OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

[cr4zymanz0r]

The scanlines for linedoubled 480p content are meant for "true" 480p content. Hence you end up with 480 scanlines instead of 240. But I agree that "pre-doubled" 240p content should be taken into consideration and a switch made available to toggle between 240 and 480 scanlines in software.

Not to be rude, but that doesn't make any sense. Unless there's some weird case I'm unaware of, native 480p would have never had scanlines in the first place to be emulated when line doubled. Also, The amount of scanlines on OSSC 480p passthrough (1x) is still 'correct' as if considered for art that was originally 240p, so it seems weird that it (apparently) doubles the amount of scanlines with line 2x-ing it.

If there is some legitimate reason for the 'doubled-up' scanlines then I agree that there would be a way to switch between 240 and 480 scanlines.
(random note: with the scaling on some displays the doubled up thin scanlines end up getting blended to where it looks like all you're doing is darkening the screen.)

[Fudoh]

native 480p would have never had scanlines in the first place

I would say you haven't seen 480p on a good CRT in a very long time. 480p on a proper PC monitor or a 31khz capable BVM gives you quite obvious scanlines.

Also, The amount of scanlines on OSSC 480p passthrough (1x) is still 'correct' as if considered for art that was originally 240p, so it seems weird that it

yes, because that feature was always meant for predoubled 240p content.

[cr4zymanz0r]

I would say you haven't seen 480p on a good CRT in a very long time. 480p on a proper PC monitor or a 31khz capable BVM gives you quite obvious scanlines.

Now I'm confused. You tend to know your stuff pretty well, so I doubt you're making stuff up. I am rarely using 480p on a CRT display but I just never recall black/dark scanlines like you'd see with 240p. If they're there they must be EXTREMELY fine pitched. Only 480p capable CRT display I have currently is a PVM 14L5. Maybe i'll have to hook a 480p source to it when I'm home and stare really close to the screen.

[Fudoh]

Twice as fine as your usual 240p ones, but not invisible. These are 480p scanlines: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/andora_slg.jpg (sorry that I don't have a better picture right now)

14" (13" visible) for 480p is probably a bit too small to get proper scanlines, but on a 29" set they're as obvious as the 240p ones on your PVM.

[austin532]

I'm happy to announce that I'm now a new member of the OSSC club but I'm having some issues. I can not seem to get 3x, 4x, or 5x to work. I know for sure my tv supports multiple PC modes. I have a Sony KDL40W600B which I know Sony's are very picky. Here are the supported modes from the manual.

640 x 480, 31.5 kHz/60 Hz
800 x 600, 37.9 kHz/60 Hz
1024 x 768, 48.4 kHz/60 Hz
1280 x 768, 47.4 kHz/60 Hz and 47.8 kHz/60 Hz
1360 x 768, 47.7 kHz/60 Hz
1280 x 1024, 64.0 kHz/60 Hz (Full HD model only)
1920 x 1080, 67.5 kHz/60 Hz (Full HD model only)*
* The 1080p timing, when applied to the HDMI input, will be treated as a
video timing and not a PC timing. This will affect the [Preferences] and
[Picture & Display] settings. To view PC content, set [Scene Select] to
[Graphics], [Wide Mode] to [Full], and [Display Area] to [Full Pixel].
([Display Area] is configurable only when [Auto Display Area] is set to
[Off].)

And here are some other PC modes that it supports.

848 x 480 (Non recommended display prompt)
1280 x 960
1600 x 1200 (Non recommended display prompt)
1440 x 900 (Non recommended display prompt)
1680 x 1050 (Non recommended display prompt)

Something else I've noticed is when playing NES there is this single flashing black line on the screen and the area where it's happening is wobbly. Is it some kind of sync issue? Is it because the system is slightly higher then 60hz? I know for sure it's not the system, rgb cable, or scart switch as those work fine.

I'm still trying to figure this device out. It can be very confusing compared to using the Framemeister. If you have any tips I would gladly appreciate it.

[Xyga]

AFAIK the full hd Sony W series still don't support 3x, 4x, 5x from the OSSC without the assistance of an external processor like a DVDO.

Big disappointment, I know.

[austin532]

I can see it not supporting 3x which is an oddball resolution of 960 x 720 but my tv clearly supports 4x and 5x which is 1280 x 960 and 1600 x 1200. Am I missing something important here?

I know there are some workarounds that Harrumph and others have tried if you change some of the settings. Surely there has to be a way?

[Smashbro29]

How badly does this clash with capture cards like the BlackMagic Intensity Pro 4k? That thing is picky and I imagine this isn't gonna fly with it.

