Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[BIL]

I might have to give the GB Rockmen a look. Inherently disinterested in the traditional series, but I adore GB Bionic Commando to such an extent, it feels wrong not to try them. I have a policy with the FC Rockmen, basically I play Lickle instead. ^_~

kiyoshi worked on cocoron, too. i brought him up in my lickle article, i believe. he really did some amazing stuff for the famicom :O i always wondered how he got around to end up working on metal storm, though. it doesn't fit his left-capcom-for-sur-de-wave history, and metal storm was the same year as cocoron and before lickle, so he must have been freelancing or something. did he have some friends at irem?

Or Tamtex, perhaps. Yet another splinter to keep track of, haha.

holy diver could really also do with some multiplexing. the tower boss is by far the biggest reason i've still not attempted a 1cc of that game. fixing that control quirk and adding in some multiplexing coding doesn't seem like a terribly difficult task, at least saying it out loud. if only someone with programming chops would do a quick hack...

Holy Diver's input drops are legitimately more than a quirk. In a game this demanding they're an absolute unqualified disaster. Add the blinding flicker and Golden Babylon's fast, random, 1HKO-tendency shots, and that boss becomes a nexus of bullshit like nothing else I've ever dealt with in a 2D action game. You can notice in my 1LC that I absorb the majority of its flak, until I'm down to 1HP and forced to dodge. It's simply not worth evading unless you're forced to, with the input and graphic glitches liable to pounce at any moment. Vanguard takes a similar tack in his 1LC, if I recall right. Look forward to the similarly insane Genocide Chamber (st6), an ordeal only narrowly beaten to the infernal throne by GB.

I still genuinely like HD, and get some twisted, spergy satisfaction knowing I've banished it to the shelf where it can sit in mute, minty malevolence - but god fucking damn, was I left harbouring some dismay/contempt for its devs. As action game designers they were either totally incompetent, or completely sadistic (or perhaps really rushed, but to fail at such a primordial level... I can't believe it). Either way they write a hardcore action cheque they simply cannot cash. It's also horribly alluring in its grandeur, of course, providing maybe the best war stories / shell shock of the console. Beware. Fuck Mortal Kombat or DOOM or whatever, this is Luciferous game design.

TOP SECRET NO-MISS ENDING SEQUENCE

Spoiler

Sin after sin I have endured
Yet the wounds I bear are the wounds of love ♫

[Squire Grooktook]

Fun fact : he's also subscribed to me! althought I don't publish any of my music on Youtube Guess he likes my longplays!

Simiarly, Treasure.Co LTD and a few doujin devs are subscribed to my shmup dev diary on twitter. I'm sure it's just some intern or bot that subcribes everything stg/game dev related, but it's still fun ^_^

[kitten]

I might have to give the GB Rockmen a look. Inherently disinterested in the traditional series, but I adore GB Bionic Commando to such an extent, it feels wrong not to try them. I have a policy with the FC Rockmen, basically I play Lickle instead. ^_~

keep in mind that II was done by a different group, entirely, and released within just a few months of the first game. i believe it was inafune who said that he thought the developers of the first one were so good he wanted them to keep doing it, which, aside from the first legends and possibly powered up, is maybe the only good he ever did for the franchise. II is frankly totally abysmal, and that it seemed to share similar success to the first game and more success than the later three is just depressing. it really gets to me how the consumer mentality for the game boy was "oh boy i can play portable versions of better home games" and it led to so many ignored sequels and original titles.

you might particularly enjoy RMWIII, which, in my opinion, is the most difficult out of the entire 8-bit catalogue of rockman games (provided you don't use energy tanks, which, imo, you never should in an 8-bit rockman game). minakuchi's pacing of rockman is notably different from the fc games, featuring more demanding obstacles and a stop-and-go kind of design (most obvious in the first entry) that doesn't feel as smooth as the famicom games, but provides a more mechanical and deliberate kind of pace. due to the game boy's smaller resolution screen, you can really feel them trying to squeeze every bit of space out of each screen that they can.

