7th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Results

Post by **system11** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:18 pm

jonny5 wrote:
bloodflowers wrote:
jonny5 wrote:im sorry, stargate sux.....it might have been something 30 yearss ago....but times change....
Try playing it. Come back and post when it's handed you your ass 5 times in a row. j^aws has a point, up to a point.

Stargate also has very basic graphics and sound, a simple scoring system, and is simply a different type of game to what people are playing now. That doesn't mean it 'sux' - it's still a great game. Try Juno First for another old twitcher which still rocks.
i didnt say it was easy...i said it sux compared to more modern games....

my comment was more related to j^aws insisting that it has a place in the top25....and my point is that it may be a great game, but it has been overshadowed slightly over the past few decades.....

Is Citizen Kane one of the best films ever made? A lot of people will tell you it is. Why are videogames different in that old automatically = not as good?

Stargate would be a perfectly valid vote for the top 25, even if hardly anyone agrees. I'd play Juno First over Esprade in a heartbeat, because it's more fun.

Anyway - I think that's enough for this thread - can we get back to discussion of the top 25 results rather than the "attack j^aws because he likes old games" flamewar?

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:30 pm

This thread needs more Juno First.

You know that is some hawt shit.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:33 pm

juno first #25

Mortificator · Post by **Mortificator** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:43 pm

The box art ever.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:37 pm

i feel bad for you jaws, cos it seems like you pit 10x as much effort in that i did with ketsui, for less than a tenth of the outcome. you're doing all the multiquotes, searching shit, and trying to break it all down point by point; and i got a top hat avatar and a picture of a cow in my sig

from watching vids of stargate, i don't think i've actually been able to watch a single youtube clip of it all the way through. maybe it's the lack of soundtrack, or the monotony of the visuals, but it just gives me a headache. never actually played it, but it strikes me as the type of game that a mame version would pale in comparison without the tactile response of a dedicated stargate panel. main things that concern me are: is it one of those games that can be played endlessly, or is there a finite amount of gameplay? and it's not really the type of game that i would associate with being a shmup in the first place (although that's just me)

we have an ignore function on arcadeotaku and it works a treat. no "disjointed" conversations. no idea what type of forum/software it is though

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:38 pm

jonny5 only plays Cave games, j^aws. That should say everything.

Cave games do not "improve" on Stargate. It's a totally different experience. Maybe it's because I'm more accustomed to newer games, but it's more challenging, too. Definitely a more unique challenge when placed next to the current cast of shumps.org (for the spaceship control panel alone).

put somebody with zero experience with shmups in front of stargate and any other game made in last 10 years and ask them which they like more...

Let's get some gamepro reviewers in here.

Dragoforce · Post by **Dragoforce** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:08 pm

I like Stargate. When I visit my parents, I usually plays quite a lot with my mother

VorpalEdge · Post by **VorpalEdge** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:50 pm

bloodflowers wrote:Is Citizen Kane one of the best films ever made? A lot of people will tell you it is. Why are videogames different in that old automatically = not as good?

Videogames are not movies, and you really should stop creating strawmen.

Games can be iteratively improved over time. Hardware limitations and developers generally just not knowing what to do hobble a lot of older games. Metroid 1, for instance, is crap compared to Super. Zelda 1 is terrible compared to ALttP. SMB3 is (supposedly) much better than SMB1. Dodonpachi is better than Space Invaders. Newer games can be and are better in many instances, and seeing a list composed mostly of newer games does not faze me in the slightest, because frankly, a bunch of those older games suck ass and are impossible for people who've never played them before to enjoy today.

I'm not naming names, of course, and I'm not speaking of Stargate, since I've never played it. This still needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, since it's quite possible for a newer game to suck too. You'll also notice that I stuck with comparing games whose core mechanics are essentially the same - i.e. comparing Metroid Prime Hunters to Metroid 1, for instance, would be stupid for the purposes of this discussion, so if anyone starts mentioning how they don't like the games produced today and that older games are sooo much better I'm just going to cry and say you don't understand what I'm talking about because you're bringing your personal tastes into this.

Instead, what I am saying is that, for games which are direct sequels to each other in terms of mechanics, improvements are possible. As such, over time, even if improvements are not very likely (which they aren't, really), a top 25 list within a specific genre like this will come to be dominated by newer and newer games. It's just the way of things. It's not a reflection on the quality of the old games, it just means new games had more time to get better. That's all, really.

