Samsung F4500 plasma bargain for 480p sources

[22point8]

Go to input, press tools and edit name to pc or dvi pc.

[wildchild22]

Okay PC mode is 38.3 ms
game mode is 37.1


So really no difference.

[Josh128]

I posted this awhile back.

It seems it always measures 38.3 ms same as my samsung pn50c490 plasma in gamer mode. The pn50c490 is almost 100 ms without gamer mode selected.

The lag measures 38.3 ms with the Leo Bodnar 1080p@60hz lag tester with gamer mode enabled or disabled. Gamer mode does not help at all.

Sorry I missed that. My photo tests show between 30 and 48 ms, so thats right in line with what I expected. I cant control shutter speed other than using flash or not, so most likely some of the range difference in my tests are related to different shutter speeds. I really wish I had a better camera to do some better photo lag tests and also photobomb this thread with some better images!

Perhaps you can also share your thoughts on the implications of the 38ms lag in real gameplay, but for me, its very acceptable/essentially unnoticeable. Ive experienced more noticeable lag using USB controllers in certain emulators such as Magic Engine on PC than I do with consoles on this set. Perhaps hyper-competitive SF3 or FPS gamers might have legitimate issues with it, but I can play my Ninja Gaiden, Killer Instinct, Gradius V, Axelay, and Mega Man on it without the slightest problem...

[Xan]

As I mentioned earlier PC mode makes the colors look quite different and green-ish for me, also makes the image a lot fuzzier.

[22point8]

In PC Mode the sharpness absolutely has to be 50 or it blurs. As for green tinted I might have a way for you to at least set the white balance low end (near black) settings, but it will have to wait for now, basically there is a test pattern like the flashing brightness bars, but has red, green, blue, cyan, magenta and yellow, and they all 'cut off' at certain levels, I will look at the pattern, see where each cuts off and you should be able to determine how to set your low end white balance to match.

EDIT: Ok, I tried it and I don't think that method would work.

[Josh128]

I'd be wary of using PC Mode for pretty much anything on this set anyway-- it shows no measured difference in lag time and I find it severely affects picture quality, at least for motion video. I was using it for my PC, then I bought an HDMI switch, and I recently noticed the OTA and satellite channels just did not have the pop they used to. I realized that because of the switch the input was still in PC mode for my TV viewing-- I switched it back to my preferred Standard>Warm 1 settings, and the difference was like night and day, it was MUCH better looking.

I guess you would just have to see what you prefer for PC and consoles, but since Game Mode and PC mode dont seem to affect lag whatsoever, you may get much better PQ by not using them. I am using Game Mode for my consoles-- but thats only because I noticed some strange artifacts/issues with scrolling 2D backgrounds in 240p games if I didnt use it. It was probably related to a certain setting in standard mode, but I never did pin down which it was, so I just use Game Mode.

As far as Game Mode affecting PQ-- it does as well-- I have seen the difference in Resident Evil 4 on GC on the BFXZA model set. Textures looked more grainy/harsh in Game Mode, at least on that game.

[22point8]

I'll run a check on mine later in game mode. I was wondering, are the menu options (range) any different between your A and B models? I seem to recall someone on AVS saying something along those lines. My F4900 was only made in an 'A' model and I guess the F4500 'B' is the same as the European H4500. Maybe PC mode is better on the 'A' than the 'B'.

[Xan]

I can second the remark about 240p/288p motion in game mode, I've played a bit of PAL Wipeout 1 on it and comparing on/off, there was a difference.

[Josh128]

I'll run a check on mine later in game mode. I was wondering, are the menu options (range) any different between your A and B models? I seem to recall someone on AVS saying something along those lines. My F4900 was only made in an 'A' model and I guess the F4500 'B' is the same as the European H4500. Maybe PC mode is better on the 'A' than the 'B'.

The PC mode degradation I experienced with the OTA HD channels was my AFXZA model, so I dont know about that. I will also check into the Game Mode ON vs. OFF to see if I can find what causes the scrolling distortion with Game Mode OFF. I noticed it first when trying Decapattack on the Genesis.