they also do the thing some of the later games in the rockman series did where you fight a group of 4 robot masters, do an intermediary stage (usually just a boss), and then do another group of 4, allowing for a slightly better and more interesting difficulty curve. i've got a review of the fifth game over here, but i wouldn't be terribly surprised if it ends up being your least favorite of the minakuchi 4 due to its lower difficulty. imho, i think mega man is better with a slightly more easygoing type of design because i don't think a large health bar and random energy drops go well with extremely tightly refined action, but you might appreciate the earlier game's higher difficulty despite the rockiness of how they mesh with those elements. i feel like you'll at least definitely be able to tell the same people made bionic commando gb, anyway (one of my several 4/4 star gb games - i adore that little console!).

i've got reviews for the earlier games, too, if you want to read them, but i wrote them i believe more than 5 years back and they're not as good of reads.



i remember when i made this cool little pixel art game boy and put a mettaur sprite in there for those articles! ain't it cute ;3

Or Tamtex, perhaps. Yet another splinter to keep track of, haha.

ay ;___; boy, it's hard to keep up with this shit

You can notice in my 1LC that I absorb the majority of its flak, until I'm down to 1HP and forced to dodge. It's simply not worth evading unless you're forced to, with the input and graphic glitches liable to pounce at any moment.

iirc, doesn't funkdoc do a similar thing in his runs? i think you can only take hits as the platform is descending... i think? ugh, man, i don't want to think about that boss right now, i'll get flashbacks

i'll have to watch your run, sometime, perhaps whenever i get back around to playing it, again.

Beware. Fuck Mortal Kombat or DOOM or whatever, this is Luciferous game design.

i still like it, too, and have even replayed it just for fun, but yeah, i agree, it's got some serious problems. i still want to eventually get a no miss or at least 1cc under my belt, but i shudder thinking about how agonizing the practice would be. i believe on my last run i didn't burn through all toooooo many continues, but i was still nowhere near close to getting it down and golden babylon, especially, was a total fucking crapshoot. i don't even want to think of getting through that game on one life or credit only to have it ended by those stupid fucking floating grapes on that stretch just before the final boss, either. man, the control quirk (failure/etc. - i don't disagree that it's unforgivable, i just think it's easiest to label it a quirk) REALLY comes out as agonizing during that portion.

this and metal storm loop 2 honestly blow shit like battletoads or gimmick (both also frequently cited as "the hardest" nes games) out of the water when it comes to difficulty, imho. i would probably rank metal storm loop 2 as harder to just initially get through, but significantly easier to 1cc/no miss because it's a very mechanically reliable and memorization-heavy game. barring some godforsaken kusoge and truly unplayable garbage, holy diver is probably what i would gauge as the hardest 1cc/no miss on the entire famicom. that or maybe cobra triangle, but i've hardly played that and it's total shit, like all rareware games

[BIL]

Excellent, thanks for the Rockman GB info! Will get around to them, gradually...

iirc, doesn't funkdoc do a similar thing in his runs? i think you can only take hits as the platform is descending... i think?

Not quite sure about funkdoc's techniques - he's far more skilled than I am, so that may well be a thing.

But where my runs are concerned, nah, the vertical movement is mostly irrelevant - the critical thing is your proximity to the edge. If you're not at the absolute threshold of falling, you're liable to get 1HKO blasted backward into the pit. The lower, horizontally-moving platform can provide an emergency save if you push too far and fall over the edge, so I'll generally be more aggressive when it's nearby... but yeah, the main thing is to not get instakilled. I liken it to a boxer in a clinch, weathering painful but endurable body blows to avoid a knockout hook. A boxer with severe mobility and eyesight issues. >_>

I actually fall off the ledge to would-be death in my 1LC run, only to get smacked back onto the platform by a bullet I couldn't see. I'd already taken two needless hits in the previous room, and my soul was a fucking black husk of contempt by this point, so I just started dodging without a second thought. Didn't even notice GB had given an uncharacteristic helping hand until Vanguard pointed it out to me like a week later! It's a nasty game.

this and metal storm loop 2 honestly blow shit like battletoads or gimmick (both also frequently cited as "the hardest" nes games) out of the water when it comes to difficulty, imho. i would probably rank metal storm loop 2 as harder to just initially get through, but significantly easier to 1cc/no miss because it's a very mechanically reliable and memorization-heavy game.

