Prelude to the Apocalypse

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Iran War. When.

2021
3
4%
2022-2025
21
30%
2026-2030
9
13%
2031-2040
6
9%
2041-2050
1
1%
Never
29
42%
 
Total votes: 69

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Opus131
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Opus131 »

BulletMagnet wrote:This being the case, how would you respond, just for starters, to what Rob mentioned above, concerning how openly anti-science and anti-intellectual the right in particular has become in recent years?
The left is intellectual and pro-science? Since when? All they care about is identity politics and feminist drivel. Who managed to get Tim Hunt fired from his job? Was it a right-winger? Who managed to reduce Matt Taylor into a sobbing wreck? Conversely, who are the people campaigning to prevent debate in our universities, opting for "safe spaces" where only the "right" opinions can be heard and no dissenting voice is tolerated?

And lo, here's a typical product of our fine "higher education" at work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmO-ziHU_D8

Courtesy of the supposedly "intellectual" left.
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Hagane
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Hagane »

What's this US "left" you guys are talking about? Is there anyone up there with any chance to win that can truly be called leftist? The US has a very strange vision of what constitutes being a leftist. I've heard some people say Obama is one, even!
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Opus131
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Opus131 »

I like how whenever a person talks about the left a second doesn't go by without some smart ass coming out of the wood work explaining us "American" plebs (for the record, i'm not American) how relative the term leftist is, since apparently each country has an entirely different conception of left and right (even though they really don't, and left and right are really the same everywhere, once you really get down to it).

Then again, this tendency to inject relativistic thinking into everything is sort of a "leftist" attitude. When in doubt, always dance around definitions in order to shove the point of the argument aside in favor of some irrelevant red herring.
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Opus131
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Opus131 »

BTW, to continue on the "why is Trump so popular" question:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham ... on_scandal
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Hagane
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Hagane »

What a long-winded way to say nothing at all. So, what's the gold standard for leftist, since apparently it's the same everywhere? Is Obama the same as Castro? Felipe González = Evo Morales? Mitterrand = Stalin? If US Democrats are the "left", where that would put someone like F.D.Roosevelt? Maoism? Trotskyism?
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Rob
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Rob »

Opus131 wrote:The left is intellectual and pro-science? Since when?
The left pretends to care, while the right is aggressively anti. These are the options we have, unfortunately. I'm far more repulsed by the right than I am in love with the left.
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Opus131
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Opus131 »

What a long winded way to present some nonsensical relativistic view of things. Apparently, there's no underlying point of view underneath what we usually refer to as left and right, it is just a matter of totally unrelated and completely contingent policies.

That is of course as long as we are speaking about the left. The right however is a pretty definite entity which, among other things, appears to be anti-science and anti-intellectual. Or something.
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Hagane
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Hagane »

Are you going to present a real argument sometime or should I stop caring?
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Opus131
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Opus131 »

Rob wrote:I'm far more repulsed by the right than I am in love with the left.
Yes, and that's the problem, since the left is now dominated by their fringe. Take identity politics. What's the difference between your average SJW and say, the KKK?
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Opus131
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Opus131 »

Hagane wrote:Are you going to present a real argument sometime or should I stop caring?
By "real" argument i take you mean an argument which acknowledges your biases and preconceptions on how the world is supposed to work. The fact i believe left and right are labels that have been applied to innate tendencies individuals tend to gravitate to based on some underlying predisposition flies completely in the face on your relativistic understanding of what those political entities actually are. Therefore, this is not a "real" argument.
Last edited by Opus131 on Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hagane
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Hagane »

Oh, it seems I should not care then. It's clear that you have no idea of what you are talking about and are going to keep evading the question forever.
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Opus131
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Opus131 »

I'm not evading any question. As i said, i'm just refusing to take your point of view for granted or accept your basic premises. Is Obama the same as Castro? Not really, but that doesn't mean neither of them can be labeled as left-wing, when they both clearly are. Again, the logical conclusion would simply to see those labels as completely meaningless, which begs the question of why you would care about their correct usage.
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by trap15 »

If you think Obama is left-wing, you really don't know what that label means.
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BryanM
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by BryanM »

Yesssss the embers are working quite nicely
What's this US "left" you guys are talking about? Is there anyone up there with any chance to win that can truly be called leftist? The US has a very strange vision of what constitutes being a leftist. I've heard some people say Obama is one, even!
We have this guy who wants to turn us into 1984 Canada. His chance of beating Hillary is much, much higher than the 0% the punditry tries to make it be.
Opus131 wrote:Not sure i understand what being in "single digits" is
It's being politically wrong, like this poor schmuck.

