MAME HLSL CRT SCANLINE EMULATION PRESETS

[Tatsuya79]

I've tried Retroarch just now, and I loved how some of the presets looked exactly like composite input (RCA yellow) on a TV.
Can you tell me if it's possible to adjust individual colors (R,G,B separately) in Retroarch ?

Also, what display resolution are you using for MAME HLSL?

It depends of the shader you're using.
Just go in the shader folder and open the one you like with a text editor to see if some values are tweakable.
I think some shaders allow that but I'm not an expert in the code they're using, if you want to dig deeper you would have to ask on the retroarch forum.

I'm in 1080p, seems hlsl needs more than that from my conclusion.

[cmoses]

Could someone who has both Retroarch and MAME HLSL running post a few side by side comparisons shots? Running the same game with similar screenshots. I would be interested in seeing some of those.

Thanks

[bulbousbeard]

Dell 4K 28" monitor for $699. Let's see how the lag turns out. If it's fine, this could make a great MAME display.

http://en.community.dell.com/dell-blogs ... ID=3891137

No, it couldn't. Only a G-Sync LCD is going to be a good MAME display.

If you can't handle variable refresh rates and run all games at their native speed, it's pointless. If you can't get a G-Sync monitor, your only option is a CRT if you want a remotely decent experience. Playing these games with hiccups isn't a good experience.

This will be a good MAME display:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7627/asus-at-ces-2014

The PG278Q runs at 2560x1440 @ 120 Hz refresh rate and has a 1 ms response time and G-SYNC. We're on the cusp of replacing CRTs.

What's really going to seal the deal is the first 4k OLED G-Sync monitor. You'll have decent blacks, excellent response time, every game will run at its native refresh rate, and you'll have enough resolution to do all the whack ass effects you want.

[LRa]

Thanks NUeda. I have two instances of mame and when I tried running the batch on the other mame, it worked. Dunno why it didn't process any files on my other version.

There are a few, for example deco32 games.

edit: also, how can I calculate the optimal value for;
shadow_mask_x_count
shadow_mask_y_count

[Fudoh]

The PG278Q runs at 2560x1440 @ 120 Hz refresh rate and has a 1 ms response time and G-SYNC. We're on the cusp of replacing CRTs.

but with a TN panel, so thanks, but no thanks. For now I'll take a non-TN non-G-Sync display anytime over any TN G-Sync monitor.

[Tatsuya79]

One question regarding low response time monitors, like 120Hz ones.
I'm on a PVA screen, awesome contrast and colors but, yeah quite high response time and some ghosting, that was unavoidable, I bought it knowing that though.

When playing vertical shmups such as let's say Super Star Soldier on NEC or any vertical scrolling in fact, the horizontal scanlines become invisible as they are in the middle of the "response trail" or whatever you call it in english. :p

Does a 120Hz screen manage to keep the scanlines visible in that situation?
is it fast enough to not cover those, what should it be, 5 pixels on a 1920*1200 screen one scanline consists of?

[cools]

If you can't handle variable refresh rates and run all games at their native speed, it's pointless.

Can G-Sync get to 6 decimal place precision? I can't find any reference to sub Hz syncing. DoDonPachi runs at 57.550645hz according to MAME.

Even a CRT and GroovyMAME can't get this precise due to video card limitations.

[NUeda]

LRa,

Code: Select all

shadow_mask_x_count 320
shadow_mask_y_count 240

These are the default values.

They are for adjusting shadow mask (aperture), and
256 x 224 games will look coarser and
384 x 224 games will look finer.
(it's not supposed to do that, but that's just how it behaves right now)

So if the game you're playing has 256 x 224 ~ 320 x 240 resolution,
try raising shadow_mask_x_count to 400.














INI creator: 86_japan.ini


Retroarch: NTSC.cgp

Retroarch has like 20 ~ 40 different presets (I didn't count exactly). I just picked this preset at random.

Please take into consideration that this preset is deliberately degrading the picture quality,
to get that composite video (RCA Yellow) look.
I know this is not the proper look for RGB monitors, but think of the flexibility that's being offered.




I'm about 90% convinced that I will be switching over to retroarch for good.
(I put up a fight for about a day, but I can't resist it anymore.)