There probably isn't much between them, but I would say Metal Storm is the harder 1CC (meaning both loops), since you have far fewer lives, and it's easier to lose them with its 2hit deaths and noticeably tighter execution. Holy Diver is actually very generous with resources, both extends and the huge upgrades to character HP/MP over its course. Provided you get consistent at Golden Babylon (the game's major life sapper), it's quite possible to reach stage 6 with a huge extend stock for the now massively tougher, better-armed Randy, and gradually batter the final barricade down from there. (Vanguard has no need of extra lives in his 1LC, obviously, but he has so many by the end the life counter glitches out, SMB1-style :3 ).

A no-miss, though - HD is much nastier on account of more randomness, way more pits to insta-die in, and of course its horrendously unfair input/flicker issues. MS is something you can get down to a science, albeit an execution-intense one. HD will rip the rug out from under you in a split-second, and in the worst scenario you might see death coming and yet be powerless to avoid it. Just evil.

barring some godforsaken kusoge and truly unplayable garbage, holy diver is probably what i would gauge as the hardest 1cc/no miss on the entire famicom.

Funkdoc has called it the hardest overall, and since he inevitably goes for no-misses, I'd have to agree. It's certainly the hardest I've played in my more limited experience (and yes indeed - obligatory exceptions for lurking kusoge that nobody should play to begin with!).

[kitten]

Excellent, thanks for the Rockman GB info! Will get around to them, gradually...

let me know when you do, of course! the only game i'm eager to have you play, pressingly, is batman: tas gb, which i'm probably outright annoying about at this rate (i'm sorrryyyyy). honestly, i'd take fucking anyone here playing that one through and getting back to me.

i... i really need some other people to play that game ;__; i'm so alone

A boxer with severe mobility and eyesight issues. >_>

lol, yeah

A no-miss, though - HD is much nastier on account of more randomness, way more pits to insta-die in, and of course its horrendously unfair input/flicker issues. MS is something you can get down to a science, albeit an execution-intense one. HD will rip the rug out from under you in a split-second, and in the worst scenario you might see death coming and yet be powerless to avoid it. Just evil.

this is probably more accurate to say, yes. i'm honestly surprised at how often gimmick is suggested to be the hardest clear, but i think i may have become a bit disillusioned with that game's difficulty due to how much i play it. a one life clear is generally just a fun little thing for me to do.

i feel like a game like holy diver isn't just tough, but to many, completely spirit-crushing. despite the game's generous feature to allow you to continue infinitely, it is absolutely not a game to allow you to clear by simply throwing your head at a wall many times - you've got to formulate strategy and get some serious execution down. its a pretty decent mixture of trial-and-error and purely demanding play. even though metal storm is almost unquestionably a significantly more refined game, i think i prefer holy diver's almost abhorrent cruelty just because of all the little things that can go wrong in interesting little ways.

when compared to either of those two games, even gimmick eventually gives way to a persistent-but-terrible player due to its bosses having a tendency to sometimes give you a generous pattern, getting lucky with projectile's bounce arcs (it's not a luck-based system, but to an unskilled player, you will occasionally 'get lucky') and its freakish amount of free & easy extends.

[Sumez]

holy diver could really also do with some multiplexing. the tower boss is by far the biggest reason i've still not attempted a 1cc of that game. fixing that control quirk and adding in some multiplexing coding doesn't seem like a terribly difficult task, at least saying it out loud. if only someone with programming chops would do a quick hack...

I could probably hack Holy Diver to fix its control issues, but it would require spending some time with it, since I'm not sure exactly what it does wrong.
I don't think it's an issue with multiplexing the input, since the only way to read whether a direction was pressed is by polling the state of every single button up until those. Also reading controllers only reveals their current state, so since the error only occurs when you first press the button, and not when you're holding it, the bug would have to be in the game logic. I think it might be a problem with code branches, or the method used to detect "pulse" inputs (since a jump only occurs when you press down the A button, not whenever you're holding it). I'd be surprised if someone didn't already look into this glitch though.

