STGT2k7- Week#3 Darius Gaiden

[neo]

Rob - Turbo Team - 6,881,600 - ABDHLQV - MAME

lowest 1LC on chart

Wrong, mine was a 1LC too, and it was lower (6.295.180) .

[P_HAT]

Rob - Turbo Team - 6,881,600 - ABDHLQV - MAME

lowest 1LC on chart

Wrong, mine was a 1LC too, and it was lower (6.295.180) .

HOW?!

[Twiddle]

not picking up second extend

[neo]

not picking up second extend

Wait a minute. There was a second extend?
Why didn't anyone tell me .

[Twiddle]

^proof nobody reads the strategy forum

[P_HAT]

^proof nobody reads the strategy forum

i read

not picking up second extend

so, even Rob?!

[Twiddle]

You can get that much by having 0 bombs and missing the captures.

[Fu]

not picking up second extend

Wait a minute. There was a second extend?
Why didn't anyone tell me .

There is a french forum where I said anyone could ask me something on the game. You know the shmup.com forum ? Aaaaah...

[Rob]

Ryu Jin rules! I think we should play Ryu Jin on the hidden gem week

I'm glad I played all of those terrible games so I know now how completely ridiculous this is. No.

[Shatterhand]

Ryu Jin rules! I think we should play Ryu Jin on the hidden gem week

I'm glad I played all of those terrible games so I know now how completely ridiculous this is. No.

you noticed I was being sarcastic, right?


Edit: When DJI released the updated score chart, I'll just edit Edge's original post and put it there, if it's ok to everyone.

[Rob]

You honestly suggested Compile games before, so how am I supposed to know.

[Enhasa]

Just their shooters. Most of the misc games they did were pretty top notch.

Lufia 1 and 2!

[Shatterhand]

You honestly suggested Compile games before, so how am I supposed to know.

I did it? I always said Compile games aren't good for score competition. The only thing I said is that Darius Gaiden's score system is as retarded as any Compile game.

[The Coop]

The only thing I said is that Darius Gaiden's score system is as retarded as any Compile game.

Not really.

[Davey]

Ayanami - Great Lakes Avengers - 9,057,340 - ABDHLQV ALL - Saturn

Couldn't let me edge you out, could you?

[Ayanami]

I thought you still had the 6 million score when I got that thing. It made me chuckle. I was going to try and give it another go to get over 10 million before time ran out, but I was not in the most terrific of moods and tired to boot. We probably could have really used a 10 million score though.

[BrianC]

I have to side with Twiddle and BulletMagnet. Darius Gaiden may not be the crappiest game ever, but it has plenty of glaring flaws that suck any enjoyment out of the game, at least for me. Basically, it keeps everything I always disliked about the Darius series and adds bad bullet visibilty and a retarded rank system. Yay!

Frankly, I never understood why people liked any Darius game in the first place. (Exclude G-Darius here, because it changes the formula quite a bit with break lasers and whatnot, even though that doesn't make me like it any better. But in this case I can see why others might like it, at least.)

I like big mechanical fish as much as the next guy, but the Darius games have always had sloppy level design that constantly changes from bland to repetitive to chaotic and back again. Darius Gaiden is no exception. There are cheap deaths galore, both during the stages and at the bosses. The boss fights indeed tend to be terribly drawn out (think TF4 when you've lost the only weapon that can hurt the boss somewhere during the stage) and later boss patterns don't up the challenge in any clever ways, they just add difficulty by putting more and more incredibly uninteresting patterns on top of each other. No japanese games ever got closer to feel like a bad euroshmup than the Darius games up to and including Gaiden. While I'm at it: Typical euroshmups always get a lot of flak for using a lifebar to cover up weaknesses in the game design, and rightfully so. But the Dariuses use the shield extra in much the same way, yet they never get criticized for that. How come?

For me, Darius Gaiden boils down to "Don't lose your shield!", accompanied with "Don't lose your wave shot!" in the second half of the game.