The Game mode ON degradation I experienced with Resident Evil 4 was on the BFXZA.

As far as Menu differences between the AFXZA and BFXZA, I have something called "Expert Pattern" on the AFXZA Advanced Menu that gives me 2 choices of PLUGE patterns. This menu item does not exist on my 4500 and 5300 BFXZA models.

[22point8]

I think I remember what the difference was now, the mid point in the white balance controls are 25 on the 'A' and 0 on the 'B'. The Expert Pattern has a brightness and contrast pattern, which isn't that useful, but it also has a colour bars pattern that you can use with the blue only mode to set colour.

[Josh128]

Yes, I found the color pattern to be quite useful, but the contrast pattern fairly useless as well.

On another note, I just fired up the Genesis and Decapattack to check on the weird scrolling issues on 240p games. Turns out its the dreaded "Digital Clean View"-- the same one that essentially ruins 480i content in dark scenes (as I mentioned on the AVS Forums about MGS3).

I also noticed that the audio much louder in Game Mode ON, than OFF. Thats strange, but its WAY louder.

So, in essence, if you turn off "Digital Clean View", theres no real advantage to Game Mode ON other than louder audio. Digital Clean View just completely screws up motion, especially on dark scenes/object. I played around with MPEG Noise Filter in the 240p games, and couldnt see any difference. This may help improve motion video quality.

[22point8]

I haven't used the speakers in a while so I wouldn't know, I had a Yamaha YAS-101 soundbar, and in the black friday sales replaced it with a YSP-1400.

[andykara2003]

I'm on the brink of getting the 43" version of this - I have a couple of questions if anyone can help me?

Firstly, I currently use a NEC XM29 for my Wii & 'Cube 480p stuff. It's fantastic at this - the rough Wii output looks just amazing. The CRT 'anti aliasing' effect virtually eliminates jaggies yet the image remains sharp. Both the Wii & cube almost look like different consoles on this CRT compared to anything I've used previously.. I'm not too worried about the 4:3 aspect ratio as many of my 480p games are 4:3 anyway. My question is - would this plasma (43" version) match my NEC for image quality (for 480p 'Cube & Wii specifically)? I'm looking for a backup for the NEC & am contemplating whether to go for the Samsung or wait for another NEC to turn up (I'm patient :)). I realise that this might be a long shot as I'm not sure if anyone here has experience of both the NEC and the Samsung.

Secondly, I'd be really interested to hear if anyone finds 38ms of lag unacceptable?

Cheers

EDIT: No worries, got it sorted now :)

[Xan]

My H4500 says AWXZG, no patterns in the menu here.

[Xan]

Just hooked up my Playstation again, same game and looks like the last time I forgot to switch off those enhancers outside of game mode, with that done I'm hard-pressed to see any difference. The sound is louder in game mode as Josh said, it does switch the sound mode to movie.

Something else though, I can notice a slight tremble at times especially on fonts, wonder if that might be an issue with 288p detection.

[22point8]

Mine doesn't recognise 288p from 576i.

[Xan]

Yeah just verified it with the Wii, that's a shame.

[Josh128]

Just hooked up my Playstation again, same game and looks like the last time I forgot to switch off those enhancers outside of game mode, with that done I'm hard-pressed to see any difference. The sound is louder in game mode as Josh said, it does switch the sound mode to movie.

Something else though, I can notice a slight tremble at times especially on fonts, wonder if that might be an issue with 288p detection.

If you set Digital Clean View to "High" and work some 2D 240p stuff you will see it, sooner than later. On "Auto" sometimes you see it, sometimes you dont, depending on the scenes. It affects 240p and 480i more than anything else.

The jitter on the text your seeing might be related to the 288p issue, the NTSC 240p stuff I have looks rock solid on mine.

