STGT'12 planning thread

[sikraiken]

- I've never released a DDP replay. I learned how to do it more recently; I've done it in a single run from a save-state that starts at the beginning of 2-5 a few times. I haven't done any full runs of the game in a while, so I haven't done it in a full run.

- The chain timer is shorter in the first loop, so...

- 'Delaying' is the only way to extend difficult chains.

Over 900hit chain is possible in 2-6, I haven't really messed around with it too much.

[RNGmaster]

Hurr, forgot the second point. Dumb question, sorry, just curious.

[Marc]

This thread sums up why I don't really get involved. It's kind of sad that folk are demanding replays in my opinion. Man, if submitting a false score to a niche comp playing niche video games in order to gain, what - respect? - is what makes you happy, there's no helping. If you're the sort that gets nerd rage over it, same applies. What is this, Twin Galaxies?

[sikraiken]

You can just ignore/get past any stupidity and participate anyway. I've done it... many others do the same.

[shadowbringer]

I'll post replays. They'll be boring as shit but I'll post them. Then again I don't really care if people know I'm crap at these games.

Really if people want to make fun of me for posting a score then I'm hardly gonna burst into tears

I wouldn't make fun of your playing or other people's, except if you/other people act like trolls or something like that. Actually, Touhou players of all skill ranges (most of which aren't participating in STGT) submit replays everytime, and to said players, submitting and watching replays (and sometimes submitting them for critique) feels natural.


@Zerst:

I do agree that the K-9 tournament was way smaller than STGT in terms of participants, and for that reason I'm not encouraging mandatory input recording for everyone (would be impossible for the organizers to verify them). I didn't know that the MARP forum-goers are used to the process of submitting input files, and thus, thought that the participants were more adaptable than STGT's xD. Thank you for the information!

This thread sums up why I don't really get involved. It's kind of sad that folk are demanding replays in my opinion. Man, if submitting a false score to a niche comp playing niche video games in order to gain, what - respect? - is what makes you happy, there's no helping. If you're the sort that gets nerd rage over it, same applies. What is this, Twin Galaxies?

personally, I wouldn't mind not having input files (but then again, I'm currently not good enough to execute the gameplan contained in them, to care enough about watching a replay in closer detail; other people can make a better use of said replays than I do, though), but since I've invited Luy to STGT 2009, and then the Cyvern incident happened in 2010 (even getting his score removed from the Cyvern hs thread) and then the Daioh one in 2011, I see this measure as one drama, which could happen during STGTs, while we are currently having another drama now (in the planning thread). I don't think that both are avoidable.

Note, though, that most people around me (who advocate for saving inputs) prefer to encourage them for anything other than verification, instead. Also, even though I'm used to saving inputs in mame (except for the Raiden Fighters series), I agree that for other people (better than me) it could be time-consuming/bothersome and impractical (more time to upload the emulator with the input file).

[Op Intensify]

Man, if submitting a false score to a niche comp playing niche video games in order to gain, what - respect? - is what makes you happy, there's no helping. If you're the sort that gets nerd rage over it, same applies.

I don't nerd rage over this stuff. I wouldn't be screaming for blood if it turned out that someone had indeed falsified a score. But like Hagane said, if we want this to be taken seriously as an actual tournament and not just another "Let's all play these games together! Fun Time 2012" kind of thing that you see on every other retro gaming forum, some universal rules for authentication are needed. They don't need to be extreme or draconian.

I'd say it should be that if what you need to do to capture a replay is more inconvenient than hitting a keyboard shortcut twice or saving to a menu at the end of your run, a screenshot or photo will be adequate. You know that most of the top scorers here will go out of their way to provide a replay/video, anyway.

[Despatche]

Not much to do here... please stop giving Marc attention.

In a good competition (which likely won't happen considering the huge resistance many players on this forum have against getting good; see "I PLAY FOR FUN") each player has access to the same information and the same scoring strategies - the only things separating us are:

a) the level of precision of our execution and
b) the efficiency of our practicing methods.

This might seem like a punch in the chest to the people who view shmup skills as some sort of beautiful organic construct, but high level play depends almost solely on these two factors.

It's a good description because of this reason. Being able to do things well is a wonderful, wonderful thing.

[ebarrett]

This thread sums up why I don't really get involved.

I assume it also sums up why you haven't submitted any scores in what, seven years?

It's too easy to wander in and criticize when you apparently do not care at all. You can go back to off-topic now.

[Plasmo]

I don't nerd rage over this stuff. I wouldn't be screaming for blood if it turned out that someone had indeed falsified a score. But like Hagane said, if we want this to be taken seriously as an actual tournament and not just another "Let's all play these games together! Fun Time 2012" kind of thing that you see on every other retro gaming forum, some universal rules for authentication are needed. They don't need to be extreme or draconian.