And as for movies, how could they be improved? By adding in more special effects? Hah. As much as Hollywood would like you to believe otherwise, movies are much more timeless than games and cannot be iteratively improved in nearly the same way that games can.

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:00 pm

Rob wrote:jonny5 only plays Cave games, j^aws.

very good point Rob...i think i should just avoid conversations involving non-cave games, cuz more often than not i think they suck....especially pre-90's stuff

its becoming quite clear that i am very picky about what i like in games, and i tend to move anything else into the 'sux' column, which probably isnt fair

i apologize if my opinion is offensive to anybody, but take it with a grain of salt...as Rob said, i only play cave games(other than puzzle games

) so my opinion is biased

Dragoforce · Post by **Dragoforce** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:08 pm

[quote="Vorpalif anyone starts mentioning how they don't like the games produced today and that older games are sooo much better I'm just going to cry and say you don't understand what I'm talking about because you're bringing your personal tastes into this.[/quote]

Isn't that what games is all about? Personal taste and opinion? I know lot of people who prefers the simpler gameplay of space invaders before that of DDP. My aforementioned mother for example

VorpalEdge · Post by **VorpalEdge** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:14 pm

Dragoforce wrote:Isn't that what games is all about? Personal taste and opinion? I know lot of people who prefers the simpler gameplay of space invaders before that of DDP. My aforementioned mother for example :wink:

Those are very large factors, yeah, but you seem like you're saying that no one game can possibly be better than another for reasons like improved game mechanics (or that some mechanics can not be objectively better than others, personal preferences aside). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if that's what you're saying, then I really don't think we have much to say to each other. :/

Dragoforce · Post by **Dragoforce** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:33 pm

VorpalEdge wrote:Those are very large factors, yeah, but you seem like you're saying that no one game can possibly be better than another for reasons like improved game mechanics (or that some mechanics can not be objectively better than others, personal preferences aside). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if that's what you're saying, then I really don't think we have much to say to each other. :/

Of course a game can be than another game if you improve the mechanics. But thats not the question in most cases. Super Metroid is basicly an improved version of the original Metroid and I totaly agree with you on that Super Metroid is definitly the better game. But that's not the same thing as saying that older game suck ass more than new game. It's a diffrent taste.

For example. There are basicly no modern versions of Stargate, Space invaders, Crazy ballon or any of the other early arcade games. That kind of really simple and easily accessible games does not exist today. Comparing DDP to Space invaders is kind of like comparing Gran Turismo to GTA. Both share some similarity in the gameplay, shooting and dodging in Space invaders/DDP and driving in Gran Turismo/GTA but apart from that, they are completly diffrent games.

Feel like I am drifting of a bit here, but what i'm saying is that you have to be careful when comparing older games to newer ones because the gameplay is so much diffrent between them. We could offcourse argue until the end of days which genre a certain game belongs to, but thats a whole diffrent discussion

Sorry for the bad english..

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:35 pm

i'd like to meet your mum

Dale · Post by **Dale** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:40 pm

What was fun is still fun. If we're talking about 2-D games I highly doubt hardware advancements effect how good an older game is compared to a new one. It's just over the years developer's got smarter on how to program things. Most of the best concepts in games don't come about due to technology(although it helps). Tetris, 8 -way shooting in Contra, lot's of bullets with a small hit box, were brought about because the developers just thought of doing it. Something like DDP could of been done on older hardware if the development team had the initiative to make it. Hardware definitely helped in the process but it's creative influence that makes a game good. This could also be applied to 3-D games as well.

And to deny older games the respect that older movies have is ignorant. People thinking that the newest games with the best technology are simply better by default is the reason the game industry sucks so bad today. If you sit down and play pre-84 arcade shmup you'll notice that it doesn't have qualities of newer games and that newer games don't have qualities of it.

VorpalEdge · Post by **VorpalEdge** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:46 pm

Dragoforce wrote:Of course a game can be than another game if you improve the mechanics. But thats not the question in most cases. Super Metroid is basicly an improved version of the original Metroid and I totaly agree with you on that Super Metroid is definitly the better game. But that's not the same thing as saying that older game suck ass more than new game. It's a diffrent taste.