[Xan]

Lazy wording there, I meant I couldn't see the difference between game mode on/off anymore as soon as I switched those options off

A little update on the image retention, I haven't used the set in the past couple days and it's still there, from 4 games now to be exact (still invisible during regular use). My usage pattern certainly isn't optimal, I don't watch any TV and just play the same few games once in a while. Is the b/w sweep pattern of any use? I ran it before for about 20 minutes, no effect at all. Otherwise I'll need to find a long enough video and run that for a day or so and see if that changes anything.

[Josh128]

I find TV/motion video to be very effective in clearing the IR. I dont use the screen wipe on any of my sets, but I would imagine its not as effective as actual video. Just plug an antenna into it, scan and let it play. We actually watch TV regularly on 2 of my 3 sets. The one that doesnt, my sons, is fine-- but I do have him switch it to TV for a few minutes after extended sessions of Terraria.

Just a word about the IR-- was playing around with my 5300 yesterday. Just booting the TV up, the splash screen would leave IR (visible in a pitch black room only) after just about 4 seconds of being on the screen! It disappears as quickly as it appears though, after displaying any kind of content. If you are trying to find it in a dark room, even something as simple as changing the inputs ONCE will leave fleeting IR that can be seen if you look for it.

If you cant do the antenna thing, play some full screen Youtube on it. If you cant do that, just put it out of your mind and play-- dont look at it in a super dark room up close on black screens! It'll be fine-- Im really not that fussy at all with any of mine, and they are all 100% free of long term IR. Just play, and as long as you dont play the same game for weeks on end without altering content at all, you'll be fine.

EDIT: just remembered, if you dont have an antenna, set your ant input to analog cable and try to tune to a channel-- you should get complete static-- this is great for IR-- just make sure its full screen. Let it run for 30 min and check immediately after.

Perhaps 22point8 can share some of his experience concerning IR.

I borrowed a newer camera and was going to post a lot more pictures, but they ALL came out looking like complete crap...oh well.

PS What cell light are you running? In any case, when you run the video to clear the IR, set it to at least 15. How many hours do you think you have on the set thus far? You can check them in the service menu, just be careful when your in there. Hit Mute 7,3,7,Enter Look for the number next to MRT. When you see it, just shut the set off. Dont try to scroll or change anything in the menu.

[Josh128]

I'm on the brink of getting the 43" version of this - I have a couple of questions if anyone can help me?

Firstly, I currently use a NEC XM29 for my Wii & 'Cube 480p stuff. It's fantastic at this - the rough Wii output looks just amazing. The CRT 'anti aliasing' effect virtually eliminates jaggies yet the image remains sharp. Both the Wii & cube almost look like different consoles on this CRT compared to anything I've used previously.. I'm not too worried about the 4:3 aspect ratio as many of my 480p games are 4:3 anyway. My question is - would this plasma (43" version) match my NEC for image quality (for 480p 'Cube & Wii specifically)? I'm looking for a backup for the NEC & am contemplating whether to go for the Samsung or wait for another NEC to turn up (I'm patient ). I realise that this might be a long shot as I'm not sure if anyone here has experience of both the NEC and the Samsung.

Secondly, I'd be really interested to hear if anyone finds 38ms of lag unacceptable?

Cheers

EDIT: No worries, got it sorted now

What did you do or find?

I personally think you wont find another HD panel that looks as much like an HD CRT as this set. I tried to take some more pictures this evening, but they can out terrible, so I have about 60 pictures Im not posting. They all show ugly moire patterns in full screen view that do not exist in person. My latest Zelda pics are the best I have, the very first one REALLY does a good job at capturing the look of the set (viewing the pic in a 1024x768 window)

Ive already said my piece on the lag.

[andykara2003]

Nothing really - I'm convinced that this is an awesome plasma for 480p - I was very tempted but decided to hold out for another NEC CRT. I'm just looking for a backup so I'm not in too much of a hurry - hopefully one will turn up eventually....

[Xan]

Cell light I have always on 20, MRT is just 56.

[Josh128]

Cell light I have always on 20, MRT is just 56.

