6th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:32 am

Herr Schatten wrote:
j^aws wrote:Ibara Arrange Mode was voted for last year as a single vote?
A mistake, obviously. These happen, you know?

Well, I didn't think it was a mistake because of earlier discussion prior to that final list:

Herr Schatten wrote:I don't think Ibara, Arrange and Black Label should count as one game. Maybe Arrange and BL can be lumped together (I'm not sure since I haven't played BL), but at least Ibara and Ibara Arrange have different enough core features to count as seperate games, I think.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 626#234626

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:37 am

The idea isn't flawed but it'll get us too far - each person would start to indicate their favorite mode. Caravan games would get their few votes split between normal course and time attack... It's a bit impractical if you ask me.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:48 am

Double mode is exactly the same game. It doesn't change anything, except sometimes two powerups come out instead of one. Should a player make a distinction if he only plays a game with his feet, or only with one life? Of course not. Ibara, Ibara Arrange, and Ibara Black Label all have completely different scoring systems. However, I think that Ibara + Arrange should be together, as they are on the same disc on PS2.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:06 am

Double Mode has a different control system/ weapon system/ scoring system/ scoreboard. It's not the same game.

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:22 am

I wrote:I don't think Ibara, Arrange and Black Label should count as one game. Maybe Arrange and BL can be lumped together (I'm not sure since I haven't played BL), but at least Ibara and Ibara Arrange have different enough core features to count as seperate games, I think.

I wrote this last year, but over time I have come to the conclusion that I was mistaken there, because Turrican is right:

Turrican wrote:The idea isn't flawed but it'll get us too far [...] It's a bit impractical if you ask me.

Zebra Airforce is also right:

Zebra Airforce wrote:Double mode is exactly the same game. It doesn't change anything, except sometimes two powerups come out instead of one. Should a player make a distinction if he only plays a game with his feet, or only with one life? Of course not.

j^aws wrote: Double Mode has a different control system/ weapon system/ scoring system/ scoreboard. It's not the same game.

Same level layout, same enemy placement, same bosses = same game.

Feel free to vote for your favourite game mode, though, just be aware that it will end up lumped with the main game.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon May 19, 2008 10:25 am

Same scoreboard = same game.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:46 am

j^aws wrote:Double Mode has a different control system/ weapon system/ scoring system/ scoreboard. It's not the same game.

If it's within one game, then it's the same game. If I install Raiden III, I get both modes. So even if I only like one of them, it's still all Raiden III, anyway.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:00 pm

moozooh wrote:
j^aws wrote:Double Mode has a different control system/ weapon system/ scoring system/ scoreboard. It's not the same game.
If it's within one game, then it's the same game. If I install Raiden III, I get both modes. So even if I only like one of them, it's still all Raiden III, anyway.

I'm not disagreeing with it's "all Raiden III"; I'm fine with that. I'm disagreeing with Raiden III Double Mode is-the-same-game as Raiden III Solo Mode. It clearly isn't...

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:01 pm

That's funny because no one made that point.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:02 pm

j^aws wrote:I'm not disagreeing with it's "all Raiden III"; I'm fine with that. I'm disagreeing with Raiden III Double Mode is-the-same-game as Raiden III Solo Mode. It clearly isn't...

But… isn't it a direct contradiction? It's all Raiden III, yet two different games?

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:04 pm

JoshF wrote:That's funny because no one made that point.

Look back a few posts:

"It's the top 25 shmups of all time, not the top 25 shmups modes"

Ibara Arrange Mode was voted separately last year...