[Xyga]

I can see it not supporting 3x which is an oddball resolution of 960 x 720 but my tv clearly supports 4x and 5x which is 1280 x 960 and 1600 x 1200. Am I missing something important here?

I know there are some workarounds that Harrumph and others have tried if you change some of the settings. Surely there has to be a way?

It' not just resolution, the Sony sets of that time are extremely picky with anything beyond VGA and 480p, and what comes from the OSSC in those modes isn't pristine 60Hz from a computer. The OSSC is like that, and the W are like that.

If working workaround settings exist, we haven't found any yet.

[Harrumph]

Hey Austin, I saw your PM but didn't have time to reply before, so I'll just write here now.
As Xyga already stated, the W series Sony's are notorious for their inflexible input requirements in regards to the OSSC. BlockABoots on vgp forums with a very similar Sony set (42W653A) also reported he tried with the 256 trick and it didn't work, so unfortunately I think you're pretty much out of luck.
Still, considering the large list of compatible PC modes, it is a bit baffling it wouldn't work in x3 or x4 (with the 256 vertical trick). Total lines and horizontal frequencies seem to be "close enough" for a lot of other displays.

The thing about the OSSC is that it cannot adjust the horizontal frequency as this is dependent on total lines and vertical frequency. With the line multiplication, you get a fixed number of output lines, and it will not match exactly the VESA/CEA specs. (Additionally, the V.Freq of retro consoles are slightly off spec most of the time, although I think that is actually a lesser factor for most displays.)

For example, Gamecube with GBI-LL outputs 263 lines and H.Freq of 15.73 kHz (and V. Freq 59.82Hz). So in Lx3 the output is 789 lines and 47.2 kHz. The line count for VESA 1024x768 (with reduced blanking) is 490 and H.Freq 47.3. Clearly, very close to the actual output. BUT in the case of W series Sony and a bunch of other TVs, not close enough...
Also, note how the 789 line output is way over the CEA spec for 720p (750 lines). This is probably why on some TVs, the "normal" Lx3 (using 240 active x3 = 720) does not work, while adjusting this to 256x3 = 768 can work.

For Lx4, the output is 1052 lines and 62.9 kHz. VESA 1280x1024 (reduced blanking) spec states 1054 lines and 63.1 kHz. Again, close enough for some displays, not for others.

And on your W series specs (seems identical to that other vgp poster):

1024 x 768, 48.4 kHz/60 Hz
[...]
1280 x 1024, 64.0 kHz/60 Hz

It's quite mysterious because those H.Frequencies actually doesn't match the VESA spec, they are ~1kHz higher in both cases....

[Blair]

I just sold my Edge Green.

Hopefully my DUO will line double 480p.

a conversation with another user on on here (cfx) seems to indicate that the duo is heavily based on the green, so in theory whatever works on the edge green should work on the duo.

I would say you haven't seen 480p on a good CRT in a very long time. 480p on a proper PC monitor or a 31khz capable BVM gives you quite obvious scanlines.

Now I'm confused. You tend to know your stuff pretty well, so I doubt you're making stuff up. I am rarely using 480p on a CRT display but I just never recall black/dark scanlines like you'd see with 240p. If they're there they must be EXTREMELY fine pitched. Only 480p capable CRT display I have currently is a PVM 14L5. Maybe i'll have to hook a 480p source to it when I'm home and stare really close to the screen.

I can confirm what Fudoh has observed. here some shots of my own crt in 480p. (you might have to get close to the screen, but 480p does produce scanlines).

Spoiler

480p style scanlines

[cr4zymanz0r]

I can confirm what Fudoh has observed. here some shots of my own crt in 480p. (you might have to get close to the screen, but 480p does produce scanlines).

Yeah, I guess I just never got that close to the screen. That and most of my extensive 480p CRT days were before I become a retro videophile.
I did find a workaround for 240p style scanlines on line doubled 480p/512p. I had a SLG-3000 sitting around, so I have my DC and X68000 VGA signals going through that first before going to the X68000. Worked better than I expected , but hopefully there'll be a native option added to the OSSC at some point. Since my SLG-3000 is VGA only this still doesn't let me have 240p style scanlines on line doubled 480p from GC/PS2/Xbox, but there's barely any games on those where I'd be trying to do that.

[citrus3000psi]

a conversation with another user on on here (cfx) seems to indicate that the duo is heavily based on the green, so in theory whatever works on the edge green should work on the duo.

