Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[KatKya]

These presentation monitors with DA-15 connectors seem to never care about conforming to anyone standard. I also bought a standard VGA->MAC DA-15 for my Mitsubshi when I first got it, and was to the point where I thought the monitor itself was damaged since I couldn't get it to work properly.

Turned out it used it's own pinout that was honestly closer to VGA than MAC-15. 1,2,3->RGB, with two sets of sync pins based on source type.

[xga]

Yes, I tried both RGB ports. One is a normal PC 15 pin VGA connector, the other is the old Apple MAC II / Quadra 15 pin connector. I made a cable to convert the Apple 15 pin connector to PC VGA in case there was something wrong with the VGA input. I did wonder if there was perhaps something wrong with the sync circuit, so I took it to a trusted monitor repair tech for him to inspect and repair. He replaced a few caps, but could not find anything wrong with it.

In my testing with it, I threw everything at it - Mega Drive, PS1, PC with an ATI card running Groovymame, test pattern generators etc, but I could not get 15kHz via RGB out of it. The best I could get was 24kHz, which I verified with a video signal generator and medium res game on my Groovymame PC.

I would love to be proved wrong and perhaps there is something wrong with my monitor, so please do your testing with a console and let us know how you go. I used a Sync Strike to go from SCART to VGA in my testing.

Do you still have the Mac pinout to PC VGA pinout diagram somewhere xga?
I've got a MAC port on the NEC XM37 Plus and I'd like to make a PC VGA adapter for it. (I bought an adapter online but it doesn't work).
I know what the pinout for the MAC port is(I have the manual for the NEC), but I'm pretty sure that making an adapter is gonna be trickier than just finding the equivalent pin on the VGA connector.
Since you had successful making a functional adapter, I'm interested in seeing your diagram for it, if you don't mind...

This is the reference I used to make the Apple 15 pin connector to PC VGA cable adaptor.

[FinalBaton]

Here's the one from the NEC manual :



I see things on the right that aren't on the left

Is this gonna be super complicated? Like having to combine 2 pins on 1 side to 1 pin on the other side, add capacitors etc etc?

(I'm a complete n00b when it comes to this, as is evident by this post. Connecting 1 pin to it's equivalent on the other connector, I can manage that I guess. But more complicated than that I'm not sure I will be fine doing it...)

[Einzelherz]

I'd assume that if you wire up R G B and the Syncs as well as all of the grounds you'd be fine.

Likely those other things, specifically on the mac version are for mac related things that you shouldn't be worried about.

[DrKingSchultz]

Decent for any one in uk, looks clean

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-PVM-20L2 ... SwmtJXXYzd

[FinalBaton]

I'd assume that if you wire up R G B and the Syncs as well as all of the grounds you'd be fine.

Likely those other things, specifically on the mac version are for mac related things that you shouldn't be worried about.

can I wire any ground pin from one port to any other ground pin of the other port? or are these ground pins each tied to a particular channel and I should transpose that on the other port? (again : I'm a complete n00b here )

[atheistgod1999]

I'm wondering: did xga use composite or H+V sync? Maybe it just doesn't accept 15kHz over H+V sync for some reason.

Also: where's the best place to buy an RGBS female SCART to male DE-15 adapter?

[Einzelherz]

I'd assume that if you wire up R G B and the Syncs as well as all of the grounds you'd be fine.

Likely those other things, specifically on the mac version are for mac related things that you shouldn't be worried about.

can I wire any ground pin from one port to any other ground pin of the other port? or are these ground pins each tied to a particular channel and I should transpose that on the other port? (again : I'm a complete n00b here )

My understanding is that ground is ground. On my few connectors I've slapped together I wire them all together.

[xga]

I'm wondering: did xga use composite or H+V sync? Maybe it just doesn't accept 15kHz over H+V sync for some reason.

Also: where's the best place to buy an RGBS female SCART to male DE-15 adapter?

For console's, I used an Arcade Forge Sync Strike (SCART to VGA).

For my GroovyMAME PC running the 15kHz CRT_EmuDriver with an ATI card, it was used with a normal VGA cable, so RGBHV.