I don't see how having a good time and enjoying the tournament for the fun is contradictory to actually play seriously. Due to personal reasons, I won't participate this year (count me in next year for sure!), but I always play very seriously with probably at least 10 hours of gametime per day. It can be exhausting and frustrating, and I'm giving my best to get a good score, which I can be proud of. I don't see anything wrong aswell with being proud of what you've earned through hard work, no matter how niche the stuff is that you're doing.

Nevertheless I'm playing for fun only. All the sweat and tears pay off in the end (most of the time at least ). If someone is making up his scores, I wouldn't be less proud of my own achievements, because I'm actually doing it for myself. If I would compare myself to others, all my scores were utter shit because there's a country named Japan.

Replays are fun to watch, but sharing the strategies and talking with my teammates in our forum does about the same thing for me. I'm not for mandatory replays. If someone wants to release a replay, I'll be all over it, but making it mandatory makes the pressure way too uncomfortable and would actually destroy some of the fun for me.

In all those years we've never really had any serious problems with fake scores (exception: Cyvern) and all people seemed to be honest about their scores. Can't we leave it as it is now until we get some problems? Faked scores aren't that difficult to spot. All the top players here have some kind of videogame ethic anyway (yeah, silly term).

[Marc]

This thread sums up why I don't really get involved.

I assume it also sums up why you haven't submitted any scores in what, seven years?

It's too easy to wander in and criticize when you apparently do not care at all. You can go back to off-topic now.

Many factors, I have a family and lack the time to practice in an organised manner, I play a lot of games in the limited time I do have available, and while there is a thread or two in which I could submit a score, I really don't see the point in being 18th best at game X. I'm certainly not going to be troubling the top ten in any of the shooters I play semi-regularly anytime soon, and yes I'm ok with that.

You can go back to being a prick now.

[FIL]

The rules are the same as always. Nobody has ever cried about STGT being super happy casual fun time before.

Even though a lot of people complain this forum is a hole and the community stinks (it doesn't). We actually have a good atmosphere of mutual trust when it comes to submitting scores. Asking for mandatory replays compromises this in favour of living up to some bullshit 'hardcore gaming' ideal that is much more harmful to gaming communities than casual gaming.

What makes a competition serious or casual is the attitude of the players, not arbitrary verification rules.

tl;dr, My Little STGT: Mutual Trust is Magic

[moozooh]

I agree with FIL.

[njiska]

The rules are the same as always. Nobody has ever cried about STGT being super happy casual fun time before.

Even though a lot of people complain this forum is a hole and the community stinks (it doesn't). We actually have a good atmosphere of mutual trust when it comes to submitting scores. Asking for mandatory replays compromises this in favour of living up to some bullshit 'hardcore gaming' ideal that is much more harmful to gaming communities than casual gaming.

What makes a competition serious or casual is the attitude of the players, not arbitrary verification rules.

tl;dr, My Little STGT: Mutual Trust is Magic

Summed up my views nicely.

[burgerkingdiamond]

has the game list been decided yet?

[ebarrett]

Many factors, I have a family and lack the time to practice in an organised manner, I play a lot of games in the limited time I do have available, and while there is a thread or two in which I could submit a score, I really don't see the point in being 18th best at game X. I'm certainly not going to be troubling the top ten in any of the shooters I play semi-regularly anytime soon, and yes I'm ok with that.

Well in that case you can go back to your other post and edit it so that it doesn't say something completely different to put the blame on the discussion going on in this thread and the half of it that you disagree with! Seriously, why bother arguing back if you're just going to prove my point. That might work with some of the jokers that inhabit this thing but you'll have to try harder to not look stupid when up against people capable of properly using their opposing thumbs.

[DMC]

I think the bottom-5 players should be required to submit an inp, so we can tell what the hell they are doing.
jk

I'm quite sensitive to anything mandatory in my hobbies. Even if it's easy to do physically, I'm a bit afraid it might mentally turn into a chore instead.

[Bananamatic]

I think the bottom-5 players should be required to submit an inp, so we can tell what the hell they are doing.

playing good games

[blackoak]

The only way this would annoy me is if I happened to get a high score while practicing, and hadn't bothered to record an inp. But I think the chances of me getting a top 5 score "accidentally" are so low that it isn't worth (my) caring about.