The range of options and functionality in Retroarch is like
using different HLSL engines,
and using multiple instances of them at the same time.



It works with any emulator
(if someone has imported the emulator core)
and
it will work on any platform.
(Windows, Linux, OS X, Android, Wii, PS3, Xbox, Xbox 360, BlackBerry 10)



Granted, switching over will force me to
drop the MAME + HLSL setup I've been using and get accustomed to MAME + Retroarch's setup and UI,
which I feel is rather user-unfriendly at this point,
but what can I do,
Retroarch simply has more options for tweaking the visual look of my games.

It finally sold me when I learned Retroarch can do 60 Hz CRT flicker if you are using a 120 Hz monitor.





I hate to say this,
but I think I will be switching over to Retroarch preset development
once I finish up on supporting the games that were requested for INI creator.

The next release of INI creator will be the last. (and maybe one more after that to correct any issues)
If you have any game that you want supported, please mention its name now.

[BuckoA51]

I achieved some great looking results using Retroarch with GBA emulators but I had no idea it could work with Mame. Where can we learn more? Retroarch's website doesn't seem to have many details.

[Tatsuya79]

Retroarch has like 20 ~ 40 different presets (I didn't count exactly).

That's for the presets (several shaders: 1st pass, 2nd pass...) cgp files, but you also have plenty of single pass shaders (cg files) you can use directly by changing the option of the 1st pass shader.
In settings -> video -> shader you specify "1 pass" and then click on "shader #0" to select a single pass shader.

I understand your problem with moving along.
Just looked at my Mame folder, I got 115 ini files I made for particular driver and games with shadowmask settings and RGB values.

But CRT emulation apart, the 0 input lag with vsync is too great anyway, even with Nestopia known for this problem on windows it gets the issue fixed.
I still use MameUI to search for games though as actually in retrorach it's really rough with only the zip names.

@BuckoA51:
You mean using shaders in Mame?
It doesn't work with Mame for windows, it's only possible with SDLMame for Linux/OSX as far as I know.

[cools]

Just looked at my Mame folder, I got 115 ini files I made for particular driver and games with shadowmask settings and RGB values.

On my cabs with actual arcade CRTs, the only things I change when changing games are the size and position. 99% of the stuff I swap between doesn't need the RGB/brightness/contrast changing. It's also physically impossible to change the shadowmask.

Certain stuff needs the RGB boosting up (inevitably meaning the brightness/contrast also needs changing) but that's not commonplace.

I dunno, at this point it feels like everyone is doing HLSL wrong. I'd like to see some settings based on real properties of a specific tube, though I fear finding out these details may be pretty difficult.

[Tatsuya79]

99% of the stuff I swap between doesn't need the RGB/brightness/contrast changing. It's also physically impossible to change the shadowmask.

Certain stuff needs the RGB boosting up (inevitably meaning the brightness/contrast also needs changing) but that's not commonplace.

I can tell you which systems I used to change RGB values for, but actually it's more brightness/contrast:
most notable are contra, thunderx, segas16a, segas16b, m72, dec8...

Those are shots I took to make sure I could achieve a comparable result between hlsl settings and standard Mame brightness/contrast values, to illustrate this need for tweaking:
Ninja Spirit - with a PC-engine shot to show how it was supposed to be
Super Contra - not sure that's perfect, it needs an S-curve perhaps but can't do that

Unrelated, same 3wonders shot with a tweaked CRT-geom-flat shader on retroarch (love this shader, I didn't change RGB settings in Mame, it needs a bit more punch perhaps):

[Fudoh]

When playing vertical shmups such as let's say Super Star Soldier on NEC or any vertical scrolling in fact, the horizontal scanlines become invisible as they are in the middle of the "response trail" or whatever you call it in english. :p

not even a CRT will display proper scanlines with a vertically scrolling games on a horizontal screen.

[Tatsuya79]

not even a CRT will display proper scanlines with a vertically scrolling games on a horizontal screen.

Alright, that kinda resolves this issue then, thanks!

[bulbousbeard]

The PG278Q runs at 2560x1440 @ 120 Hz refresh rate and has a 1 ms response time and G-SYNC. We're on the cusp of replacing CRTs.

but with a TN panel, so thanks, but no thanks. For now I'll take a non-TN non-G-Sync display anytime over any TN G-Sync monitor.