It's interesting how the pure economic message of the GOP is a loser, but the cosmetic stuff is a total winner. The libertarian platform pushes the economic message forward, says "let's dump the bigoted cosmetic social issue stuff and war mongering", and tops out at 10% of the party in a good year, for the support of about 4% of the total population.

And there are the guys who believe completely it's the future of the party somehow. I find them fascinating, since faith is completely at odds with how I try my best to look at things analytically.
Signing into law environmental protection, historic preservation, Indian self-government, nuclear disarmament - it's everything a liberal could want!
Yeah, he had a democratic congress still, and this was while we still had vestiges of the New Deal in our public consciousness. We'd just created Medicare for crying out loud - something unthinkable in the current environment.

Improving relations with China was definitely great. Even today we have people like $hillary trying to use the red scare to frighten stupid people who think the USSR still exists.
"America is so damn sick of hearing about your emails!"

Ha ha, good one, Bern.
You're looking at that from the perspective of someone who would never vote for him tho. He's running as a democrat, not as a Trump.

Let you me assure you this - that was the most damaging thing he could have possibly done to her. Intelligent people are sick as fuck about the petty stupid email shit until the FBI finds something worth our precious precious time.

In that single moment millions of Hillary supporters fell in love with the man. Those are the people he needs to convince to vote for him. Being a petty little asshole on everything like the talking heads want to see is not going to win him any points with them.

People don't always remember what you say, but they'll always remember how you make them feel.
If you think Obama is left-wing, you really don't know what that label means.
Unfortunately the Clintons and Tony Blairs of the world have redefined what liberalism and left wing means to those countries.

I can't even fuckin' blame people for wanting Trump or Hitler after all that.
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BulletMagnet
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by BulletMagnet »

Opus131 wrote:The left is intellectual and pro-science? Since when? All they care about is identity politics and feminist drivel.
If the only noteworthy cause you can bother to attach to "the left" (which, as was noted elsewhere, doesn't mean anywhere near what it used to, though that won't stop corporatist charlatans from gnashing their teeth over how "extreme" it's gotten, when a "Socialist" like Obama has not only refused to investigate any of the Iraq war's profiteers and barely touched the Recession's criminals, but extended Bush's incredibly regressive tax cuts...which themselves look like child's play compared to any of the current candidates' proposals, especially Trump's) is this fringe ultra-feminist drivel you keep sniveling about as if it wields more power than any other relevant entity, you possess the political perception of an iron ingot and the depth of the shadow it casts.

Or you're just a particularly aggravating, willfully dense troll.
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BryanM
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by BryanM »

Obama put criminal bankers in the White House. Sanders wants to put criminal bankers in jail.

That's a somewhat minor difference between the two.
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Opus131
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Opus131 »

trap15 wrote:If you think Obama is left-wing, you really don't know what that label means.
But then, as we have already established, the labels don't really mean anything, making this entire argument pointless, right?

Besides, i'm sort of smelling a true Scotsman fallacy going on here. It is not that Obama is not a left-winger, he is simply not a "true" left-winger.
BulletMagnet wrote:If the only noteworthy cause you can bother to attach to "the left"
As opposed to painting all conservatives as backward, clueless rednecks, who just like Trump because they are as moronic and "uniformed" as he is, right?

Nothing to do with the left cowing to their most extreme, deranged fringe:

http://www.kansascity.com/opinion/opn-c ... ck%20lives

This fringe now actually being the mainstream in most western countries.

It is like in that Star Trek episode, where Kirk goes through the malfunctioning teleporter and suddenly his personality gets split into two separate entities, one rational but ultimately weak and ineffectual, the other strong but unable to control his urges. Both the left and the right now are like the "good" Kirk in that episode. Rational, high minded, always speaking about what is good and what is right, but deep down weak, pathetic and unable to actually accomplish anything. Trump rapresents the vital part of our human nature, and that is why people like him. Because they see in him everything that is missing in the current political establishment. In this sense, his rethoric is almost besides the point, which is what the left doesn't understand, or wishes not to understand since leftists appear too busy painting their opponents as idiots to actually stop and consider that there might be deeper underlying forces at work (mind you, the mainstream right doesn't understand either, but for different reasons).