[BrianC]

I found out "I Am Man" is in the Lynx version of Ninja Gaiden. While the first stage where the wrestlers appear is missing from the lynx, the second stage where they appear (stage 5 in arcade, 3 on Lynx) also has the music.

Here is a video with the music

[Sumez]

I'm not sure why Gimmick is even up there in the discussion of hard NES/Famicom games. Sure, it's not a complete walkover, which was actually a huge relief to me, considering its contemporaries in the cute 8-bit platformer stratosphere, and I'm sure that throws a lot of people off guard. But it's not even remotely close to the likes of Holy Diver, or even Battletoads despite that one's difficulty also being a little overrated (that is however a fairly long game that requires a ton of practice and memorization).
What's so great about Gimmick is that even though you've got the game down, know how to beat all the bosses and find all the treasure, there's still so much more you can do with the game, as you keep improving and make your runs smoother and flashier. But beating it is not exactly difficult.

[kitten]

I could probably hack Holy Diver to fix its control issues, but it would require spending some time with it, since I'm not sure exactly what it does wrong.
I don't think it's an issue with multiplexing the input, since the only way to read whether a direction was pressed is by polling the state of every single button up until those. Also reading controllers only reveals their current state, so since the error only occurs when you first press the button, and not when you're holding it, the bug would have to be in the game logic. I think it might be a problem with code branches, or the method used to detect "pulse" inputs (since a jump only occurs when you press down the A button, not whenever you're holding it). I'd be surprised if someone didn't already look into this glitch though.

the input eating has nothing to do with the issue with multiplexing, that's a separate issue that would also need fixing. the game has no multiplexing coded into it, so it just chooses to randomly eat stuff (possibly including health potions, lmao) or stop displaying instant kill bullets during a particularly abrasive boss fight. abusing this is actually key to getting through a few situations, imho.

[kitten]

just played through SHADOW BLASTERS for the genesis (AKA shiten myouou for megadrive). it was apparently developed by cyclone system, who don't really have much of a library of stuff they worked on. i've played wurm/vazolder, but that wasn't exactly particularly good and more of an affably offbeat kinda multi-genre thing. almost pc engine-esque in its type of design with all the stuff it was trying to handle and how cutely it failed to do anything well.

anyway, i totally forgot i owned a cart of this at all and played when searching for something new to play in my library of stuff that might end up being decent. i wanted something kind of breezy and not too hard for a casual sitting, and this seriously hit the spot. it's a side-scrolling action game where you can freely swap between four different characters, and they each have unique life bars and abilities. you start with slow movement and the ability to charge your shot up several levels for a more powerful attack. as you play, various power-ups will pick your speed-up and make it so you can do your most powerful charge without having to charge, at all. each character's shots have different arcs and strength levels, so they come with their own pluses and minuses.

you can choose from any of 6 starting stages until you complete each of them, and then go through 2 additional stages before bizarrely fusing your characters together into some type of god for a really weird and abruptly different (and quite shitty, but also quite easy) boss fight. pacing is very good, levels are short and snappy, and my biggest complaint is needing to switch characters too often to get each of them powered up (which isn't terrible, but definitely a bit of a drag). i liked this quite a bit, though i'd still refrain from calling it "good" - more of a delightful little guilty pleasure. it's not particularly technically competent or interesting, but the basics are fun and you can blow through this really quickly.

if anyone is interesting in emulating it (it won't take more than an hour of your time for two full playthroughs - i no miss'd hard mode with no bomb usage on my 2nd attempt with the game), i've got some tips.

- each powerup looks the same, but is a different color. blue is a speed increase (maxes at 4, indicated by the "J" on your player select screen), red is a bomb increase (max stock is 4 per player), white is a shot power increase (permanently increases where your charge gauge begins at), orange/gold is a 1-point health restore, grey/mottled is a full health restore (what the fuck at this color choice for this one). edit: i think i got blue and red backwards, whoops. why did they do the power-up system this way?

- different characters take damage at different rates. the bottom left character - the big guy - takes the least damage per enemy attack. his attack is also screen-clearing. though he's very weak against bosses, he's probably the most useful character to upgrade first.

