XRGB-3

[Fudoh]

Smeared 480p image: you have disable the LPF function. This makes noise much more visible though.

I understand your need for some kind of converter. Ideally you would use a RGBHV to component transcoder. This said, I never had any big issues with the XRGB/Gefen combo, except that my TV back then didn't like the 1080p signal from the Gefen, so I had to use some PC resolution (1050p I think).

[Laughingman.s9]

Smeared 480p image: you have disable the LPF function. This makes noise much more visible though.

I understand your need for some kind of converter. Ideally you would use a RGBHV to component transcoder. This said, I never had any big issues with the XRGB/Gefen combo, except that my TV back then didn't like the 1080p signal from the Gefen, so I had to use some PC resolution (1050p I think).

I looked for weeks for a good vga to component transcoder that introducest minimal lag since I figured they were both analog signals it would be the best route to take from a processing standpoint but whenever I asked for a recommendation on other forums they always said just get a vga to hdmi solution


My gefen xrgb combo works beautifully...when it works lol

It's mostly a sync issue, dreamcast usually syncs on first try, I run a wii, ps2, pspgo and psx desr 7000 all through a component switchbox and that goes to the d1 input on xrgb. Those systems usually have to be manually reset at least 3x before the gefen will see them

My ps1 and saturn are the only ones that give me trouble, my saturn especially which usually takes anywhere between 3 and 10x of re syncing before i can get an image. I suspect it's because my cables were sync on luma instead of clean sync

In your opinion, would adding an extron rgb 109 in the chain between the xrgb and gefen fix the issue?

[Xyga]

Don't bother with the Gefen or an Extron and get an Audio Authority 9A60 or 9A60A (used if you have patience and want to save a few $)
Even slightly better a Crescendo Systems TC1600 or RTC2200 (but those you will find only used since the manufacturer died last year. TT)
All zero lag.

It's the best way to wire an 'old' XRGB to a TV that lacks a VGA input, especially the Sony W's since those scale component signals very well as Fudoh implied.

The only annoying thing is the Dreamcast VGA image directly through a transcoder is super clean but somehow squeezed.

[Laughingman.s9]

Don't bother with the Gefen or an Extron and get an Audio Authority 9A60 or 9A60A (used if you have patience and want to save a few $)
Even slightly better a Crescendo Systems TC1600 or RTC2200 (but those you will find only used since the manufacturer died last year. TT)
All zero lag.

It's the best way to wire an 'old' XRGB to a TV that lacks a VGA input, especially the Sony W's since those scale component signals very well as Fudoh implied.

The only annoying thing is the Dreamcast VGA image directly through a transcoder is super clean but somehow squeezed.

Lol of course this would happen to me, I actually had been looking at getting an audio authority 9a60a, I even started a thread over on the digitpress boards specifically asking for a component transcoder and later put in a bid on ebay for a 9a60a but got outbid last second, that was when I said forget this, I'm just getting a dvdo edge or gefen and washing my hands of this.

But since I never found anyone that had used that exact combo before (an xrgb3 with 9a60a) I couldn't get anyone to vouch for whether all it did was change the color space and leave the rest unprocessed in the interest of lag. In fact I believe I even got a person telling me it was a bad idea and that component transcoders introduced so much lag it would make games unplayable. I should have just gone with my gut

If I went with an audio authority 9a60 or other similar transcoder would I get as sharp a picture as I do with the gefen combo? Because personally I love the look of this combo, pixel perfect geometry with some tweaking and graphics are razor sharp. Only issue really is sync problems

[Fudoh]

yes, the Sony on it's own is as good as the Gefen.

To answer your earlier question: a straight (and cheap, as in $25) VGA to HDMI converter would still be the easiest way, but it wouldn't fully resolve the XRGB's output resolution (720x480). You would hardly notice this on 240p material, but it's not optimal when running 480p through the Mini (which you shouldn't do anyway, because of the noise issues).

[Xyga]

I should have just gone with my gut

Nah in the future just ask here first, on shmups hardware section, because there's no better place to take advice on that kind of very specific stuff period.