Sure, there's at least something to like in the game: The silly boss warnings, parts of the presentation (the fish look great and so do some of the background graphics, while the majority of the backgrounds looks really really shitty) and the music, which, at the very least, is original, even though I'd be hard pressed to say that I actually like it.
Sadly, none of Darius's strength have much to do with the gameplay, though.

Just my two cents. I had to get it off my chest before playing another round of this.. this... awrgh!

I highly disagree with your sentiments. Darius Gaiden is nowhere near as broken as you suggest. I like it for the gameplay, not the presentation. I feel Darius Gaiden shouldn't be lumped with the older Darius games. It plays quite a bit different and is actually more forgiving in some ways. The power up system is much less forgiving in the original Darius, for example. It seems that half the games that many consider good get talked about here like they are the worst designed game ever, when they are actually very well designed, just not to everyone's tastes.

[BulletMagnet]

It plays quite a bit different and is actually more forgiving in some ways. The power up system is much less forgiving in the original Darius, for example.

That said, though, I'm afraid that "the previous games were worse" doesn't strike me as a reason to judge a game any differently than I would when looking at it by itself. Even if the older games were even nastier, DG still gives you very little wiggle room when it comes to weaponry, especially since, as Twiddle mentioned, the rank doesn't ever decrease to accommodate your reduced weapon level when you die. Even games several years older than DG offered you that much.

It seems that half the games that many consider good get talked about here like they are the worst designed game ever, when they are actually very well designed, just not to everyone's tastes.

"Good design" is in itself rather subjective, imo, in similar fashion to "good art" - Duchamp is generally revered enough to be in most any art history book, but there's still a sizable bunch, myself included, who care absolutely nothing for his work or his contributions to art as a whole. I guess sort of the same thing can be said for Darius - most any shmupper knows of it and has likely played at least some of the games (and it did well enough to become one of Taito's more famous series), but some, myself included, simply don't go for it. Is anyone demanding that Darius be taken off its pedestal and resigned to Rob's next "hidden gem search?" I don't think anyone is. This doesn't mean, however, that one still can't question the success of certain design choices therein.

[BrianC]

It plays quite a bit different and is actually more forgiving in some ways. The power up system is much less forgiving in the original Darius, for example.

That said, though, I'm afraid that "the previous games were worse" doesn't strike me as a reason to judge a game any differently than I would when looking at it by itself. Even if the older games were even nastier, DG still gives you very little wiggle room when it comes to weaponry, especially since, as Twiddle mentioned, the rank doesn't ever decrease to accommodate your reduced weapon level when you die. Even games several years older than DG offered you that much.

I wasn't simply saying that the previous games were worse. I was saying they are different. They were lumped as if they were the same and they aren't. Darius Gaiden is MUCH faster paced and the even the patterns move faster. The patterns aren't exactly the same as in the older ones as described (then again, I'm probably being too general since Darius II also offers a great deal of improvements over the first game and I left Darius Twin out, which is many ways, is the most forgiving of the Darius games). Also, as far as the weapon goes, unlike many other games, Darius Gaiden downgrades your weapon to the previous level rather than fully downgrading it. Then again, in the first Darius, once upgraded, the weapons stay upgraded for good, though the game is very unforgiving in how long it takes to upgrade. However, in Darius Gaiden, the missile and shield upgrades are permanent.

BTW, I stated that I liked the earlier Darius games in an earlier post.

It seems that half the games that many consider good get talked about here like they are the worst designed game ever, when they are actually very well designed, just not to everyone's tastes.

"Good design" is in itself rather subjective, imo, in similar fashion to "good art" - Duchamp is generally revered enough to be in most any art history book, but there's still a sizable bunch, myself included, who care absolutely nothing for his work or his contributions to art as a whole. I guess sort of the same thing can be said for Darius - most any shmupper knows of it and has likely played at least some of the games (and it did well enough to become one of Taito's more famous series), but some, myself included, simply don't go for it. Is anyone demanding that Darius be taken off its pedestal and resigned to Rob's next "hidden gem search?" I don't think anyone is. This doesn't mean, however, that one still can't question the success of certain design choices therein.

