Death Smiles: Countdown to North America Invasion

[Icarus]

my problem isn't that the title's horizontal, just that it (usually) doesn't warn you of attacks coming from a weak/unexpected side, a personal pet peeve of mine.

Say what? Just checked out the 6min long vid on YT and you can clearly see warnings flash up when enemies are coming on the left side of the screen. Very Technosoft-ish with the warning flashes and fast gameplay. Attacks from the top, left and bottom are also to be expected in horis, IMO.

Also, after seeing the videos (thanks to those posting them), I have to retract my earlier statement and must admit, the game does look quite classy. Nicely graphic design, and patterns/stages look good. Nice to see Cave haven't skimped on bullets despite the game being a hori.

Route selection reminds me of Darius for some reason.

Shame I'll not be able to play this until the PCB drops in price. ;_;

[Rob]

Route selection reminds me of Darius for some reason.

It's more like Sol Divide, right? Probably play all (most?) of the stages, just in slightly different order. With graphics that quality, unlike Darius.

[system11]

Um.

How much do new PCBs cost again? That looks awesome.

[RyanDG]

Um.

How much do new PCBs cost again? That looks awesome.

Yeah it does... I think I'm going to have to sell off some more NEO GEO games to get this. My wife is telling me that my budget doesn't allow for any more PCBs this year.

[BulletMagnet]

Just checked out the 6min long vid on YT and you can clearly see warnings flash up when enemies are coming on the left side of the screen. Very Technosoft-ish with the warning flashes and fast gameplay.

At some points it has the warnings, but at others where it would seem called for it doesn't, and I can't figure out why for the life of me - I'd compare it to a developer switching from really bright bullets to completely invisi-bullets throughout the course of a game, it just doesn't make much sense to me why they wouldn't just stick with one or the other (preferably the one that leads to the least frustration).

Maybe the low quality/scanlines/etc. of these early videos is making it more difficult for me to see how often the warning thingy is utilized, but from here it looks to only be an occasional occurrence. If this turns out to be untrue, then I can't find much else to fault from what I've seen of the game so far. Hopefully some clarification will arrive from someone here who gets to play the thing.

Attacks from the top, left and bottom are also to be expected in horis, IMO.

Didn't we already discuss this at some point (I vaguely recall a Vespa being mentioned frequently)? Anyhow, as I've said, I don't mind stuff coming from different parts of the screen, but I do mind being blindsided, especially at regular intervals.

Back to other aspects of the game, I'm trying to get a sense of what the scoring system involves...at a glance, it looks like some sort of variation on "build up the meter, then cash it in and get lots of items" thing seen in a handful of Cave titles lately, most notably Mushi Futari. Maybe someone else has noticed something more than I have.

[Twiddle]

You're not expected to be in the places where the game DOESN'T warn you.

[kemical]

You're not expected to be in the places where the game DOESN'T warn you.

word, and for all we know it could be doing a simple check that gives you the warning only if the enemy path is going to collide with your position or distance from spawning screen edge, or if its an especially large enemy.

[Icarus]

Let's face it BM. If a game had to warn you of every trap coming, it'd be a very easy game and/or a poorly designed one.

Also, I agree with kemical, perhaps the game checks to see if you're about to be hit by a trap and throws up a warning. The game is reportedly aimed at the non-hardcore crowd, after all. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Cave could be adding some small assistance for those who don't play shooters day in, day out.

(EDIT: Also noted that both comments above slightly contradict each other.)

[BulletMagnet]

Let's face it BM. If a game had to warn you of every trap coming, it'd be a very easy game and/or a poorly designed one.

Though I suppose you could argue till the cows come home about what sort of stuff is "worth" throwing a warning out about and what stuff isn't, I honestly don't believe that a game has to toss near-unavoidable-unless-you've-played-before deaths at you to be challenging or well-designed. Yeah, I know arcade games are meant to steal quarters, but I still tend to say that memory deaths are to "challenge" as most unlockables are to "longevity" and "replay value" - a cheap and in the end worthless easy way out.

