BuckoA51]

DAC+OSSC at 480p x2. Nintendo Wii, component video.
Display: Samsung UN40 (VGA PC mode, 1:1 pixel mapping)
gallery link: (https://imgur.com/a/nGguG)

That does actually look really good. Maybe I'll drag my DVDO Edge down from the attic and give it a go with the Wii.

1 is an integer.

Lol well you're not wrong I suppose.

It doesn't have anything to do with CRTs, integer scaling is the easiest way to get a clean artifacts-free source, either for displaying as 1:1 on a flat panel if the display leaves any choice, or benefiting from a cleaner upscaled output.
Also very good for motion clarity and fake scanlines etc.

For me though OSSC and suchlike are about getting the games to look like they would have on high end CRTs, the way they were designed to look originally, not pixels so sharp they cut your eyes.

Each to their own though of course. Someone's bound to chime in with the old "why don't you play in composite then so your waterfalls look right?"

[pyrotek85]

Each to their own though of course. Someone's bound to chime in with the old "why don't you play in composite then so your waterfalls look right?"

I don't know about everyone else, but I played quite enough years with RF and composite connections to our TV, even into the 6th gen with my Gamecube. It's all we had at the time, but I'm glad to leave it in the past now.

[Xyga]

For me though OSSC and suchlike are about getting the games to look like they would have on high end CRTs, the way they were designed to look originally, not pixels so sharp they cut your eyes.

Ah, must say I used to aim for the same thing for a long time, then I came to believe that it's better to expect the games to look/behave the best they can on a flat panel, rather than trying to make them look like a real CRT, because I believe current flat panel displays aren't good enough to do that yet.
Too much of the imitation effort is wasted by the shitty motion in particular (I know OLED is real progress but you know what's still missing)

Still I don't want them to look completely sharp/blocky either, or else I would expect something at least on the level or Sonic Mania. Since we do not have the magic wand to make everything look like it, we can compromise with a bit of smoothing and fake scanlines or not (really depends on taste and scrolling direction+refresh+response) or just low multiples + hopefully decent stretching interpolation, many combinations with many hardwares and displays are possible.
Anyway integer scaling the source doesn't mean we have to end up with a 100% blocky-sharp source, to me it's really about finding a sweet spot with the source+scaler+display trio.
Have you spent time playing with the OSSC + 50 Pro and negative EE/DE values? There really are sweet spots somewhere halfway between blocky-sharp and blurry mess. The OSSC with its clean multiples made getting there much easier and better, even easily beating the old XRGB series + DVDO combos.
You could say I consider it a fantastic pre-scaling device.

[orange808]

Mocks CRTs, uses fake scanlines that aren't part of pristine original console output.

Fuck me.

Im not sure why some people hate 'fake' scanlines i mean when the programmers were making these games back in the day they designed the graphics to work around CRT scanlines and thus if you remove these scanlines then the game isnt as the programmers intended it to look. As in theory your removing every other line (the scanline) from the picture and thus altering how the game was designed to look

I don't hate scanlines. Just pointing out that this is nothing but personal preference.

Do what makes you happy.

[ApolloBoy]

I'm going to support the OSSC buy buying one.

I don't invest in experimentation projects.

???

[austin532]

Mocks CRTs, uses fake scanlines that aren't part of pristine original console output.

Fuck me.

Im not sure why some people hate 'fake' scanlines i mean when the programmers were making these games back in the day they designed the graphics to work around CRT scanlines and thus if you remove these scanlines then the game isnt as the programmers intended it to look. As in theory your removing every other line (the scanline) from the picture and thus altering how the game was designed to look

The problem with fake scanlines are that the scanlines are drawn on top of the pixels instead of in between them like a CRT does so I can see why people hate that. They definitely make the image darker but at the same time they definitely help recreate that retro look on flatscreens.

[Xyga]

There's no problem with them being drawn on top of extra rows of pixels that are the result of multiplication/duplication to begin, if we want to bring back the scanlined form factor of CRTs, well, that's the proper way to do it.

Rather IMHO fake scanlines absolutely require
1. the masking lines to be actually 100% black/shutting off light so they hide the colors properly, at least on a minimum of a single line (SLG devices don't make real black lines, rather grey even at maximum density)
2. the display's brightness and contrast has to be sufficient to compensate the global darkening, obviously this works better with at least VA panels

edit @ austin532: if you mean it'd better to actually skip/not draw the extra lines rather than hide them I'd agree with you but I don't think that works for external devices, someone mentioned in the past, I don't think even emulators do that. I have no idea about the issues really implementing that method would raise.

3. remains the issue that with the average 60Hz LCD motion the fake black lines actually get in the way the moment the picture scrolls the opposite direction, motion blur reduction and/or multiplied refresh rates are practically mandatory for the effect to work realistically, that's my biggest issue with fake scanlines.
A trick is to use plain RGB color dots instead black/grey lines, or a mix of black and RGB, this defeats to some extent the vertical motion issues we get with plain black lines, this is the thing I've been experimenting with painted .pngs in MAME. But we cannot do that with our little external hardwares such as the SLGs, XRGBs and OSSC.

[additional rant]
The mistake of advanced CRT shaders IMHO is that they try to emulate what a CRT looks like...not minding that the actual display used 99% of the time is a random 60Hz LCD that'll ruin all those superb details looking awesome still, the moment the game begins to move. The guys who design those shaders are fantastic, but they should have thought of making CRT simulation shaders with the lackings of LCDs in mind.
This is why non-fake-scanlined clean and/or properly scaled and slightly smoothed solutions actually do look better and more efficient when playing. They're much less problematic with colors and motion (at least for our LCDs they are)
[/additional rant]