If I went with an audio authority 9a60 or other similar transcoder would I get as sharp a picture as I do with the gefen combo? Because personally I love the look of this combo, pixel perfect geometry with some tweaking and graphics are razor sharp. Only issue really is sync problems

I can't compare because I never owned the Gefen (just read a lot about it and wasn't impressed), but I'm very satisfied with the 9A60 which I got used $50 on eBay (thanks to Fudoh's input).
I'd say it's almost flawless, sure from time-to-time I have to adjust the horizontal position a bit using the potentiometer inside, and there's no vertical adjust neither on the 9A60 nor on the Sony so it happens that I miss maybe one line or two vertically, but that's rare (I've tried tons of scalers and game hardware combinations with it so don't ask in which occurrence it happened, I don't remember).
Also depending on the source I've noticed some slight color bleeding on the sides outside of the 4:3 picture frame, or a tiny bit of vertical ringing while looking up very close, but that might as well have been caused by the sharpness settings on my Sony.
As a whole the picture from an XRGB-3 or an XRGB-2 looks as good as it can, it's like when I'm using a direct VGA input on a TV/Monitor, maybe even better I would dare say but I'd thank the Sony for that as well since it's so good at handling the signal, add to that the overscan and many sharpness/details controls and it's just wow.
One of my best purchases ever, it also works with my other VGA-only scalers and since this method skips the 'VGA VS. SMPTE' issue, they all look even better than before.

The Crescendo models are supposedly even a bit better, but I think Fudoh mentioned there shouldn't be any big differences in picture quality.

Thing to keep in mind is those real transcoders indeed just change the colors space, everything else is just passed, resolution, framerate, even interlaced signals. So the behaviour with all that will depend on your source, XRGB, and display. I mean if you get judder or lose sync or whatever, it won't be the 9A60's fault.

[Laughingman.s9]

At this point I think I'm just going to stick with the xrgb 3/gefen combo for a while. I do like the picture and in game mode I don't really feel the lag


I guess my final question is will an extron or other similar unit resolve my sync issues? I'm even considering getting an slg 3000 if I can still find one or order a toro box with the vga adapter to use as some kind of sync stripper/combiner with the added benefit of using scanlines on 480p material.


Would going this route finally fix my issue?

[BuckoA51]

It might, but I don't know of anyone that has needed it with their Gefen/XRGB combo. I'd try a clean sync SCART/RGB cable first, the XRGB3 really appreciates clean sync cables for some reason anyway. Though I did recently test a luma sync cable on a SNES with the XRGB3 and it worked just as well.

[Fudoh]

I guess my final question is will an extron or other similar unit resolve my sync issues?

can you tell who's losing sync ? Shouldn't be the XRGB. The Gefen or the TV ? If it's the TV, you can try lowering the resolution from the Gefen for a moment. As said, 1080p doesn't play well on my older Sony. If it's the Gefen *I* would try adding an interface. Doesn't cost much and certainly worth a try.

I would just keep looking for a transcoder. They aren't easily available anyway, so just watch out and if you can find one, you'll be ready to switch.

[SGGG2]

I've chained the XRGB-3 signal into the Extron before sending it to the Scaler Plus or Optoma HD3000 and I have the same exact same issue (super bright whites / washed out picture) with transcoding 480p Wii signals. I use the Wii mostly for Retroarch emulation at 240p (I generally play Wii games on Dolphin at 1080p ) so I set the system resolution to 480i.

An Extron with H and V adjustments and a VGA to component transcoder would definitely be solid pick ups.

[Laughingman.s9]

I've chained the XRGB-3 signal into the Extron before sending it to the Scaler Plus or Optoma HD3000 and I have the same exact same issue (super bright whites / washed out picture) with transcoding 480p Wii signals. I use the Wii mostly for Retroarch emulation at 240p (I generally play Wii games on Dolphin at 1080p ) so I set the system resolution to 480i.

An Extron with H and V adjustments and a VGA to component transcoder would definitely be solid pick ups.

Which extron unit exactly should I be looking for then? I mostly only see mention of the extron 109 and I believe the 202. That number might be wrong in that last one

[Fudoh]

Horizontal and vertical shift are available on the 201 and 203. Avoid the 202 because of the its old DB9 RGB inputs (instead of HD15). If you don't need shifting (or just horizontal) there're lots to choose from.

[Laughingman.s9]

I guess my final question is will an extron or other similar unit resolve my sync issues?

can you tell who's losing sync ? Shouldn't be the XRGB. The Gefen or the TV ? If it's the TV, you can try lowering the resolution from the Gefen for a moment. As said, 1080p doesn't play well on my older Sony. If it's the Gefen *I* would try adding an interface. Doesn't cost much and certainly worth a try.

I would just keep looking for a transcoder. They aren't easily available anyway, so just watch out and if you can find one, you'll be ready to switch.

After some testing ive found the fault lies with the Sony tv, I tested on an older television and didn't have those issues. On the Sony, when I can't get an image if I change inputs then change back it usually resolves the issue

Not sure what the fix is in this case, I'm leaning towards living with it as is as its only a mild inconvenience however if a cheap sub 30 dollar solution exists such as an extron i may go that route just for the hell of it

[Fudoh]

Have you tried another output resolution from the Gefen ?

[Laughingman.s9]

Have you tried another output resolution from the Gefen ?