A Sync Strike can be purchased from http://arcadeforge.net/Scaler-and-Strik ... e::15.html

[atheistgod1999]

I think I should mention something else that happened on Saturday:

While it's not a definite answer as to whether or not I can take the ViewSonic, they did say I could take another "TV"...that's a 27" Trinitron. It was manufactured in 1990 and has a couple composite, as well as an S-Video, A/V inputs. I turned it on and saw with the static that the convergence is way off. The thing is, the misconvergence is uniform across the entire screen, so would it be easy to fix?

Also, there's a few issues with the CRT TV I'm using right now. It's a Toshiba 27A43 FYI.

I got an official SNES/N64/NGC S-Video cable in the mail today and was trying it out when I noticed this nasty ghosting in an area of high contrast:


I plugged in my PS2 with S-Video to see whether or not it was an issue with the cable or the TV, and the same thing happened:


Then, when I switched it to component, the issue went away:


Also, not even component looks good due to some Scan Velocity Modulation that can't be disabled anywhere in the menus, not even service. I turned down the sharpness to minimum and it's still annoying as hell. Look at the pictures below. It's not convergence that's causing the fringing:


Proof that it's SVM causing the fringing (look at the horizontal transition from the dark skeleton eye to the guy's arm):


I pulled out my BVM, tested it on that, and it didn't have that issue (but the white line between the orange and blue in the gauge is actually supposed to be there), so it's the TV that's doing it and not a visual effect in the game.

I actually got the back shell off a few weeks ago and took a few pictures of it and posted them in a thread, but no one replied. Does no one know how to disable SVM? Because I read on multiple threads on forums like AVS that I have to cut a certain wire supplying the SVM circuit with power, and if I cut it it'll simply disable the SVM with no side effects.

[MKL]

Does no one know how to disable SVM?

Unplug the SVM coil. A couple of wires coming from the the convergence ring assembly at the end of the tube. I don't see it in your pics though so this TV may not have SVM at all.

[atheistgod1999]

Does no one know how to disable SVM?

Unplug the SVM coil. A couple of wires coming from the the convergence ring assembly at the end of the tube.

Is it possible to point to it, using the pictures I took?

EDIT: It actually does have SVM; the Amazon page for it says it has it in the description:

Meanwhile, velocity-scan modulation improves the definition at picture edges, creating sharper images by slowing the CRT (cathode-ray tube) beam's horizontal scanning during demanding work--say, when rendering transitions from light to dark parts of an image--and speeding it up when scanning easily rendered sections, like broad dark areas.

Also, when doing the red grid pattern in the NES 240p Test Suite, I noticed that the vertical grid lines were a lighter red (sorta like crushed whites) than the horizontal lines, which I think indicates that there's SVM at work here. I can also see haloing that I can't capture on camera.

[MKL]

This is what a SVM coil looks like:



If you don't have something like that then there's no SVM in that TV (in fact I think there isn't).

[atheistgod1999]

What about these wires I circled twice?

[bobrocks95]

Can you not find a service manual for your model? That will be the definitive answer.

[atheistgod1999]

Can you not find a service manual for your model? That will be the definitive answer.

I did. The only time it mentions it is at the top of the CRT block diagram, where it says "CRT Block Diagram (W/O SVM)".

[bobrocks95]

Fair enough, I've only read Sony service manuals so no way to tell how in-depth they are by comparison. My bad

[atheistgod1999]

How about this one?


I don't see how a CRT without SVM could have haloing as well as crushed blacks and whites on dramatic transitions horizontally.

[MKL]

That's just the ribbon cable from the main chassis to the neckboard. There is no SVM on your TV, deal with it. You even posted a schematics excerpt that says "without SVM". Maybe there is a version "with SVM" but it's not yours. Yours chassis is too basic, SVM circuitry is located on a sub-board with a couple of wires going to a coil on the neck of the CRT. Yours doesn't have any of that.