I have some hope. I'll need to test it out when I have time.

[ZellSF]

How badly does this clash with capture cards like the BlackMagic Intensity Pro 4k? That thing is picky and I imagine this isn't gonna fly with it.

I tried and couldn't get my Saturn or SNES working. To test if the connection worked I connected a PS2 (very standard signal) and it worked fine. I couldn't do any more than very limited testing, but based on that I wouldn't expect great things..

Oddly enough it's not the refresh rates it has a problem with, when I get my DVDO VP50 to resize the image without doing framerate conversion, the card accepts that just fine.

[jandrogo]

native 480p would have never had scanlines in the first place

I would say you haven't seen 480p on a good CRT in a very long time. 480p on a proper PC monitor or a 31khz capable BVM gives you quite obvious scanlines.

What Fudoh said. This is Shikigami no Shiro II dreamcast version feeding 480p to a Eizo-Nanao 21" PC CRT. I love and miss that monitor

[awe444]

The scanlines for linedoubled 480p content are meant for "true" 480p content. Hence you end up with 480 scanlines instead of 240. But I agree that "pre-doubled" 240p content should be taken into consideration and a switch made available to toggle between 240 and 480 scanlines in software.

Not to be rude, but that doesn't make any sense. Unless there's some weird case I'm unaware of, native 480p would have never had scanlines in the first place to be emulated when line doubled. Also, The amount of scanlines on OSSC 480p passthrough (1x) is still 'correct' as if considered for art that was originally 240p, so it seems weird that it (apparently) doubles the amount of scanlines with line 2x-ing it.

If there is some legitimate reason for the 'doubled-up' scanlines then I agree that there would be a way to switch between 240 and 480 scanlines.
(random note: with the scaling on some displays the doubled up thin scanlines end up getting blended to where it looks like all you're doing is darkening the screen.)

For any of the OSSC's 960p output modes (240p4x or 480p2x) it makes sense to think of the output lines in groups of four. My hope is that in a future firmware, all four lines would be individually configurable as either on (displayed) or off (black/masked). With this functionality you'd be able to get:

"480p scanlines" -- on,off,on,off
"240p thick scanlines"-- on,on,off,off
"240p thin scanlines" -- on,on,on,off

The last of these ("240p thin scanlines") would be the brightest possible way of displaying 240p4x with scanlines.

[austin532]

Hey Austin, I saw your PM but didn't have time to reply before, so I'll just write here now.
As Xyga already stated, the W series Sony's are notorious for their inflexible input requirements in regards to the OSSC. BlockABoots on vgp forums with a very similar Sony set (42W653A) also reported he tried with the 256 trick and it didn't work, so unfortunately I think you're pretty much out of luck.
Still, considering the large list of compatible PC modes, it is a bit baffling it wouldn't work in x3 or x4 (with the 256 vertical trick). Total lines and horizontal frequencies seem to be "close enough" for a lot of other displays.

The thing about the OSSC is that it cannot adjust the horizontal frequency as this is dependent on total lines and vertical frequency. With the line multiplication, you get a fixed number of output lines, and it will not match exactly the VESA/CEA specs. (Additionally, the V.Freq of retro consoles are slightly off spec most of the time, although I think that is actually a lesser factor for most displays.)

For example, Gamecube with GBI-LL outputs 263 lines and H.Freq of 15.73 kHz (and V. Freq 59.82Hz). So in Lx3 the output is 789 lines and 47.2 kHz. The line count for VESA 1024x768 (with reduced blanking) is 490 and H.Freq 47.3. Clearly, very close to the actual output. BUT in the case of W series Sony and a bunch of other TVs, not close enough...
Also, note how the 789 line output is way over the CEA spec for 720p (750 lines). This is probably why on some TVs, the "normal" Lx3 (using 240 active x3 = 720) does not work, while adjusting this to 256x3 = 768 can work.

For Lx4, the output is 1052 lines and 62.9 kHz. VESA 1280x1024 (reduced blanking) spec states 1054 lines and 63.1 kHz. Again, close enough for some displays, not for others.

And on your W series specs (seems identical to that other vgp poster):

1024 x 768, 48.4 kHz/60 Hz
[...]
1280 x 1024, 64.0 kHz/60 Hz

It's quite mysterious because those H.Frequencies actually doesn't match the VESA spec, they are ~1kHz higher in both cases....

Murphy's Law strikes again. That really blows. You can tell it's really close to spec to as the screen is black which usually means it's recognizing the signal but doesn't know how to display it properly.