Only alternated between native and 1080p which I imagine is already the native resolution of the Sony TV so technically no lol

If I set it to a lower resolution will the TV have to compensate for the non native signal and then upscale that back to 1080p?


Wouldn't this cause added lag?

[Fudoh]

Just give it a try. It does not cause extra lag and maybe you can a more compatible output resolution. Qualitywise it hardly makes a difference when coming from 480p.

[SGGG2]

Quality wise it hardly makes a difference when coming from 480p.

Yeah, you can lower the output resolution of the Gefen a surprising amount without degrading image quality.

[Laughingman.s9]

Quality wise it hardly makes a difference when coming from 480p.

Yeah, you can lower the output resolution of the Gefen a surprising amount without degrading image quality.

I have a question that's unrelated, this is more just to satisfy my own curiosity, which from your experience offers a better image for 240p content, the xrgb3/gefen combo or framemeister?


I realize for 480i content, the framemeister probably mops the floor with the xrgb 3 but does an xrgb3 with gefen scaler approach or even surpass a mini in any regards? For 240p games im having a hard time believing it can get better than this, and this is coming from a former Sony bvm 20f1u owner

[SGGG2]

Unfortunately, I haven't seen a mini in person. Screenshots looks fantastic, but I'm worried that the image may be a little too sharp at 720p for my taste. 480p output is too soft and 1080p has problems rendering scanlines correctly. The mini has better compatibility with systems and TV's while the XRGB-3 has issues with the SMS, Neo Geo and PC Engine, and is designed to be used with computer monitors. The 3 is better suited for content that switches between 480i and 240p while the Mini takes a good five seconds to re-sync.

I prefer the XRGB-3's B1 field-doubling mode (with a moderate scanline setting) for 480i content over any deinterlacing I've seen so far and even over the same titles booted into 480p at times! The resulting image's preferable to the deinterlacing on the Optoma HD3000, which does a pretty good job when you compare it to the same titles booted in 480p. Granted, I use B1 for fast action games like Virtua Fighter 4 and Devil May Cry 3. RPG's and 2D games may be a different story.

The Gefen is the best all around scaler I've used for Dreamcast games, so that alone is enough for me to keep it. You should check out Fudoh's Top 5 scaler lists here: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/

I'd say he's right on target.

[Fudoh]

The Mini's 480p output is considerably less sharp than the XRGB-3's 480p output.
The Mini's 720p is sharper than the XRGB-3's 480p output. I would say the XRGB-3 is right in the middle.

A DVDO/XRGB-3 combo moves the result closer to the Mini's 720p output, but doesn't quite reach it.

[Fudoh]

The Gefen is the best all around scaler I've used for Dreamcast games

The aspect ratio is a little too wide. The DC used with a transcoder on a current Sony looks even a tiny bit better, but the AR is a little too narrow. Pick your poison.

The reason why the DC looks better on the Sony directly is that you get a 1:2 pixel match on the horizontal (DC output > TV panel).

[Laughingman.s9]

The Mini's 480p output is considerably less sharp than the XRGB-3's 480p output.
The Mini's 720p is sharper than the XRGB-3's 480p output. I would say the XRGB-3 is right in the middle.

A DVDO/XRGB-3 combo moves the result closer to the Mini's 720p output, but doesn't quite reach it.

Would you say a xrgb 3 in b1 paired with a gefen outputting in 1080p is comparable to the image an xrgb framemeister would put out in 720p?

If one is better than the other, is the difference substantial enough to upgrade?


I'm debating selling off my combo for a framemeister if the framemeister really does have that much of a bigger jump in quality or possibly keeping my xrgb 3 and pairing it with a better scaler like an edge, or vp30 with abt 102. Maybe even a vp50pro if I ever see one for 250 or so

I'm happy with my combo but if I know there's a better alternative within reach i usually go for that if for nothing else than peace of mind

[Fudoh]

If one is better than the other, is the difference substantial enough to upgrade?

The Mini's better. You wouldn't upgrade for the image quality alone. The Mini has better compatibility, a considerably more stable picture and FANTASTIC 480i processing. Still a XRGB/DVDO combo is a more versatile solution. From masking and AR control with the secondery processor, less processing lag and the way 480i is displayed in B1 mode which is better suited for certain games. It's not an easy decision - that's why I got both setups as well....

[Xyga]

Using an older XRGB (not Mini) with a genuine VGA>Component transcoder on a Sony W set almost defeats the 'XRGB+DVDO' combos.
And that's just for a portion of the price of a DVDO vp30+ABT or vp50Pro assuming you get the transcoder used (well even new it's cheaper).
I'd say go for the combo only if you don't own a Sony W (but you do so.. )

Or thrash everything and get a Mini indeed.
An old XRGB+transcoder will have the edge in lag (2ms), while the Mini easily wins in picture quality (but it's lag is 24ms).