[atheistgod1999]

That's just the ribbon cable from the main chassis to the neckboard. There is no SVM on your TV, deal with it. You even posted a schematics excerpt that says "without SVM". Maybe there is a version "with SVM" but it's not yours. Yours chassis is too basic, SVM circuitry is located on a sub-board with a couple of wires going to a coil on the neck of the CRT. Yours doesn't have any of that.

In that case, what's causing the haloing, as well as crushed blacks and whites, that outline solid colors on vertical edges? I'm genuinely curious about this.

[MKL]

I don't know, maybe it's just the TV that sucks or needs some servicing. Component doesn't look that bad, of course if you compare it to the RGB of a BVM...

[cfx]

.

[atheistgod1999]

I don't know, maybe it's just the TV that sucks or needs some servicing. Component doesn't look that bad, of course if you compare it to the RGB of a BVM...

First off, I was actually using S-Video on the BVM because I couldn't find my RCA-to-BNC adapters, but I did find my 4-pin-DIN-to-BNC adapter. I don't even have a PlayStation RGB cable.

I was actually able to fix the color fringing in Component in the service menu by adjusting these 2 settings called "CB DL" and "CR DL" that I made an educated guess as to what they did. It seems like the Pb signal was slightly delayed, and SVM had nothing to do with the issue; the TV does have it, but it seems to be disabled when sharpness is turned down enough.

However, the settings didn't do anything to fix S-Video, which I think has the same issue. I plugged in my PS3 via S-Video, played a test pattern DVD, selected a vertical color bar pattern, and noticed there was a black gap between the red and blue bars in S-Video. In Component, there's no gap.

[amaradona]

Just wanted some help for the ps2 480i and GSM.

In the nutshell,what is the best PQ between forcing 480p with GSM or using a deinterlacer such as the mini or the optoma on a multisync BVM?
As I mentioned before I do not mind the lag.
I ask because the creator's description of the GSM is that it converts on the fly the signal so it is more or less a deinterlacer.

"GOAL
GSM intends to make on-the-fly conversion from the original graphic mode of PS2 game (or application) choosen by user, to the ones he/she wants to force.

One of benefits of using GSM is have a progressive scan output for a game originally designed to use interlace output. Or have a VGA output in your CRT/LCD Monitor for your preferred games. It seems great, isn't ii?

Well, GSM just makes a simple upscaling. It doesn't making interpolation (i.e. it doesn't add extra pixels / lines). So it doesn't increase the internal(=original=source) resolution, only the output (=forced=target) one.

So, there is no miracle here... The greater the quality of source (original) resolution of the game, the better will be the results that will be displayed on target (forced) resolutions - specially on the higher ones, where the images naturally tend to be pixelized. BTW, see "List of games using your PS2 to the maximum" topic below."


Then I suppose that a more modern solution such as the scalers, with their deinterlacing capabilities, I mentioned before would be able to do a better job.

And by the way, just FYI, I learned the hardway that the HD SDI doesnt support 480p. Just in case you wanted to connect your hdmi device on multisync BVM with a hdmi to hd sdi converter.

[atheistgod1999]

The pictures aren't that good to be sure, but I think it's a case of unrealistic expectations of what a lower-end consumer CRT looks like when you're close to it and looking for flaws.

It's actually not a lower-end consumer CRT. This thing also has a 3-line digital comb filter and can resolve every pixel in a horizontal resolution of 720 with S-Video or Component with ~1.5 phosphor line triads per pixel.

[bobrocks95]

Just wanted some help for the ps2 480i and GSM.

In the nutshell,what is the best PQ between forcing 480p with GSM or using a deinterlacer such as the mini or the optoma on a multisync BVM?
As I mentioned before I do not mind the lag.
I ask because the creator's description of the GSM is that it converts on the fly the signal so it is more or less a deinterlacer.

"GOAL
GSM intends to make on-the-fly conversion from the original graphic mode of PS2 game (or application) choosen by user, to the ones he/she wants to force.

One of benefits of using GSM is have a progressive scan output for a game originally designed to use interlace output. Or have a VGA output in your CRT/LCD Monitor for your preferred games. It seems great, isn't ii?