- different characters also deal damage at different rates. the top left character - the youngest-looking guy - does an absolutely incredible amount of damage with his charge and can speed kill bosses if you get close to them and abuse the fire rate benefit of rapid shots. he takes high damage from most enemies and is pretty useless during stages, though.

- your health is NOT restored after a boss battle! this is probably the most fun thing about the game and what keeps it interesting. though 1-point health restores seem random (and weirdly rare), i'm pretty sure that full health restores drop from reliable enemies, making choosing who to restore and when a bit more meaningful.

- the final boss will kill you in less than one second if you touch him - you get no i-frames and he deals incredibly rapid damage. always be running away (sometimes moving up to down), and then turn around to fire your long-range shot occasionally. piece of cake.

with all this information, a no miss on your first attempt is very doable and might be a bit of fun! the genesis has a lot of action games like this that feel slightly unrefined, but still a bit of good fun to romp through. the super famicom is kinda lacking in little trashy treasures like this, imo, and it endears me a bit to consoles like the megadrive and pc engine every time i discover some little thing like this.

edit: playing again and it seems like full health power-ups and some other drops are from reliable enemies that only spawn in at certain points. the dark level near the water (i'm forgetting the name atm, it's technically the first stage) has TWO full healths at the end of it and strategically useful to go to as your last selectable stage, imo.

- - - - - - - -

also had saint sword, by the same developer, sitting around. decided to pop it in. holy shit, it is nowhere near as good. horribly short-ranged attack and combat that is 90% standing still and letting enemies walk into your slash and 10% going into a flight form to nail a boss that usually requires standing there and mashing a button, also. every single level is a directionless maze with very poor visual landmarks that has a (sometimes random! oh joy!) enemy drop a key necessary to exit. pretty much miserable, all around.

oh, also, when you beat it, the final boss sends you back to the beginning and makes you do the entire, joyful game again

lmao oh my god the wikipedia article

"Mean Machines gave it a score of 72%, opining "this Rastan-like game could have done with better graphics and sound, but as it stands, Saint Sword is a fairly playable effort."

good to know that 72% means "fairly playable." i'd hate to know what is bad enough to deserve something in the lower 7/10th's.

[BIL]

i feel like a game like holy diver isn't just tough, but to many, completely spirit-crushing. despite the game's generous feature to allow you to continue infinitely, it is absolutely not a game to allow you to clear by simply throwing your head at a wall many times - you've got to formulate strategy and get some serious execution down.

Oh absolutely - was half-asleep when I wrote that post, but just to clarify, "battering the final barricade down" does not mean "demolishing the brick wall with your forehead." That way lies the parched domains of... The Mad. (I LOVE U EDMOND ;-;7 believe me when I say you are a legendary figure in this thread's history ^o^)

In HD, Metal Storm and any other Hard Action Game I care to mention, you've got to use your fuckin brainbox! It's just that in HD, it won't always be enough. 3; You've got to make those deaths count, and weather the glitchy bullshit the best you can.

Another thing I completely forgot to mention - Holy Diver lets you respawn its max HP/MP refills infinitely. So once you know where they are, you can set up a "base camp" of sorts. Totally possible to venture ahead, get beaten down and hurry back to the refill for another attempt. You can't do this in MS, or Castlevania, Ninja Gaiden or frankly most sidescrollers. It's truly a bizarrely generous game, given its sadism elsewhere. It makes me wonder how well its devs understood hardcore action sidescrolling.

I concluded after my 1LC that they weren't considering no-miss play any more than Metroid or Zelda II's devs, and almost certainly didn't intend to create the monster HD becomes in such context. It's absolutely possible (I love single-sessioning the aforementioned Nintendo titles), but the games will inevitably warp and twist a little when death is verboten. With HD being a traditional stage-by-stage affair, perfect survival looks more intended than in a lengthy ARPG/maze explorer... but its mountain of 1UPs feels like much more of a quick fix than, say, NGII's score extends.

Ultimately, HD seems like an attempt to unite Metroid's character building and flexible yet treacherous platforming with arcadey linearity. It's not entirely successful, with those goddamn bugs, but they otherwise came admirably close. Nuke the input/flicker glitches and it'd be among my most beloved FC sidescrollers. Tragically, it must be cast down. Luciferic Action Platform Game.