So, given the choice, you'd take constantly stuttery, hiccupy, and choppy video and INPUT LAG over a slight loss in color quality?

You realize that old arcade games aren't exactly 32bit color depth, right? That their colors look perfectly fine on a modern TN panel?

You realize that TN panels are WAY better than they used to be too, right?

You also realize that you WILL have ghosting/smearing on an IPS panel, and with a TN panel and G-Sync, you can do black frame insertion and completely eliminate ghosting, right?

You didn't drink your breakfast, right?

[bulbousbeard]

If you can't handle variable refresh rates and run all games at their native speed, it's pointless.

Can G-Sync get to 6 decimal place precision? I can't find any reference to sub Hz syncing. DoDonPachi runs at 57.550645hz according to MAME.

Even a CRT and GroovyMAME can't get this precise due to video card limitations.

Yes, it will. G-Sync is completely refresh rate independent. Whatever the program puts out, it'll be sent to the monitor as soon as the frame is ready. Technically, G-Sync will be even better than GroovyMAME in terms of running games at their proper speeds because it won't have to round the framerates like it does.

MAMEdev has already confirmed that you just need to run MAME with these args to get perfectly smooth updates in every game:

-throttle -nosyncrefresh -nowaitvsync -notriplebuffer

[nasty_wolverine]

The PG278Q runs at 2560x1440 @ 120 Hz refresh rate and has a 1 ms response time and G-SYNC. We're on the cusp of replacing CRTs.

but with a TN panel, so thanks, but no thanks. For now I'll take a non-TN non-G-Sync display anytime over any TN G-Sync monitor.

So, given the choice, you'd take constantly stuttery, hiccupy, and choppy video and INPUT LAG over a slight loss in color quality?

You realize that old arcade games aren't exactly 32bit color depth, right? That their colors look perfectly fine on a modern TN panel?

You realize that TN panels are WAY better than they used to be too, right?

You also realize that you WILL have ghosting/smearing on an IPS panel, and with a TN panel and G-Sync, you can do black frame insertion and completely eliminate ghosting, right?

You didn't drink your breakfast, right?

By "non-TN non-G-Sync display" I think he meant CRT's.
LONG LIVE CRT's

[bulbousbeard]

I just want to emphasize something, because I don't think that people really appreciate how much LCD persistence sucks and how huge a difference it makes when you get rid of it.

Let's say you're running MAME with HLSL. On an IPS panel with 6ms response time @ 60hz, you're going to have a ton of persistence. Every time the screen scrolls, every pixel representing a scanline is going to blur, and it'll look like you don't even have scanlines enabled.

If you have a 1ms response time TN panel, run at 120hz +, and insert black frames every other frame (GroovyMAME's "strobed" option, which is like a software lightboost), you virtually eliminate persistence and blurring. It's like looking at a CRT. Everything is PERFECTLY crisp and clear when it's scrolling.

A G-Sync monitor is flat out the best way to play MAME games on an LCD. The current IPS panels aren't even an option. At the sizes we're talking about (24" - 30"), viewing angles don't even really matter, either--not that they're that bad now anyway. I'm going to have to start offering to do demos for people so that they can see how huge this is.

Like I said before, the holy grail is going to be a 4k OLED G-Sync panel. I have absolutely no doubts that such a display will be better than any CRT arcade monitor ever was.

[cools]

Every time the screen scrolls, every pixel representing a scanline is going to blur, and it'll look like you don't even have scanlines enabled.

False. Scanlines do not move.

Yes, it will. G-Sync is completely refresh rate independent. Whatever the program puts out, it'll be sent to the monitor as soon as the frame is ready. Technically, G-Sync will be even better than GroovyMAME in terms of running games at their proper speeds because it won't have to round the framerates like it does.

MAMEdev has already confirmed that you just need to run MAME with these args to get perfectly smooth updates in every game:

-throttle -nosyncrefresh -nowaitvsync -notriplebuffer

Perfectly smooth, yes, of course. It'll get rid of tearing and buffer lag. But I still remain to have it proven to me that the precision of update speed is possible, because I've not read anything about G-Sync being able to update the screen 57.550645 times a second.