I agree it's hit or miss. However, I also feel the constant bashing is having a negative effect on the comp for those who do like the games. Some of the negative posts are often misunderstood as majority opinion when it's not, which shows in the polls. As far as Darius Gaiden goes, I also feel that some of the comparisons to the other games are misleading and don't reflect on the actual differences between the games, and even between Euroshmups.

I feel that comparing the Darius games to Euroshmups is rather harsh, especially since they are NOT designed like poorly designed Euroshmups where you HAVE to be hit . There are some VERY well designed Euroshmups out there too.

[_Bnu]

Here's what the dude who pilots the creepy ship had to say:

[BulletMagnet]

I feel that comparing the Darius games to Euroshmups is rather harsh, especially since they are NOT designed like poorly designed Euroshmups where you HAVE to be hit

Not sure if you caught it, but in an earlier post I mentioned a superplay I watched where even the player therein, who seemed to know the boss he was fighting (Storm Causer) inside and out, found himself caught in a pattern which even he was unable to find a way through, and would have instantly killed him had he not had a shield. I'll have to see if I can find a link to it... (Ah, here it is - look maybe ten seconds before the two-minute mark. The one overlapping pattern is simply too tight for his hitbox to get through, and a few moments later he loses the rest of his shield exploiting a safe spot. Since he was using autofire he managed to kill the boss before he was able to send those patterns at him again, but if he'd had to face them sans shield he'd have had no shot at it. Unless I'm missing something...)

I agree it's hit or miss, but these negative posts seem to be almost to the point as if they were telling me I shouldn't like the game, which I don't agree with. I feel people are entitled to an opinion, but I also feel I shouldn't be stepped on for having a differing, but still vaild view of the game.

I don't think anyone is questioning anyone else's credentials as a shmupper for liking a game they don't like - believe me, I've taken my lumps as an unrepentant Cotton and Vasara fan (not to mention for being a non-fan of other games, on occasion), but, at least in most cases, I had no reason to take the comments personally. I mean, if you can't discuss something candidly and without fear of stepping on toes, what's the point of having a forum for it in the first place?

The negative posts overshadow the positive ones and make it sound like people should hate the games no matter what. I also feel these posts are having a negative effect on the competition and are effecting the polls in a negative way.

I tend to hope that people take the time to try a game before they decide to vote (or not vote) for it, or at least just refrain from voting if you don't know the titles well enough to make an honest decision. Seriously, there's going to be some complaining (separate from actual debate) no matter what's chosen, so altering one's vote to attempt to accommodate this is a fool's errand, and I think most participants know that.

[The Coop]

However, I also feel the constant bashing is having a negative effect on the comp for those who do like the games.

I think the only people that could be affected would be those who have never played the game being put down. It might turn them off if they're prone to not trying games out for themselves. Otherwise, those who already like the games receiving all the complaints don't really give two shits about what's being said, as they're going to continue liking the games regardless of anyone's comparison, technical break down, or gameplay dissection.

[BrianC]

However, I also feel the constant bashing is having a negative effect on the comp for those who do like the games.

I think the only people that could be affected would be those who have never played the game being put down. It might turn them off if they're prone to not trying games out for themselves. Otherwise, those who already like the games receiving all the complaints don't really give two shits about what's being said, as they're going to continue liking the games regardless of anyone's comparison, technical break down, or gameplay dissection.

Good point. I was also referring to how the games were chosen for the comp, though. Edge talked about Twinbee Yahhoo as if nobody here liked it, when it has had positive buzz here in the past. I also agree that I shouldn't be worrying, especially since I played, read about, and like the games.

Seriously, there's going to be some complaining (separate from actual debate) no matter what's chosen, so altering one's vote to attempt to accommodate this is a fool's errand, and I think most participants know that.