Looks like I have to add yet ANOTHER device to my already overcrowded setup. Is the DVDO the best route?

[orange808]

Looks like I have to add yet ANOTHER device to my already overcrowded setup. Is the DVDO the best route?

It's the fastest option. There are some other processors out there that publish misleading "processing delay" numbers that do not take the frame buffer into account.

That means they assume that the initial ~18ms to capture and process the frame buffer isn't "lag".

Of course, we all know that's bullshit.

Bottom line: you won't beat the DVDO on latency. Even my somewhat flaky DVDO is faster than the other options.

[austin532]

Which one would you say is the best? Meaning next to no lag and optimal picture quality?

[fafangus]

Hey ya !!
Just grabbed a low serial aes (2k)
Here what it done with the 1200p's OSSC :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK4ULMiOigo&t=
Just magic !!

[Xyga]

Which one would you say is the best? Meaning next to no lag and optimal picture quality?

. VP 50 Pro is the best picture quality-wise, with it you can even fine-adjust the scaling quality and interpolation sharpness independently, on all sources, it's a top-tier processor, but it's expensive (~400?)
. VP 50 or VP 30 will do and can be had for about half that.
. The older iScan HD+ may have slightly lower picture quality overall but can double as a downscaler you can use on a CRT. It's also cheaper.

All are supposed to come with a working power brick and remote. Not sure the HD+ has one though.

The EDGE might have become compatible with most modes from the OSSC as Blair said, but we don't know for the other VP's and HD+ yet (I haven't had time to perform tests myself w/ the Pro and 30 sorry, maybe later this month)
The reason I recommend the VP series and not the EDGE is that the latter doesn't guarantee low lag with all sources.

There's also the option of getting a new TV...

[austin532]

Or I could just stick with a CRT for 240p/480i material and not have to worry about anything.

Seriously though if I do get a new tv it will be OLED for sure.

[Eretro86]

Hi I have a few queries regarding Street Fighter games and how they perform with the OSSC.

I have a few setups which I could potentially use the OSSC for they are:

- Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo - GroovyMame - 240p - Scart

- Street Fighter Alpha Anthology - PS2 - 480p - Scart

- Street Fighter Third Strike XBOX 360 - 720p - VGA

From what I understand the OSSC is able to perform some kind of aspect correction to display close to 4:3. I was just wondering is it able to display exactly 4:3 for line doubled 240p and pass through 480p (with scanline overlay)?

I would also be interested to see what third strike on the 360 looks like at 720p pass through with scanline overlay. If anyone is able to share some photos it would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[citrus3000psi]

Has anybody confirmed 960p (480p LineX2) with a DVDO Duo? Its been confirmed that the VP50 Pro does NOT work?

[Xyga]

Since the new firmware? nope, no news. regarding the Pro I haven't been able to find the time to try yet, all my gear's still packaged in a post-home-renovation chaos, surely someone will test and report before I do.

[citrus3000psi]

Since the new firmware? nope, no news. regarding the Pro I haven't been able to find the time to try yet, all my gear's still packaged in a post-home-renovation chaos, surely someone will test and report before I do.

There is new firmware? I thought all these products have been considered legacy products for quite some time.

I'm under the assumption, all my boxes have the latest firmware. I may try and see what the DUO can do, as I've never tried the OSSC through it.

[Xyga]

I mean the OSSC's firmware, it seems it has increased the compatibility with DVDO processors.

[citrus3000psi]

I mean the OSSC's firmware, it seems it has increased the compatibility with DVDO processors.

Oh, duh. Awesome news. I will do a test tonight...

[Smashbro29]

How badly does this clash with capture cards like the BlackMagic Intensity Pro 4k? That thing is picky and I imagine this isn't gonna fly with it.

I tried and couldn't get my Saturn or SNES working. To test if the connection worked I connected a PS2 (very standard signal) and it worked fine. I couldn't do any more than very limited testing, but based on that I wouldn't expect great things..

Oddly enough it's not the refresh rates it has a problem with, when I get my DVDO VP50 to resize the image without doing framerate conversion, the card accepts that just fine.

So it's not the framerate? It's like... the size of the image? That's so weird. I'd love to see more testing on it to be honest.

[citrus3000psi]

Did some testing tonight.

WiiU component @480p line2x
Duo works
Vp50pro fail

Snes mini rgb @240p:
Duo x3/x4/x5 works in dvi mode.
***5x requires timing adjustments to keep stable image even in dvi mode.
***hdmi mode might work with some timing adjustments but I didn't try.

Vp50pro x3/x5 works in hdmi mode.