In any event, I've griped enough about this - I'll shut up until any further info comes forth. On a different note, however, at the end of the 2P video I linked to, the last death appears to have been caused, at least in part, due to a nasty bit of slowdown disappearance at an inopportune time - hopefully that won't be an issue.

Also, I agree with kemical, perhaps the game checks to see if you're about to be hit by a trap and throws up a warning.

Hm, has any other game ever used a system like that before? I can't recall one off the top of my head...if not, it sounds very simple and effective, at least on paper, and as such it'd be a marvel if that were the case (then again, shmup developers are rather infamous for going astray when it comes to seemingly "duh!" design choices, aren't they?).

(EDIT: Also noted that both comments above slightly contradict each other.)

S'alright, speaking in behalf of a Cave product is not your usual territory.

[Icarus]

Though I suppose you could argue till the cows come home about what sort of stuff is "worth" throwing a warning out about and what stuff isn't, I honestly don't believe that a game has to toss near-unavoidable-unless-you've-played-before deaths at you to be challenging or well-designed. Yeah, I know arcade games are meant to steal quarters, but I still tend to say that memory deaths are to "challenge" as most unlockables are to "longevity" and "replay value" - a cheap and in the end worthless easy way out.

The same could be said of all horis.

Given that almost all horis have some kind of landscape design which factor into stage layout, having memoriser parts are part and parcel of the design of the game. Working out where the traps are and springing them is part of hori shooting game strategy.

Whether or not devs bother to throw in warnings is left to taste. Some games could do with them, however.

S'alright, speaking in behalf of a Cave product is not your usual territory.

Mmm... tasty trollbait.
I'd throw out something longer than "learn to not suck at games" but I can't be bothered at the moment.

[GaijinPunch]

Um.

How much do new PCBs cost again? That looks awesome.

Start off at about 240,000 yen, drop to 180,000 very soon after.

[Zebra Airforce]

Let's face it BM. If a game had to warn you of every trap coming, it'd be a very easy game and/or a poorly designed one.

Though I suppose you could argue till the cows come home about what sort of stuff is "worth" throwing a warning out about and what stuff isn't, I honestly don't believe that a game has to toss near-unavoidable-unless-you've-played-before deaths at you to be challenging or well-designed. Yeah, I know arcade games are meant to steal quarters, but I still tend to say that memory deaths are to "challenge" as most unlockables are to "longevity" and "replay value" - a cheap and in the end worthless easy way out.

In any event, I've griped enough about this - I'll shut up until any further info comes forth. On a different note, however, at the end of the 2P video I linked to, the last death appears to have been caused, at least in part, due to a nasty bit of slowdown disappearance at an inopportune time - hopefully that won't be an issue.

Also, I agree with kemical, perhaps the game checks to see if you're about to be hit by a trap and throws up a warning.

Hm, has any other game ever used a system like that before? I can't recall one off the top of my head...if not, it sounds very simple and effective, at least on paper, and as such it'd be a marvel if that were the case (then again, shmup developers are rather infamous for going astray when it comes to seemingly "duh!" design choices, aren't they?).

(EDIT: Also noted that both comments above slightly contradict each other.)

S'alright, speaking in behalf of a Cave product is not your usual territory.

Actually, it looks like it warns you of enemies that are coming from the direction your character is not currently facing. Either way, this looks amazing.

[BulletMagnet]

Given that almost all horis have some kind of landscape design which factor into stage layout, having memoriser parts are part and parcel of the design of the game. Working out where the traps are and springing them is part of hori shooting game strategy.

I never quite understood why horis seem to have adopted this sort of thing semi-exclusively (a handful of verts include such elements, mostly older ones though) - theoretically, couldn't "vert style" gameplay be done just as easily in a horizontal format, and vice versa? You still move your craft around and shoot the same way, regardless of format, at least it'd seem so.