Ultimately, Plato himself anticipated this situation in his Statesman, hundreds of years before the French revolution, showing there are deeper roots to those political labels and it is not simply a matter of any specific policy or ideal.
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ED-057
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by ED-057 »

Opus131 wrote:the labels don't really mean anything, making this entire argument pointless, right?
It's not that they don't mean anything, just that they are irrelevant. So yes, 100% pointless.
Both the left and the right now are like the "good" Kirk in that episode. Rational, high minded, always speaking about what is good and what is right, but deep down weak, pathetic and unable to actually accomplish anything.
I disagree. The problem is not that they are weak, it's that they are dishonest. We don't have leadership. We have salesmen. Instead of telling people what is right, they tell people what they want to hear. Instead of trying to justify what they are doing, they hope nobody notices what they are doing.
Trump rapresents the vital part of our human nature, and that is why people like him. Because they see in him everything that is missing in the current political establishment. In this sense, his rethoric is almost besides the point
I think you are correct that people see it this way, but I don't think it is an accurate perception. His debate tactics are unorthodox but the "debate" itself is still the same old tightly-controlled horse and pony show.

As for SJWs, they are just the secular counterpart to a religious fundamentalist. If we had real leadership and real debate, they would be rightfully laughed at.
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Rob
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Rob »

Trump rapresents the vital part of our human nature,
I must really hate human nature.
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BryanM
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by BryanM »

We are tribal little animals. Not to anyone's surprise - we've got millions of years of evolution living as animals under tribalism. This new ass feudal/capital/social stuff is completely new and alien to our monkey brains.
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Opus131
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Opus131 »

Rob wrote:
Trump rapresents the vital part of our human nature,
I must really hate human nature.
There's human nature, and then there's human nature. I think human beings are part animal, and part creatures of intellect, and balancing the two has never been easy, and probably never will.

Now, i think one of the main differences between the left and the right is that the first seems to care about the individual, individual liberties and at the end of the spectrum human subjectivity, with all of its emotional and psychological needs, which at the fringe are seen as paramount over everything. When it comes to the right, we have an increased concern with objectivity and "reality", at the expense of the individual, whose needs and desires are seen as secondary in the face of "what must be done", whatever that may be at a given time. I think in an healthy society, the forces governing those tendencies are balanced against one another in order to form an harmonious whole, where as what we have seen this past few centuries or so is a polarization of those forces, each thereby becoming more and more extreme in order to combat the extremism in the other, forming something of vicious cycle.

I would also that the intellectual history of the right seems to show a strong tendency towards an existentialist view of life, which by extension also happens to be anti-rationalistic. This can been in such "hard core" right-wing philosophers as Friedrich Nietzsche, or Martin Heidegger. It is not surprising then that somebody like Trump would fire up the right so quickly.
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by BulletMagnet »

Opus131 wrote:As opposed to painting all conservatives as backward, clueless rednecks, who just like Trump because they are as moronic and "uniformed" as he is, right?
I'm afraid you're projecting someone else onto me, as I've repeatedly said, possibly earlier on in this very thread if not elsewhere, that a big part of why liberals keep losing elections, despite having pretty much all the tangible numbers and facts on their side, is the fact that they've dismissed so many conservative voters as "lost causes" and have largely not bothered to reach out to them, even when many of those same voters are the ones being screwed over the worst by corporatist conservative policies.

I do believe that both Trump and the Republican electorate are "misinformed", but in two different ways: Trump is rich, well-educated, and well-connected, so anything he doesn't know is something he's being willfully ignorant about. Most rank-and-file voters only have so much free time and resources on their hands if they want to make ends meet, so if neither the candidates nor the media bother to be straight with them (and, may I repeat, the opposition doesn't even try to correct things) many will inevitably be misled, and ironically it will be the ones they voted for who will dismiss their lack of savvy as "well, they should have done more research" (and, beyond that, "if they worked harder, they'd have more time to learn").