[trap15]

I have absolutely no doubts that such a display will be better than any CRT arcade monitor ever was.

Hahahaha what the hell are you on.

[bulbousbeard]

Every time the screen scrolls, every pixel representing a scanline is going to blur, and it'll look like you don't even have scanlines enabled.

False. Scanlines do not move.

Yes, it will. G-Sync is completely refresh rate independent. Whatever the program puts out, it'll be sent to the monitor as soon as the frame is ready. Technically, G-Sync will be even better than GroovyMAME in terms of running games at their proper speeds because it won't have to round the framerates like it does.

MAMEdev has already confirmed that you just need to run MAME with these args to get perfectly smooth updates in every game:

-throttle -nosyncrefresh -nowaitvsync -notriplebuffer

Perfectly smooth, yes, of course. It'll get rid of tearing and buffer lag. But I still remain to have it proven to me that the precision of update speed is possible, because I've not read anything about G-Sync being able to update the screen 57.550645 times a second.

True, actually. That's what persistence does. Colors persist through multiple frames. That's why scanlines look like complete shit on an LCD. They're constantly smearing whenever the screen scrolls.

[bulbousbeard]

I have absolutely no doubts that such a display will be better than any CRT arcade monitor ever was.

Hahahaha what the hell are you on.

A healthy dosage of reality? Do you honestly think that any given technology is going to be the best forever?

Reasons CRT monitors were the best for arcade games:

* Little to no lag
* Low persistence
* Variable refresh rate
* Color quality

One by one, these are being addressed by new display technology along with the added benefits of perfect geometry, which was impossible with CRTs.

[cools]

Scanlines have colours now as well?

I have MAME running with my settings for HLSL enabled on a monitor next to me. It's an old NEC Multisync LCD2070NX. There's no smearing on the scanlines. There's the tiniest bit of persistence on left and right scrolling but none on the vertical. If I run a tate game yoko there's some smearing on vertical, but none on the left/right crossing the (now vertical) scanlines.

I'd love to see a video of what you're seeing, as it sounds very interesting.

[Fudoh]

So, given the choice...

anytime, yes.

@cools:

False. Scanlines do not move.

technically that's right, but have you never seen the effect when you play a vertically scrolling game on a horizontal screen ? On CRT (in 240p) this looks like 480i. On a linedoubler with scanlines (doesn't matter if external scanlines like SLG3000 or a XRGB1/2/3/Mini) the scanlines basically disappear - or to be more precise - they disappear on the scrolling areas. Score display and other non-moving areas will show clear scanlines, while the moving background will look like interlaced. Doesn't matter what kind of display you use, happens everytime. I never looked into this - as to why to happens or if it's just an optical illusion, but it's quite obious.

[bulbousbeard]

Scanlines have colours now as well?

I have MAME running with my settings for HLSL enabled on a monitor next to me. It's an old NEC Multisync LCD2070NX. There's no smearing on the scanlines. There's the tiniest bit of persistence on left and right scrolling but none on the vertical. If I run a tate game yoko there's some smearing on vertical, but none on the left/right crossing the (now vertical) scanlines.

I'd love to see a video of what you're seeing, as it sounds very interesting.

Of course scanlines have colors in MAME's HLSL implementation. Scanlines are pixels just like the rest of everything MAME's outputting. To see a really pronounced effect, all you need to do is vertically scroll in any game that has a light background color.

Here's a greatly zoomed in shot of KOF2000's health bar with HLSL.Notice how the "scanlines" are actually just alpha blended pixels, and that they're blended with the color of the pixel they're on top of (yellow in this case). Notice how not all scanlines are equal. The scanlines on top of white pixels are gray, and the ones on top of yellow pixels are banana color.

http://i.imgur.com/Q2PQsfB.png

To really see how bad it is, just run Varth in MAME tate'd with HLSL and move left and right. You'll see the scanlines COMPLETELY blur out due to persistence. The light blue sky in Mortal Kombat 1 is also really bad. Every time you jump in MK (making the game scroll vertically), the scanlines on top of the sky area will blatantly persist out.

[cools]

So, given the choice...

anytime, yes.