In any event, perhaps you're thinking of something different than I am when you refer to a "trap" (no 4chan-esque comments please ), but I'm still unconvinced that the inclusion of a "landscape" means you have to also include insta-death lazers (or their kin) to make it "work"...at least, as you say, without something resembling a fair chance to see it coming. Offhand, I haven't played very far into Border Down, but at least early on it seems to avoid throwing most any "surprise, you're dead!" moments at you...maybe it goes more "traditional" later on?

Mmm... tasty trollbait.

Oh come on, I was just joking, lighten up - in the event that I'm actually out to get on your nerves, you'll know it instantly, methinks it's safe to say.

[GaijinPunch]

Your eyes move (and thus brain computes) differently. That's where the problem lies.

[Icarus]

I never quite understood why horis seem to have adopted this sort of thing semi-exclusively (a handful of verts include such elements, mostly older ones though) - theoretically, couldn't "vert style" gameplay be done just as easily in a horizontal format, and vice versa? You still move your craft around and shoot the same way, regardless of format, at least it'd seem so.

They tried that, and ended up with Progear.
Didn't Ikeda himself say Progear was a failed experiment? (Care to correct me, GP/TWE?)

In any event, perhaps you're thinking of something different than I am when you refer to a "trap" (no 4chan-esque comments please ), but I'm still unconvinced that the inclusion of a "landscape" means you have to also include insta-death lazers (or their kin) to make it "work"...at least, as you say, without something resembling a fair chance to see it coming.

Care to show me where "insta-death lasers or their kin" appear in Death Smiles?
Haven't seen anything resembling instant unavoidable death yet.

Offhand, I haven't played very far into Border Down, but at least early on it seems to avoid throwing most any "surprise, you're dead!" moments at you...maybe it goes more "traditional" later on?

Get past stage4 and into the 6(letter) stages and we'll talk.

[gunbird18]

Sorry that I am late to the video watching party...

All I can say is AMAZING!!! It is so cool to see what happens when they give Joker Jun major control over the game development!

Did any of your jaws drop when you saw the ship harbor stage??? That has to be one of the most detailed stages in gaming history! Another Junya masterpiece!

And so much action! If that is on SH3 hardware, as Dave K. says, that has to be squeezing every ounce of resource out of that tiny little board! And this is actually a nice change after all of the verts. I bet Cave felt the pressure that if this was going to be a departure from verts to hori that it was going to have to be a knockout. I'll wager that this game will turn quite a few heads in the Japanese arcades. Very exciting!

[system11]

Um.

How much do new PCBs cost again? That looks awesome.

Start off at about 240,000 yen, drop to 180,000 very soon after.

I think I'll buy it at the bolded price point.

[kemical]

about the vert style stuff on hori... fire up mame and rotate dodonpachi so that you're playing it as a horizontal scrolling game, map your movement to match.. its a totally different game, and a lot harder for me personally and my play style is completely thrown off, getting stuck in corners while trying to dodge bullets, etc..

*edit* actually that isn't a totally fair comparison, since it would be like turning a painting on its side, the composition is no longer balanced in the way intended, and your eye is likely to be pulled around in odd ways or drawn off in spots

[EOJ]

Um.

How much do new PCBs cost again? That looks awesome.

Start off at about 240,000 yen, drop to 180,000 very soon after.

I think I'll buy it at the bolded price point.

It really depends on the print run. Mushi Futari started at around $1900, but dropped to $1400 only 2-3 weeks later. Yagawa games like PS and MMP start off high ($2000+), and take a long time to come down in price, which leads me to believe they don't make as many of them. I'd bet they'll print a ton of these, so wait a couple months.

Though I wonder if this one might get a port, due to it being a hori? Certainly helps its chances a bit, I'd think. Though it might just be a PSP port or something.

[Battlesmurf]

lol..it looks wonderful. Am I the only gore-hound here kinda hoping that it'd be a cunt-hair more Guwange-ish? I heard it being loosely compared to that in the beginning- I think if I hit an Ogre with a super lightening bolt in real life that there would be just a tad more than a puffy ball of fire.