I'm glad that, even if you think my examples suck, you agree with my basic point though. I'm not here to bash on older games (I mean, I am posting on these forums, after all :P. There are definitely a bunch of good ones too) but... well, yeah.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:52 pm

Galaxian is better than Space Invaders, no need to look more than a year ahead for that.

a top 25 list within a specific genre like this will come to be dominated by newer and newer games.

No, it won't. The peak is clearly in the past, about a decade ago. It will keep getting further away as the years pass!

Chi_Ryu · Post by **Chi_Ryu** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:40 am

Rob wrote:Galaxian is better than Space Invaders

Indeed. And Galaga is better than Galaxian, and (arguably) Galaga 88 is better than Galaga. Simple shooters are not limited to the output of 1978-1981.

I've still got a soft spot for Ian McLeod's Spheres of Chaos (on the Acorn Archimedes in 1992), which is essentially Asteroids on LSD.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:36 am

Chi_Ryu wrote:I've still got a soft spot for Ian McLeod's Spheres of Chaos (on the Acorn Archimedes in 1992), which is essentially Asteroids on LSD.

Have you played the PC port? There was a time when I was seriously hooked on that game, it's just a big freaking color explosion!

cools · Post by **cools** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:30 am

Chi_Ryu wrote:
Rob wrote:Galaxian is better than Space Invaders
Indeed. And Galaga is better than Galaxian, and (arguably) Galaga 88 is better than Galaga. Simple shooters are not limited to the output of 1978-1981.

Galaga is great fun, but given the choice I'd rather play Cosmo Gang The Video any day of the week.

Chi_Ryu · Post by **Chi_Ryu** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:51 pm

moozooh wrote:Have you played the PC port? There was a time when I was seriously hooked on that game, it's just a big freaking color explosion!

Yeah, I even bought a site license for it for my work back in 2000 (it was like $15 or something)

It doesn't work too well on LCD monitors, though :{

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:40 pm

bloodflowers wrote:
j^aws wrote:
Rob wrote:You seem to be suggesting something.
That some members are better ignored, with an ignore function? : )
Even if we upgraded to software that supported it, I would disable the ignoring of users, because it's stupid and leads to stupid disjointed conversations.

And then I would be all like, "Wait a minute, what?? Aren't you guys reading each other's posts? How can we have a conversation like this??"

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:07 pm

List needs more stuff that's undead and in formation.

Also, who the fuck voted for Divine Sealing?

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:38 pm

VorpalEdge wrote:Videogames are not movies, and you really should stop creating strawmen.

A modern videogame (and some older games) is a music album, a movie, and a book all rolled up in one... and it's interactive. I've tried telling people this, but they refuse to listen!

Metroid 1, for instance, is crap compared to Super. Zelda 1 is terrible compared to ALttP. SMB3 is (supposedly) much better than SMB1. Dodonpachi is better than Space Invaders.

Guess which one's the odd one out!

Dale · Post by **Dale** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:06 pm

Sadly Divine Sealing was voted in by Ceph in a joke vote. I was really hoping that someone actually liked Eight Forces, D-Force, B-Wings or Divine Sealing. That would be neat.

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:51 am

Dale wrote:I was really hoping that someone actually liked Eight Forces, D-Force, B-Wings or Divine Sealing. That would be neat.

Especially if they could back up their preferences with good arguments. It would certainly make for an interesting discussion.

Danbo · Post by **Danbo** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:18 pm

I'd like to see a Top 25 Shmup Bosses of All Time poll.

Alec · Post by **Alec** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:30 pm

<----- #1 Spider-Cat <3er

ncp · Post by **ncp** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:43 pm

Danbo Daxter wrote:I'd like to see a Top 25 Shmup Bosses of All Time poll.

[25] DOJ stage 2 boss
[1] 24 other bosses

VorpalEdge · Post by **VorpalEdge** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:16 pm

Pfft, Queen Fossil in G-Darius is so much better.

Dale · Post by **Dale** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:27 am

1.Thunder Force2 tank boss
2.Any Le Souer boss.
3.Black Heart
4.Espgaluda Train Boss
5.Any Exesuise boss(Butchered spelling)

Edit;What was I thinking