[kitten]

Oh absolutely - was half-asleep when I wrote that post, but just to clarify, "battering the final barricade down" does not mean "demolishing the brick wall with your forehead."

oh, i know! i was just expounding/agreeing with sentiments i believe you'd already said about the game.

In HD, Metal Storm and any other Hard Action Game I care to mention, you've got to use your fuckin brainbox! It's just that in HD, it won't always be enough. 3;

it is both hilarious and deeply aggravating to me that there is this common perception that super hard action games are all purely about playing until you have them memorized, when i truly believe them to require quicker, cleverer, and more active thinking than most other game genres. that kind of mentality is always particularly funny when coming from run-of-the-mill jRPG enthusiasts, who are somehow under the ridiculous delusion that they're playing thinking men's games. i play action games for the mindful activity and stimulation.

- - - - - -

i went through hard mode on saint sword, btw. both loops, no miss. as far as i can tell, hard mode's 2nd loop is identical to normal's, and the only difference the mode has at all is getting rid of the compass for finding the exit on the first loop (which the 2nd loop does away with in both modes). maybe some enemies took more hits or did more damage or something, but i didn't even notice. this was absolutely not worth my time to do that, but oh well, it's done!


enjoy some dumb ending text. holy heck did they ever misspell "terror"

[BrianC]

They also misspelled Gorgar.

[__SKYe]

They also misspelled Gorgar.

And also "...remember the MENY creatures..."

[Obiwanshinobi]

So the English Wikipedia lists a number of differences between Green Beret FDS port and Rush'n Attack for the NES, but has anyone here played both and found one preferable to another (in any other way than loadings on real hardware)?

[Sumez]

the input eating has nothing to do with the issue with multiplexing, that's a separate issue that would also need fixing. the game has no multiplexing coded into it, so it just chooses to randomly eat stuff (possibly including health potions, lmao) or stop displaying instant kill bullets during a particularly abrasive boss fight. abusing this is actually key to getting through a few situations, imho.

If you're not talking about reading multiple inputs on the same frame, I'm not sure what you mean by multiplexing, sorry.

However, now I'm pretty much set on digging into Holy Diver... Maybe I'll put sime time into it during my upcoming days off.

[BIL]

Just to clarify the exact nature of Holy Diver's control bug, in layman's terms (I'm borderline tech-illiterate, but maybe this'll help others narrow it down): whenever the dpad is engaged OR released, any coinciding B (attack) and A (jump) inputs will not register. So not only will you be screwed on the way in (walk forward while attempting to jump over a pit = no jump, you're dead), but the way out too (walk to a spot, then halt and fire = no shot, you're dead).

It's absolutely lethal, and you need to integrate the compensatory delay into your goddamn bones to stand a chance of consistent survival. I went back to Castlevania and Ninja Gaiden immediately after, as I always do to relax after grappling with tatty sidescrollers... and no exaggeration, I found myself having to actively unlearn the HD workarounds I'd absorbed. Where before I'd plunge into and through frame-tight maneuvers, now I'd hesitate and get owned. "What's that? An unbroken chain of command between player and avatar?! This will revolutionise action gaming!" That was when I truly understood how singularly awful HD's controls are... they'll leave a mark on you.

Having said all this (before, now and likely in the future), I'm not bothered about a patch myself. I've a weird neurotic preference for original code or bust, with un-patchable platforms (newer stuff OTOH, patch away). I find the "set in stone" aspect of older games charming, in both good and ill.

[kitten]

If you're not talking about reading multiple inputs on the same frame, I'm not sure what you mean by multiplexing, sorry.

However, now I'm pretty much set on digging into Holy Diver... Maybe I'll put sime time into it during my upcoming days off.

i'm talking about sprite multiplexing. i don't believe the game has any naturally coded in, so it just randomly decides not to display shit (which makes a certain total bastard of a boss not display its bullets) or won't even spawn stuff while scrolling if it would overload the limit.

i was saying if it had coded multiplexing, these problems wouldn't exist, you'd just be dealing with some flickering sprites rather than having them go totally invisible or refuse to be spawned.