EDIT:

@ Moozooh, see above.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:10 pm

See, I think Ibara arrange being seperate is a mistake, because they come on the same game, and Schatten agrees. Now he is attempting to rectify the situation
(I was going to use a similar loophole to try and get Gunball in, but decided against it

).

cigsthecat · Post by **cigsthecat** » Mon May 19, 2008 8:40 pm

Zebra Airforce wrote:See, I think Ibara arrange being seperate is a mistake, because they come on the same game, and Schatten agrees. Now he is attempting to rectify the situation

The difference is that Ibara was a standalone arcade release. Later the Black Label board came out (separately), and Arrange was put on the PS2 port as a bonus. Ibara Arrange is far more similar to Black Label than Ibara. Those two should be lumped together if anything.

bkk · Post by **bkk** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:11 pm

I'd like to change my Gradius V vote to Stage select, stage 5

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:17 pm

Couldn't find any better Raiden III Double Mode replays; but here's one of the first level:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdFgj2e4KFs

... Anyone who thinks this is the same game as Solo Mode is utterly insane!

it290 · Post by **it290** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:32 pm

Right, so Mushi Arrange, Maniac, Ultra, Original are all different games? They all have different scoreboards, right?

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:52 pm

it290 wrote:Right, so Mushi Arrange, Maniac, Ultra, Original are all different games? They all have different scoreboards, right?

Yep. Each 'game' has its own rules and scoreboard. A 'game' is self contained, i.e. it could exist independently; but the above modes are easily accessible with corresponding scoreboards. Those 'modes' could easily be distributed on 4 different CDs/ PCBs/ downloads etc.; but the games would still be self-contained...

it290 · Post by **it290** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:58 pm

I guess that makes Futari Mushihimesama part V.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Tue May 20, 2008 12:07 am

btw i voted for gun.smoke hard mode get it right lol

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Tue May 20, 2008 2:28 am

I'm changing my Gradius III (arcade) vote to Gradius III (arcade, autofire, missile and shot on same button).

btw i voted for gun.smoke hard mode get it right lol

lololo

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:13 am

j^aws wrote:Couldn't find any better Raiden III Double Mode replays; but here's one of the first level:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdFgj2e4KFs

... Anyone who thinks this is the same game as Solo Mode is utterly insane!

That's like ...solo mode with 2 ships. That changes EVERYTHING! [/sarcasm]

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:30 am

Herr Schatten wrote:
j^aws wrote:Couldn't find any better Raiden III Double Mode replays; but here's one of the first level:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdFgj2e4KFs

... Anyone who thinks this is the same game as Solo Mode is utterly insane!
That's like ...solo mode with 2 ships. That changes EVERYTHING! [/sarcasm]

Seriously though, that fundamentally changes the game mechanics: Two hitboxes that you manage independently, fundamentally affects how you:

- control
- dodge
- die
- bomb
- attack
- score

... in such a way that no other game/mode comes close to playing like it in the entire GENRE! [/ truth]

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:34 am

Hey a double play.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:36 am

Play any game in 2p mode controlling both ships simultaneously. That will fundamentally affect how you:

- control
- dodge
- die
- bomb
- attack
- score

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:36 am

JoshF wrote:Hey a double play.

Example?

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:43 am

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ToBdzV7w5Pc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cbXx_vJsCG8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HXNxE0WuD7U

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:46 am

Do you get a single score on a scoreboard for those plays for one credit?

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:50 am

ikaruga has a table for two player scores (a combined score, ala raiden 3).

i can't see what you mean here jaws, it's a mode within the same game. if we were o apply the same principle to say armed police batrider, you'd be splitting the vote four ways (training, normal, advanced, special).

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:57 am

jpj wrote:ikaruga has a table for two player scores (a combined score, ala raiden 3).

i can't see what you mean here jaws, it's a mode within the same game. if we were o apply the same principle to say armed police batrider, you'd be splitting the vote four ways (training, normal, advanced, special).

I'm fine with not splitting the vote still.

IIRC, Ikaruga still requires 2 credits for two players. I'm trying to show that the 'gameplay' fundamentally changes and basically there is nothing else like it that measures your play in that game/ mode...

Gunroar comes close, can't think of anything else though...

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Tue May 20, 2008 11:04 am

yeah, ikaruga does require two credits for that. the only other game i know of that lets you play it two-player (or double-play) on a credit is.......raiden 4

i know you really love the double-play aspect of raiden 3. maybe it's a question of semantics, but "game" to me means a product. whereas "mode" is the rules/parameters. ie one "game" can have many "modes" - eg mushihimesama