[ShadowWraith]

Waffles recipe:

Ingredients

2 eggs
2 cups all-purpose flour
1 3/4 cups milk
1/2 cup vegetable oil
1 tablespoon white sugar
4 teaspoons baking powder
1/4 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon vanilla extract

Directions

Preheat waffle iron. Beat eggs in large bowl with hand beater until fluffy. Beat in flour, milk, vegetable oil, sugar, baking powder, salt and vanilla, just until smooth.
Spray preheated waffle iron with non-stick cooking spray. Pour mix onto hot waffle iron. Cook until golden brown. Serve hot.

[DJ Incompetent]

You want a legit replay verification competition? Put up a big-ass prize for winners.

No prize? No scouts? No sponsorship contract? The results are friendly competition. That is how it will stay.



So all that leaves this debate to be about, is player reputation.
Reputation has a funny way of policing itself, but it does police itself. The more forum users suspect a player is cheating, the higher the burden of proof is on that player to provide it. If requests are constantly ignored, the forum response tends to be to ignore the player's accomplishments. Zero fucks are given if the player is written in green on the leaderboard or not.

This is a team competition. A single player cheating can only boost one-third of a team's score for one round. A single instance of this does not produce an astronomical impact. Cases of widespread cheating or leaderboard trolling have a tendency of "performing the policework" for us. Catching a serial asshole may not be as immediate as we'd all like, but the more frequent a player is claiming scores beyond his or her skill, the more likely the player will slip up somewhere important.

If you're focusing reeeal heavy on the single player side of competition (fun opinion: I don't think you should), if ya spot a known dickhead boosting his scores, you know where he is on the green list and ignore him. Did you and every player below that suspect player lose a ranking point or two because of his douchebaggery? Yeah. Can you use your head to add a point or two back onto your ranking points to estimate where you should be on the leaderboard? Yes. Do that. Politely ask a suspect for additional verification as you wish. PM him a WolfMAME download with configuration instructions. Pull a TonK 'n bet $10000 for proof if the guy is reaaaally making you that salty.

There is more to reputation than green numbers on a thread board: helpful advice, authoring strategy threads, putting up vids with good quality and proper notation, rarely subtracting from a thread discussion. It's a combination of how a player carries herself or himself that determines who is best.



If shit gets all kinds of catastrophic, this-here language we put in can still be a thing:

(However if you are a troll or have a questionable reputation, be prepared to be asked for snapshots or other forms of verification.)

[Bananamatic]

You want a legit replay verification competition? Put up a big-ass prize for winners.

Sikraiken Gets Free Shit '12

[sikraiken]

Sounds great!

[ebarrett]

Username: luy
Desired Team: Pelé Shooting Team
Team Captain Vote: coffeejoerx
Desired Team Registration Status: Closed
Region: Brasil
Expected # Week Participation: All

oh boy

[mesh control]

when are the stgt congressional hearings happening?
offseason, i'm assuming.

[Marc]

Many factors, I have a family and lack the time to practice in an organised manner, I play a lot of games in the limited time I do have available, and while there is a thread or two in which I could submit a score, I really don't see the point in being 18th best at game X. I'm certainly not going to be troubling the top ten in any of the shooters I play semi-regularly anytime soon, and yes I'm ok with that.

Well in that case you can go back to your other post and edit it so that it doesn't say something completely different to put the blame on the discussion going on in this thread and the half of it that you disagree with! Seriously, why bother arguing back if you're just going to prove my point. That might work with some of the jokers that inhabit this thing but you'll have to try harder to not look stupid when up against people capable of properly using their opposing thumbs.

Why would I do that? My post was a direct response to your jibe regarding my lack of hi-score activity. I was semi interested in the comp, hence me visiting the fucking thread, as I thought it may motivate me to practice a little more and get the competitive juices flowing a little. The last four pages, and people with clever attitudes like yours have left me cold and I simply can't be arsed. I suspect I'm not the only one.

[emphatic]

spanish_inquisition.jpg

[moozooh]

Brief recap of Marc vs. ebarrett.

Thread: (arguments and bickering about formalities.)
Marc: Arguments and bickering is why I don't get involved.
eb: You don't get involved anyway.
Marc: (reasons unrelated to the thread.)
eb: Your reasons are unrelated to the thread.
Marc: You're an ass.

[Jaimers]

Did someone say Spanish Inquisition?!

[Marc]

Brief recap of Marc vs. ebarrett.

Thread: (arguments and bickering about formalities.)
Marc: Arguments and bickering is why I don't get involved.
eb: You don't get involved anyway.
Marc: (reasons unrelated to the thread.)
eb: Your reasons are unrelated to the thread.
Marc: You're an ass.

Yep, pretty much, though the reasons unrelated to the thread were related to a post aimed directly at me.

[Gähnende Leere]

has the game list been decided yet?

for captains work...