[kel]

I used the XRGB-3/DVDO Edge combo for a few years and was happy with it until I tried connecting the XRGB-3 directly to my TV through a transcoder. The DVDO Edge combo looks kinda blurry to me now (not to mention the ringing) compared to the nice sharp image with no ringing that I get when just using a transcoder with my TV's scaler and my TV is only an old LG IPS.

Maybe it's not the DVDO Edge but the difference in my TV's component and HDMI processing, I don't know but I don't think that I will be going back to the DVDO Edge combo for now.

I like this setup at the moment more that using the framemeister. The framemeister is great but the image is very sharp for me (like emulator sharp) even with 720p compared to the slightly softer but still sharp look of the XRGB-3 with 480p and the lag difference sweetens the deal for me although to be honest I probably don't notice it as much as I would like to think I do.

[Xyga]

Yes it depends on TV's, some have quite satisfying upscaling now, some even better than the DVDO's, but really they're not all equal.
I used to own an old LG IPS too (LD450) and although it did well it definitely was not on par with my current Sony W (W650A).

The DVDO do things a transcoder + TV can't do alone, like frame-locking or fine overscan/zoom tuning, plus there's the useful many outputs (at least on the VP30/50/50pro).
I was disappointed by the EDGE because it can't keep lag low like the VP's family, also there's that noticeable ringing on 480i contents indeed.

Anyway the main reasons for investing in a DVDO VP + XRGB combo are;
- you have a TV with horrible upscaling of the XRGB's signal and lots of judder, bad/no overscan control, stuff like that.
- you have a monitor lacking a component and/or VGA input, as well as useful controls over many things.
- you have a bad case of OCD (like me) and want your scanlined image fullscreen without borders but still aligned, minimize judder, keep lag low, and prefer that more 'analogue' feel over the Mini's 'emulated'. Also you like 50Hz compatibility and need moar video outputs.

All that.
Otherwise old XRGB + VGA>Component transcoder is okay, also VGA>HDMI too as Fudoh says.
More cost-effective, and the fastest combo lag-wise if that counts.

[Fudoh]

To be fair:

The framemeister is great but the image is very sharp for me (like emulator sharp) even with 720p

using the H_SCALER function you can pretty easily reduce the sharpness to match the XRGB3's look.

[kel]

Yes it depends on TV's, some have quite satisfying upscaling now, some even better than the DVDO's, but really they're not all equal.
I used to own an old LG IPS too (LD450) and although it did well it definitely was not on par with my current Sony W (W650A).

Yep that's the one, the (LD450). I know it's getting a bit old now but it's not a bad set for what it is. It's 480i deinterlacing is also quite good too, not a massive difference from the Framemeister or DVDO IMHO. I would like to upgrade it to a Sony W series set someday but I just got a PE43H4500 plasma so it will have to wait unfortunately.

To be fair:

The framemeister is great but the image is very sharp for me (like emulator sharp) even with 720p

using the H_SCALER function you can pretty easily reduce the sharpness to match the XRGB3's look.

I'll keep that in mind for next time I get around to using it. Maybe using the framemeister's H_SCALER function with my LG TV I might find an image that matches my taste at the moment. Recently I do prefer the softer CRT like look, hence why I went for the H4500 plasma.

[SGGG2]

An XRGB3/Optoma combo is TOO sharp on a good sized LCD, looks fine on smaller one or a big plasma. If the mini had a 480i field doubling mode like the 3 has I'd have upgraded already. At this point there's probably another XRGB in the pipeline...

I'm waiting for scaler with 4K support and pixel shaders.

[Xyga]

Yep that's the one, the (LD450). I know it's getting a bit old now but it's not a bad set for what it is. It's 480i deinterlacing is also quite good too, not a massive difference from the Framemeister or DVDO IMHO.

Indeed it was one of the first to be decent for video games, even consoles, I was impressed with the handling of 480i as well.
It also automatically overscanned the PS2's signal to eliminate useless borders.
Very configurable, only lacked a tiny bit lower lag and better contrast/blacks of course.

Compared to the LG a Sony W is different in that is shows a more precise and 'truer to the source' picture, with better quality sharpness and details control. Also overscan control that makes sense, which is very nice.
There's a stark difference in colors and contrast though, since it's a VA panel, colors feel less 'natural' and viewing angles are narrower.
The main attraction of course is the super low lag.

Also a Sony W is completely different from a plasma of course, but you buy a Sony W more for its competence than viewing pleasure.
If you can get a 32W70 or 42W70 at a reasonable price over 2015 it cannot be a bad purchase.