There are liberals who do dismiss half the country as "dimwitted hillbillies", and they're the ones who have helped get us all into this mess (and as I know I noted earlier in here, General Electric owns their leaders) - I am not one of them. That said, when I do encounter a genuinely head-up-ass notion/obsession like "Sanders didn't kick BLM off the stage, which proves that the entire left wants to cut off everyone's dicks", it's just as deserving of derision and dismissal from the discussion.
Nothing to do with the left cowing to their most extreme, deranged fringe:
Dude, if the American left was even aware it had "left of center" elements at this point, we'd have single-payer health care (and, by some estimations, no annual deficit), a far more progressive tax system, job creation and living-wage efforts that aim higher than McDonald's and Wal-Mart, well-maintained infrastructure, criminal executives rotting in jail cells, tighter environmental regulations, foreign policy choices beyond "bomb" and "don't bomb", and the list goes on. Maybe every heckler at a rally wouldn't end up beat to hell, but that's a price we'd have to pay.

One more time: the SJW "menace" is a complete and total bogeyman, and a distraction from the stuff that actually has a discernible effect on most people's lives that goes beyond "occasional visceral annoyance". If you're truly that much of a one-"issue" (to use the term incredibly loosely) voter, and unwilling to so much as consider that there might be something else (or numerous other things) happening here, prepare to be repeatedly skinned alive by the Trumps of the world, and to lose your seat at any genuine attempt to discuss matters of import. Starting here.
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antares
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by antares »

Interesting story from Michael Moore:

https://www.facebook.com/mmflint/posts/ ... 68471857:0
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Obscura
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Obscura »

BulletMagnet wrote:One more time: the SJW "menace" is a complete and total bogeyman, and a distraction from the stuff that actually has a discernible effect on most people's lives that goes beyond "occasional visceral annoyance". If you're truly that much of a one-"issue" (to use the term incredibly loosely) voter, and unwilling to so much as consider that there might be something else (or numerous other things) happening here, prepare to be repeatedly skinned alive by the Trumps of the world, and to lose your seat at any genuine attempt to discuss matters of import. Starting here.
Sorry, but I know people IRL whose lives are negatively impacted by SJW idiocy. It's a massive problem for artists and musicians right now.
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Opus131
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Opus131 »

I think the Rotherham case ought to dispel any notion that PC culture isn't a huge problem in the west.
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BulletMagnet
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by BulletMagnet »

Whatever negative effects it's had (and I still deduce that the vast, vast majority of it falls under "personal annoyance"), there's no way it comes anywhere close - or ever will - to any of the far more wide-ranging and consequential issues I mentioned in my previous post (feel free to enlighten me on how political correctness is the real cause of the wealth gap), and those are just the ones I could most quickly recall off the top of my head.

Further, there's no way it's important enough to take precedence not only in its own dedicated thread (where, once again, any patina of "journalism ethics" has long since faded into the ether), but that it should also be suddenly held up as a legitimate, if not defining, factor in selecting a Presidential candidate; sorry, but this type and degree of damn-the-torpedoes war whooping is as self-congratulatory and irritatingly obsessive as anything I could ever expect to see from an SJW.
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by quash »

It seems that the ressentiment of the left is finally collapsing under its own weight. Sanders is suing his own party, good luck with that, lol.

President Trump, your limo is waiting.
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BryanM
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by BryanM »

Debbie should have been fired years ago. They endorsed a literal republican against Alan Grayson for crying out loud.

That's very symbolic of doesn't-give-a-shit Obama. I think he'd like to have gotten rid of her, but just didn't want to have to deal with fallout from all the Clinton people. Too much effort when there's other battles to fight.

Honestly I wish Democrats hated their party even 60% as much as the Republicans do. Liberals are the worst.

Re: Sanders, I honestly think they thought he'd just curl up and die. Like how John Kerry let the swiftboating go on and on. Sanders at least knows enough that if you let other people speak for you, you're gonna get crushed.
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by BulletMagnet »

Trump resists party establishment (such as it is): Finally, someone who gets it, and is willing to act upon his beliefs without obsessing over the consequences. Just look at how the in-the-trenches voters are rallying around him; he's shaken things up, and added some much-needed spark to this whole dog and pony show. This one's playing several moves ahead of everyone else, let me tell you!

Sanders resists party establishment: The reckless imbecile has doomed both himself and his party.

Mind you, I hesitate to make any major predictions as to precisely how either of these situations might play out, but methinks there's some overlap here you're failing to acknowledge.
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by quash »

The difference is that Trump is not in any way, shape or form dependent on the GOP. He could run as an independent at this point and give the middle finger to everyone.

Sanders, on the other hand, while not necessarily part of the "establishment", is still deeply entrenched in politics and has nowhere else to go.

One is changing the game, the other is acting out against the hand that feeds.
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