I wasn't talking about altering the vote. I was talking more about how some pre-vote suggestions seem to be ignored because of the negative posts. I could be wrong on this, but Edge's posts gave me that suggestion. I understand there will be complaining no matter what is chosen, but this is exactly why I feel the complaints shouldn't be the only judge of what gets chosen.
______________

[Zebra Airforce]

Not sure if you caught it, but in an earlier post I mentioned a superplay I watched where even the player therein, who seemed to know the boss he was fighting (Storm Causer) inside and out, found himself caught in a pattern which even he was unable to find a way through, and would have instantly killed him had he not had a shield. I'll have to see if I can find a link to it... (Ah, here it is - look maybe ten seconds before the two-minute mark. The one overlapping pattern is simply too tight for his hitbox to get through, and a few moments later he loses the rest of his shield exploiting a safe spot.

Your hitbox is bigger when you have a shield.

[The Coop]

However, I also feel the constant bashing is having a negative effect on the comp for those who do like the games.

I think the only people that could be affected would be those who have never played the game being put down. It might turn them off if they're prone to not trying games out for themselves. Otherwise, those who already like the games receiving all the complaints don't really give two shits about what's being said, as they're going to continue liking the games regardless of anyone's comparison, technical break down, or gameplay dissection.

Good point. I was also referring to how the games were chosen for the comp, though. Edge talked about Twinbee Yahhoo as if nobody here liked it, when it has had positive buzz here in the past.

Oooooooohhhhhh... the pun! THE PUN!

Your hitbox is bigger when you have a shield.

I always thought it seemed to be. It makes sense really. Bullets are hitting your shield, which is a barrier around your ship. The barrier's bigger than your actual ship, so you'd be a bigger target as a result. This isn't going to be to everyone's liking mind you, but it makes sense.

[Twiddle]

If it's bigger it's a one pixel border bigger.

[BrianC]

Good point. I was also referring to how the games were chosen for the comp, though. Edge talked about Twinbee Yahhoo as if nobody here liked it, when it has had positive buzz here in the past.

Oooooooohhhhhh... the pun! THE PUN!

Edit: oops. read the post wrong. Buzz. Bee.

I always thought it seemed to be. It makes sense really. Bullets are hitting your shield, which is a barrier around your ship. The barrier's bigger than your actual ship, so you'd be a bigger target as a result. This isn't going to be to everyone's liking mind you, but it makes sense.

Speaking of Twinbee and barriers, the one in the original arcade Twinbee is probably one of the biggest shields I have seen in a shmup. It not only has a huge hitbox, but it actually prevents you from moving to the very edge of the screen.

[Zebra Airforce]

If it's bigger it's a one pixel border bigger.

Feels like five, maybe six pixels to me.

@BulletMagnet
The TLB in Mushihime-sama has some patterns that can be almost entirely unavoidable. Does that mean that it's a badly designed game as well?

[BulletMagnet]

The TLB in Mushihime-sama has some patterns that can be almost entirely unavoidable. Does that mean that it's a badly designed game as well?

I haven't played enough of the TLB to speak from experience, but I would be interested in someone who's watched a superplay of it informing me/us of whether the "top" players find it possible to make it through the Dreaded Screen O' Purple, or whether it's a "hope you have enough lives left" affair no matter how good you are. If it's the latter, then I'd certainly say that that boss, at least, was badly designed (or non-designed, if you will) - the whole idea behind a decent shmup (imo at least) is that, theoretically, you can make it through without smart bombs/shields/etc., and that the former are there just to offset your mistakes. Once this "cushion" becomes a necessity rather than a "gift," the acceptable bounds of credit munching have been passed.

[DJ Incompetent]

Check yourself in the green stuff if you could. I am pessimistic.