But the vid is kinda low quality, so I dunno : )

(it's not just me, right?)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsgRMH3ill0

[Shalashaska]

Wow this game looks great! Love the bomb explosion. I was saving up for a Mushi Futari board but I might hold off for a bit now....

[GaijinPunch]

It really depends on the print run. Mushi Futari started at around $1900, but dropped to $1400 only 2-3 weeks later.

They actually all start at the same retail price: 248,000 yen. A lot depends on the FX market but I would guess around $2200 at the time of release for our US people. Doesn't look like the dollar will get any better, damnit.

When it makes it's first drop is a bit of a variable but it seems to always be within the first month. It was for Galuda II, Futari, Ibara (and it kept going), and Pork. I can't recall Pink Sweets... was trying to ignore it.

[EOJ]

They tried that, and ended up with Progear.
Didn't Ikeda himself say Progear was a failed experiment? (Care to correct me, GP/TWE?)

Yes, that's basically what he said. Keep in mind this isn't a maniac like Progear, and the lead programmer isn't Ikeda (though it looks like he did add some touches, and maybe fine tuned it, he is the new head of Cave's programming after all).

[Frederik]

I am not a big fan of horis either, but I have to say that it gives Cave some different graphical opportunities - namely the very smooth parallax I´ve seen in those videos. And yeah, it looks a lot more like a proper hori than Progear.

[Icarus]

Interesting scoring system.

- Destroy enemies with Shot to generate standard items that increment counter at bottom corner of screen. Max is 1,000. What you destroy enemies with seems to influence whether or not you get items - I think you get items if your Option deals the final hit. Appears to be that way from the vids. You seem to get a few items for using a Bomb, as well.

- Item vacuuming can be done by releasing or using standard Shot as opposed to Laser or Multidirectional Lock, by the look of it.

- Once base counter hits 1,000, it'll trigger the second scoring mode and start counting down rapidly. In the second scoring mode, everything your Shot impacts with will generate a spray of small skull items, and everything that is destroyed generates large skull items, and these items seem to be worth something like [100 + (incrementing counter up to 10k)]. These items don't seem to vanish if they hit the landscape either, which makes for some interesting strategy (namely, using the landscape to "catch" big groups of items for later retrieval).

Watch this YT vid for an example of it in action. Looks like a decent system.

[sven666]

i dont know.. i think it looks pretty manic so far? keep in mind the difficulty is usually dumbed down a couple of notches for these shows aswell.. i think we all remember how ridiculosly easy MMP looked initially.

[Fu]

Maybe the difficulty will be like in Muchi Muchi Pork, not too hard during the first 3 stages and becomes insane.

[PROMETHEUS]

They tried that, and ended up with Progear.
Didn't Ikeda himself say Progear was a failed experiment? (Care to correct me, GP/TWE?)

Yes, that's basically what he said. Keep in mind this isn't a maniac like Progear, and the lead programmer isn't Ikeda (though it looks like he did add some touches, and maybe fine tuned it, he is the new head of Cave's programming after all).

I still don't understand why he seems to think that. I don't like Progear myself (because I dislike the art style) but I think it has really good and solid gameplay. What's wrong with this game ?

[GaijinPunch]

i dont know.. i think it looks pretty manic so far? keep in mind the difficulty is usually dumbed down a couple of notches for these shows aswell.. i think we all remember how ridiculosly easy MMP looked initially.

Actually the difficulty is almost always jacked up a few notches for loke tests & shows.

[Necronom]

@Prometheus
Imho Progear is somehow overloaded. The scoring system and bullet hell action together don't really work on a hori level. I really enjoy the scoring system and overall gameplay in Guwange but Progear just annoys me.
Though I do like Tumiki Fighters so I guess it's more because of the scoring system than the bullet hell...
Anyway, Death Smiles (thank God they changed the name) looks like it could work way better as a hori though it's pretty frustrating that the majority of the people here won't have a chance to play it