@cools:

False. Scanlines do not move.

technically that's right, but have you never seen the effect when you play a vertically scrolling game on a horizontal screen ? On CRT (in 240p) this looks like 480i. On a linedoubler with scanlines (doesn't matter if external scanlines like SLG3000 or a XRGB1/2/3/Mini) the scanlines basically disappear - or to be more precise - they disappear on the scrolling areas. Score display and other non-moving areas will show clear scanlines, while the moving background will look like interlaced. Doesn't matter what kind of display you use, happens everytime. I never looked into this - as to why to happens or if it's just an optical illusion, but it's quite obious.

Yes, I've noticed this on big CRTs and low res games. I don't see it at all on an LCD though.

To really see how bad it is, just run Varth in MAME with HLSL and move left and right.

Perfect here. I've tried on the other monitor on my desk - an AccuSync AS231WM and there's no smearing of scanlines whatsoever.

I've even tried with the default MAME settings (which are getting better but still crap), and the scanlines are fine - a perfect overlay on top of the image.

I know the ghosting you mean - but the last time I saw it was on a release day PSP with Ridge Racer, but I can quite honestly say I've not seen it at all on scanlines with MAME on any LCD I've tried. There's plenty else wrong with the image, but they never blur away.

[bulbousbeard]

So, given the choice...

anytime, yes.

@cools:

False. Scanlines do not move.

technically that's right, but have you never seen the effect when you play a vertically scrolling game on a horizontal screen ? On CRT (in 240p) this looks like 480i. On a linedoubler with scanlines (doesn't matter if external scanlines like SLG3000 or a XRGB1/2/3/Mini) the scanlines basically disappear - or to be more precise - they disappear on the scrolling areas. Score display and other non-moving areas will show clear scanlines, while the moving background will look like interlaced. Doesn't matter what kind of display you use, happens everytime. I never looked into this - as to why to happens or if it's just an optical illusion, but it's quite obious.

Yes, I've noticed this on big CRTs and low res games. I don't see it at all on an LCD though.

To really see how bad it is, just run Varth in MAME with HLSL and move left and right.

Perfect here. I've tried on the other monitor on my desk - an AccuSync AS231WM and there's no smearing of scanlines whatsoever.

I've even tried with the default MAME settings (which are getting better but still crap), and the scanlines are fine - a perfect overlay on top of the image.

I know the ghosting you mean - but the last time I saw it was on a release day PSP with Ridge Racer, but I can quite honestly say I've not seen it at all on scanlines with MAME on any LCD I've tried. There's plenty else wrong with the image, but they never blur away.

Try it on an IPS panel. It's persistence city™. Some people are more sensitive to it than others, too.

Wait a minute, were you running Varth tate'd? You have to run it tate'd to really see the effect.

[Fudoh]

Yes, I've noticed this on big CRTs and low res games. I don't see it at all on an LCD though.

interesting. Are you talking emulation or actual consoles running with something like a XRGB ?

[BuckoA51]

@BuckoA51:
You mean using shaders in Mame?
It doesn't work with Mame for windows, it's only possible with SDLMame for Linux/OSX as far as I know.

Colour me completely confused here then, because I thought you needed to use the Libretro port of Mame to use it with Retroarch. Since Libretro works just fine on Windows it should work?

[cools]

Try it on an IPS panel. It's persistence city™. Some people are more sensitive to it than others, too.

Wait a minute, were you running Varth tate'd? You have to run it tate'd to really see the effect.

Just tried it tated. It's fine.

I think my home laptop has an IPS panel. Not sure what's in these NECs.

Okay - I can see them blur on the really fast scrolling MK title screen (the light sky is fine). My eyes have trouble staying tracked on the scrolling parts of that though. I've checked SF2, and the upwards scrolling part of that is fine - but I'm able to focus on that properly.

But what you're saying won't be solved with anything other than high resolution so the pixels can be truly inactive. If you're not lighting them up they can't persist, surely?

Yes, I've noticed this on big CRTs and low res games. I don't see it at all on an LCD though.

interesting. Are you talking emulation or actual consoles running with something like a XRGB ?

My only experience is with arcade hardware (on CRTs) and MAME/emulation (on both).

Are we all basically saying that IPS panels are awful?