Code: Select all

   Player             Team                     Score     Route         Version

 1.sikraiken          Team Apes             12,569,460   ABDGKPZ'(ALL) (MAME)
 2.Smraedis           namakoteam            11,915,390   ABDGLQV (ALL)
 3.STG                namakoteam            11,818,200   ABDGLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 4.The Coop           Oldschoolers          11,584,000   ABDGLQV (ALL) (Saturn)
 5.Icarus             namakoteam            11,388,320   ABDGLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 6.mikwuyma           Team SDA              11,327,660   ACEHLQV (ALL) (MAME) 
 7.Fu                 Team France           11,146,040   ABEHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 8.zinger             Team Sweden           11'115'590   ABDGLQV (ALL) (Raine)
 9.DMC                Team Sweden           10,998,850   ABDGLQV (ALL) (Raine)
 10.shoe-sama         Team Downrank         10,778,100   ABDGLQV (ALL) 
 11.coffeejoerx       Pelé Shooting Team    10,655,640   ABDGLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 12.Javel             Team Sweden           10,583,370   ABDGLQV (ALL) 
 13.lowemark          Team Sweden           10'361'790   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 14.Enhasa            Team SDA              10,237,440   ACEHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 15.freddiebamboo     namakoteam            10,122,070   ABDGLQV (ALL)
 16.CRI               Sturmvogel            10,029,880   ABDGLQV (ALL) (Raine)
 17.Redsun            Pelé Shooting Team     9,915,100   ACFJNSY (ALL) (MAME)
 18.Shatterhand       Pele Shooting Team     9,649,840   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 19.DEL               namakoteam             9,534,820   ABDGLQV (ALL)
 20.nZero             Drink & Fly            9,455,330   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME) 
 21.G19               Underdogs              9,393,120   ABDGLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 22.Macaw             Cyber City Team        9,340,080   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 23.DarkWolf7         Turbo Team             9,303,780   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 24.stanski           Team SDA               9,278,530   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME) 
 25.Twiddle           Turbo Team             9,077,920   ABDHLQV (...) (MAME)
 26.Sword             IWST                   9,069,600   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 27.Ayanami           Great Lakes Avengers   9,057,340   ABDHLQV (ALL) 
 28.RyanDG            Drink & Fly            9,010,120   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME) 
 29.Davey             Great Lakes Avengers   8,881,420   ABDHLQV (ALL) 
 30.DJ Incompetent    Drink & Fly            8,795,670   ABDGLQV (ALL) 
 31.Skyrandia         Cyber City Team        8,781,050   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 32.Kiken             Drink & Fly            8,678,920   ABDGLQV (ALL) (Saturn)
 33.SFKhoa            Team Downrank          8,651,140   ABDGLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 34.ED-057            Oldschoolers           8,643,430   ABEHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 35.CIT               Sturmvogel             8,607,730   ABDGKPV (ALL) (Saturn)
 36.Kyper             Lets Destroy STGT07    8,550,000   ABDGKPZ'(ALL) (MAME)
 37.Zakk              Drink & Fly            8,280,330   ABDGLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 38.Herr Schatten     Oldschoolers           8,119,170   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 39.viniciusvbf       Pelé Shooting Team     7,792,800   ABELHQV (ALL) (MAME)
 40.Infintium         The Underdogs          7,616,250   ABDGLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 41.PlasmaBlooD       Sturmvogel             7'607'640   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 42.moozooh           Team SDA               7,566,700   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 43.Ghegs             Team Downrank          7,101,470   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 44.bsidwell          Team SDA               7,068,790   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 45.Rob               Turbo Team             6,881,600   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 46.SleepersEye       Team SDA               6,874,350   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 47.ArcticXC          IWST                   6,376,230   ABDGLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 48.msm               Underdogs              6,369,660   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME) 
 49.neo               Team France            6,295,180   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 50.DirtyMonk         California Dudez       6,025,490   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 51.P_HAT             Team Downrank          6,009,140   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 52.szycag            Team Downrank          5,735,770   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 53.Zebra Airforce    California Dudez       5,262,490   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME)
 54.Keade             Team France            5,129,080   XXXXXXX (ALL)
 55.crithit5000       Lets Destroy STGT07    4,758,300   ACFINSY (ALL) (MAME)
 56.Tain              Lets Destroy STGT07    4,559,130   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME) 
 57.Acid King         Drink & Fly            4,520,240   ABDGLRW (ALL) (MAME)
 58.Arvandor          Team Fremont           4,512,900   ABDHLQV (ALL)
 59.Shocky            Oldschoolers           4,308,940   ABDHLQV (ALL) 
 60.NRS               Team Loser             4,168,050   ABDHLQV (ALL) (MAME) 
 61.Squirrel          Lets Destroy STGT07    3,396,010   ABDHLQV (ALL) 
 62.Sonic R           Great Lakes Avengers   3,064,010   ABDGKQV       (Saturn)
 63.Malcolm           Drink & Fly            3,043,750   ABDHLQV       (MAME)
 64.ayuh              Team Lurker            3,018,850   ABDHLQV       (MAME)
 65.maxi              Pele Shooting Team     2.882.060   ACEI          (Saturn)
 66.RotateMe          Sturmvogel             2,826,570   ABDGLQ        (MAME)
 67.Boric             Team Fremont           2,660,420   ABDHLQ         
 68.1up               Team Downrank          2,648,860   ABEIM         (MAME)
 69.Dave_K            California Dudez       2,611,110   ABDHLQ        (MAME)
 70.Rorschach         Pele Shoting Team      2,585,420                 (MAME)
 71.Zigfried          Turbo Team             2,560,600   ACEIN         (PS2/TM)
 72.elbarto           namakoteam             2,539,410   ABDGK         (PS2/TM)
 73.Aleanil           Team Lurker            2,490,420   ABDGL         (MAME)
 74.Turrican          Oldschoolers           2.421.520   ABDHM         (PS2/TL2 UK)
 75.joystickchris     Team Fremont           2'196'310   ACFJO         (MAME)
 76.Ozymandiaz1260    California Dudez       2,127,560   ABDHL         (MAME)
 77.Sylver            IWST                   2,070,180   ABDG          (MAME)
 78.Pirate1019        Team Loser             2,008,570   ABDG          (MAME)
 79.NeoZeed_RP        Retro Passion UK       1,876,670   ACFJ          (MAME)
 80.Kingbuzzo         IWST                   1,844,570   ABEI          (MAME) 
 81.BulletMagnet      Team Loser             1,712,970   ABDG          (PS2/TM)
 82.KennyMan666       Team Sweden            1,689,770   ABDG          (PC)
 83.Mikoto            Team Sweden            1,541,190   ABDH          (MAME)
 84.BrianC            Oldschoolers           1,482,300   ABDH          (PS2/TL2)
 85.madroXounds       Retro Passion UK       1'397'090   ABDH          (MAME)
 86.themachinist      Team Lurker            1,376,780   ABDH          (MAME)
 87.Carnivol          Team Apes              1.178.370   ABDG          (MAME)
 88.Slagfart          Cyber City Team           26,600   A             (MAME)
lol.BBH               Team Milky             9,999,990   Round 56      (MAME)