Well, GSM just makes a simple upscaling. It doesn't making interpolation (i.e. it doesn't add extra pixels / lines). So it doesn't increase the internal(=original=source) resolution, only the output (=forced=target) one.

So, there is no miracle here... The greater the quality of source (original) resolution of the game, the better will be the results that will be displayed on target (forced) resolutions - specially on the higher ones, where the images naturally tend to be pixelized. BTW, see "List of games using your PS2 to the maximum" topic below."


Then I suppose that a more modern solution such as the scalers, with their deinterlacing capabilities, I mentioned before would be able to do a better job.

And by the way, just FYI, I learned the hardway that the HD SDI doesnt support 480p. Just in case you wanted to connect your hdmi device on multisync BVM with a hdmi to hd sdi converter.

On the fly as in it is intercepting system calls and making sure they're not using an interlaced mode. It makes the PS2 render at 480p(ish) and will give you superior results. Of course, the overall game compatibility is pretty low so keep that in mind.

The pictures aren't that good to be sure, but I think it's a case of unrealistic expectations of what a lower-end consumer CRT looks like when you're close to it and looking for flaws.

It's actually not a lower-end consumer CRT. This thing also has a 3-line digital comb filter and can resolve every pixel in a horizontal resolution of 720 with S-Video or Component with ~1.5 phosphor line triads per pixel.

Could have fooled me, my Trinitron has like 5 additional daughterboards, yours has a tiny mainboard and a tiny neckboard. It's not a contest, but that definitely doesn't look like a high-end consumer set.

[atheistgod1999]

Could have fooled me, my Trinitron has like 5 additional daughterboards, yours has a tiny mainboard and a tiny neckboard. It's not a contest, but that definitely doesn't look like a high-end consumer set.

When was your Trinitron manufactured? The Toshiba I'm using was manufactured in 2003.

Also, I was using a cell-phone camera to take pictures. It was hard to focus; that's why the pictures are blurry (plus they're JPEGs). I took out my dad's $600 Nikon camera and took a few lossless NEF (but imgur converted them to JPEGs anyway) pics of my (non-1chip) SNES over S-Video to do it better justice (click the images to see the full-size versions):

[Ed Oscuro]

Some advances in semiconductor tech allowed Sony to reduce the number of boards in their late-model sets, to just one main board by 2006 at latest. Maybe the highest end Wega has a couple daughterboards still but it should be fewer.

That Toshiba board does look a bit simple compared to my 27FS120 but it's in the ballpark.

[atheistgod1999]

EDIT: I don't like these pics.

[Skips]

So I got that Sony GVM-2020 last night and I can say I was pretty damned disappointed. First of all the monitor I received was not NIB, it was a used one. Although David calibrated the geometry well the convergence on the left side was shit. So the long unanswered question you see occasionally about those GVM's on eBay can finally be answered, they are not as good as the guy claims. Avoid buying the monitors from him. I had a problem with getting it to sync at first and called him up to make sure this is normal for a GVM-2020. This one is different than PVM's because if it has a sync signal it dislikes it simply powers off the CRT until you feed it one it likes. It makes you think the Monitor is malfunctioning if you have not seen it before. Anyway he was pretty rude on the phone and he talks down to you. He has a huge air of arrogance about him and keeps repeating how perfectly they calibrate and test all their monitors. I came close to raising my voice with the guy because of how frustrating he was to talk to. If you want a GVM-2020 its best to look elsewhere even though they are getting hard to find.

The model of monitor itself is good though, its about on par with some arcade monitors. It has a nice vibrant display and the scanlines are not super thick. To be honest unless you are looking for a multisync monitor there really is not anything special about this one. If you just need 240p/480i I recommend picking up any of the 20 inch PVM's in its place as this monitor's video quality sits between that of a PVM-2030 and a PVM-1954Q. You also can not calibrate much on it without opening it. There is no OSD, its all knobs and pots. This monitor is all plastic inside so unless you ship it freight good luck getting it to you in one piece. It is much more fragile than a PVM.

I am going to try to correct some of the convergence issues before posting any pictures. I was so pissed off over this I ordered a 14L5 today from someone who actually calibrates these things (unlike this guy).