- - - - -

also, RE: my screenshots for saint sword above, apparently that text is exclusive to the jp version (among some other engrish in the game). what an advantage ;P

[__SKYe]

i was saying if it had coded multiplexing, these problems wouldn't exist, you'd just be dealing with some flickering sprites rather than having them go totally invisible or refuse to be spawned.

The invisible (but existing) objects, are much likely a lack of sprite multiplexing indeed.
Flickering sprites would be much better (at least you can tell what's going on), or at least they could have prioritized important sprites.

I don't think the refusal to spawn stuff is due to multiplexing, though.
I would say it's more likely that the game simply won't simply spawn any more objects if more than X are already on-screen.

also, RE: my screenshots for saint sword above, apparently that text is exclusive to the jp version (among some other engrish in the game). what an advantage ;P

Engrish is always fun. I honestly enjoy it (in old games).

[sharc]

i believe that tokai engineering is actually just a shell company for sunsoft, not an actual, distinct entity. there's a common conception that they were an outsourced group, i believe, that isn't actually correct. i may need to call my sharc-alarm to have him butt into the thread and clear this up, as he's the one who initially pointed this out to me (and whose knowledge on sunsoft blows mine out of the water - he's been long constructing an article on them that may never see fruition, but the dude knows his shit. nearly ordered a sun electronics coffee machine just for fun!!!). i believe i once brought tokai up to him and he corrected me saying it was useless to distinguish that name from sunsoft. (EDIT: i am PRETTY SURE this is what happened, putting this note here just in case i'm misremembering and look like a gigantic moron)

the short version is that tokai did make some significant contribution to sunsoft, but it wasn't anything to do with game development. sunsoft's folks seriously just got better over time. you can see it in the interviews with old staffers; tomomi sakai had been in the game industry since the early 80s arcade boom, and you can get a sense of what a close knit bunch the teams were from how naoki kodaka talks about the old days.

the long version - well, i'm workin' on it. there's no direct proof but a ton of circumstantial evidence that i believe makes for a strong case. the article on sunsoft history and tokai is now in its third cycle of me getting 70% done and then deciding it's unsatisfactory and needs more research.

actually, this just gave me an idea for something extremely simple that i hadn't considered before. maybe this is the final push i need to get this goddamn thing finished. :V

[BrianC]

Some of Sunsoft's early games weren't bad either. The Tokaiden firework game and Ikki are both good.

[kitten]

thank you for chiming in, sharc!

Some of Sunsoft's early games weren't bad either. The Tokaiden firework game and Ikki are both good.

they're both good... episodes of game center cx

imo, sunsoft's first decent game was wing of madoola. everything before that was mostly bad, but sometimes charming.

I don't think the refusal to spawn stuff is due to multiplexing, though.
I would say it's more likely that the game simply won't simply spawn any more objects if more than X are already on-screen.

yeah, but the whole point of sprite multiplexing is to increase the on-screen sprite limit, isn't it? if certain things were multiplexed properly, wouldn't it be able to handle the spawning of additional entities?

[trap15]

The object limit is probably close to the sprite limit in order to avoid issues due to lack of multiplexing. If there was multiplexing, the object limit could probably be raised as well.

[BrianC]

While, IMO, they had good games before, Sunsoft first got closer to the graphical and sound quality of their later NES games with Fantasy Zone.

I wonder what the deal was with some of Sunsoft's early US/EU NES exclusives. Maybe a licensing thing and the fact that the light gun wasn't as popular in Japan. Spy Hunter was pretty good, but Xenophobe is terrible and Fester's Quest is very rough around the edges. Freedom Force is the best NES exclusive, though it's interesting that the creator of Mutant League Football, Richard Robbins, helped design the game, despite mostly JP staff working on it. Platoon is a very odd case of a port of a EU designed computer game that wasn't great to begin with from a JP developer.

[__SKYe]

yeah, but the whole point of sprite multiplexing is to increase the on-screen sprite limit, isn't it? if certain things were multiplexed properly, wouldn't it be able to handle the spawning of additional entities?

The object limit is probably close to the sprite limit in order to avoid issues due to lack of multiplexing. If there was multiplexing, the object limit could probably be raised as well.