Bloodflowers is gonna shut shit down soon, so I'm gonna work on the new shortlist before putting out results. Apologies.
@Firestorm, you can post your unofficial goods if you wish. I like a double-check runner anyway

maxi's score
It looked way too much like a mistaken zero, so I threw up the game and played your route four times, two @auto 1 and two @auto 6. Three of the four attempts I passed through 1,400,000 mark at different parts of the I stage, one being at the boss (the missed attempt arriving w/1,500,000). Based on this, lack of snapshot, and the fact that there are no commas separating the score, I conclude that it is far more plausible an extra zero was added to the score by mistake instead of achieving a glitch of multiplying the score by 10.

Nobody's calling anybody a liar in this case and Maxi's explanation seems genuine, but I'm gonna side with my research on this, so maxi's 2mil score will be used.

In the future, when weird shit like that happens again, just leave the game running with your name entered as long as it takes to find a digital camera.

No damaged reps, no drama. We cool. Just understand where I'm coming from on this.

One time when playing original Legend of Zelda, I thought I found a way to break the 255 rupee cap. I just kept collecting extra rupees so I could find out how high I could go but remembered I wanted the blue ring. For some reason, the game wouldn't let me buy it. I was so pissed and played for another 15 minutes wondering if my game was defective then I realized I only had 225 rupees the whole time...

so..yeah...


congrats to nZero, RyanDG, Ayanami, and Davey for takin' me to school