Good point.
If the object limit is tied to the inability to display more sprites, then both of you are most likely right.
The only other reason I can think of, that wouldn't depend on multiplexing, is if the game's already struggling to update the objects on screen, and having more objects would lead to excessive slowdown (basically, not because of the sprite limit, but rather because of not enough time to update everything, without incurring slowdown).

Though, mind you, I haven't played Holy Diver nearly enough to know if there's slowdown or not, so this is just a wild guess.

[kitten]

While, IMO, they had good games before, Sunsoft first got closer to the graphical and sound quality of their later NES games with Fantasy Zone.

I wonder what the deal was with some of Sunsoft's early US/EU NES exclusives. Maybe a licensing thing and the fact that the light gun wasn't as popular in Japan. Spy Hunter was pretty good, but Xenophobe is terrible and Fester's Quest is very rough around the edges. Freedom Force is the best NES exclusive, though it's interesting that the creator of Mutant League Football, Richard Robbins, helped design the game, despite mostly JP staff working on it. Platoon is a very odd case of a port of a EU designed computer game that wasn't great to begin with from a JP developer.

i feel like fester's quest gets an unfairly bad reputation for no good reason at all. people LOVE blaster master, and it's basically the top-down segments from blaster master done significantly better. it's pretty straight-forward and well-paced, honestly. really weird/shitty power-up system, but it's still not as mean as blaster master's.

is it good? well, no, but it's kind of decent and it handles its licensed property fairly cutely (for truly good top-down sunsoft action, i recommend gremlins 2!). it ain't good, but it sure as heck ain't the abysmal ordeal it is somehow frequently made out to be. i really don't get the big deal with this game's negative reputation, but i personally blame primordial internet dipshit seanbaby - he was basically like a cruder, viler precursor to AVGN and seriously influenced a lot of popular thought about old games that persists into today. i feel like he did to fester's quest what AVGN did to simon's quest.

i feel like a lot of popular opinion on older games is influenced heavily by these e-celebrities and popular thought from back in the time, too. sharc and i were discussing this the other day, as he does a lot of old, archived bbs digging. he was trying to discover why blazing lazers is still, to this day, one of the most celebrated pc engine games when it has so many other better shooters to talk up (like spriggan - another compile game, even!). kinda came to the conclusion that it was 1. because it was early and 2. it was technically impressive and wowed people - lots of sprites, no slowdown. this initial wow factor dug in deep, and it is still (decades later) celebrated loudly today AND for the same reasons it was back then, by people who don't really understand why that should even be impressive. you'll see them saying the same old things, even though they don't have impact, anymore. groupthink really effects a lot of the popular opinion on classics, and it is amazing how persistent and lasting it can be.

edit: https://www.gamefaqs.com/nes/563413-fes ... st/reviews

forgot to mention this, but if you look at the old, negative reviews for fester's quest on gamefaqs, you'll see a lot of similar crude language and gross humor that seanbaby used to use around that time period. this whole urge to find acceptable targets to take a stab at being an internet comedian on was and is just silly.

[Squire Grooktook]

I actually own Fester's Quest (for some reason), and pretty much the only thing that stops me from revisiting it is the 3d maze sections. Otherwise yeah, the top down action is neither particularly bad nor particularly great.

Killer ost and boss designs tho

[BrianC]

Yeah, I didn't say Fester's Quest was bad, just rough around the edges (based off my own impressions of what I have played), though I should give it more of a play. I remember the reception of Ghosts 'n Goblins NES being a bit more favorable before AVGN, though that port is flawed, and not because it's notoriously hard. I have the cart of the game, as well.

[kitten]

brian, you might want to give fester's quest a shot again. i strongly recommend looking up what power-ups do before a play (iirc red=upgrade and blue=downgrade, which is backwards to how you'd usually think of it) and grabbing a controller with autofire, though.

also, yeah, that ghost n goblins port is by micronics. generally, all hate for micronics is deserved

[Sumez]

I always felt I was biased against the NES port of Ghosts 'n Goblins because I'm so used to the arcade version, so I wouldn't comment "objectively" on it. But it's really painful for me to play.