I recommend you tone down that cell light a bit until you reach at least 250 hours. Im sure its OK, but I prefer to break in/wear the panel at 12 to 14 cell light. I thought we touched upon this earlier, I apologize if not. The phosphors in a plasma undergo the most change when they are brand new/breaking in, and the panel is more susceptible to IR when brand new (see link below). Kind of like breaking in an engine in a new motorcycle, you dont want to gun it as soon as you get it out the door, rather take it easy for a couple tanks before you open it up!

Tone it down a bit and make efforts to vary the content till you get over 250, then by all means jack it back up to 20 if thats where you like it. Ive recently toned my AFXA panel down from 20 to 15 or 16, as it was just too bright for the room I had it in during the evenings, which is when I mostly use it. The 20 setting helps minimize ABL, but to be honest, Ive only had issues with the ABL during HD video viewing such as skyshots in live sporting events. Never really had an issue with it in games. Ive never gone past 15 on the BFXZA panel in my sons room, that level is plenty bright for that location.

Running at 20 Cell light on such a new panel could well be why your seeing as much IR as you are-- I didnt realize you were running that hot already when I responded about it in my earlier post. Did you see my update regarding running some analog static on the screen?

http://support-us.samsung.com/cyber/pop ... e=FP-T6374

[Xan]

Ok, I'll reduce it to 15 for the time being.

I tried setting some nonexistant channels, it doesn't seem to work on my set though, even after running the channel search function. I'll just let the scrolling screen run for a couple hours as it says in your link, though I'm not too optimistic that it will remove all of the IR.

[22point8]

This is better, use mode 4 and the dynamic preset. http://beginwithsoftware.com/videoguide ... K7UjtKsX0y

[Josh128]

Ok, I'll reduce it to 15 for the time being.

I tried setting some nonexistant channels, it doesn't seem to work on my set though, even after running the channel search function. I'll just let the scrolling screen run for a couple hours as it says in your link, though I'm not too optimistic that it will remove all of the IR.

The reason I dont trust the scrolling screen is if what you have IS uneven phosphor wear which occured due to the newness of the panel and the high cell light you were running, the smooth gradation is uniform over both the more worn phosphors vs. the less, and thus will only age everything at exactly the same rate for a net gain of 0.

I still maintain logo-less full motion video content is the best remedy, if you dont have cable or a pair of rabbit ears antenna, dont you have any DVD movies you can shove in your PS or Xbox that you can play???

Do you not have an analog cable function on the antenna port of the set?? The US NTSC versions do. Im 99.9% certain your set has it as well. Set your antenna in to analog and run some static for a while-- let it run overnight if needed.

In any case, theres absolutely no way that you wont be able to clear your issue up. I'd bet my left nut that if I had your set for a single day I'd have it 100%. Im really finding it a bit strange that you have absolutely no way to play a movie on your TV though...

[Xan]

There is an antenna input on the set, but like I said I don't watch TV and setting it to a blank channel for static didn't work. Sure I could let a movie or Youtube run on there for a couple hours, just trying to find the most effective way to remove the IR.

I did let the scrolling screen roll for about 2 hours and it's a bit better, but it's still visible when going up close on a 0 IRE screen. So I think there's a good chance I already have slight burn-in on this new set. My objective is really to make sure none of it gets ever visible during gameplay, because that might ruin it for me. Right now I'm trying the colored static MKV 22point8 posted.

[Josh128]

There is an antenna input on the set, but like I said I don't watch TV and setting it to a blank channel for static didn't work. Sure I could let a movie or Youtube run on there for a couple hours, just trying to find the most effective way to remove the IR.

I did let the scrolling screen roll for about 2 hours and it's a bit better, but it's still visible when going up close on a 0 IRE screen. So I think there's a good chance I already have slight burn-in on this new set. My objective is really to make sure none of it gets ever visible during gameplay, because that might ruin it for me. Right now I'm trying the colored static MKV 22point8 posted.

I just refuse to believe that what you have is burn in, and that you wont be able to clear it, just doesnt make sense. Some semi-stubborn IR, from the panel being brand new--I'll buy that. As I said, I have over 24 months of use combined over my sets, and they all have absolutely zero IR (other than fleeting, of course) on a full black, light gray, colored, or white screen. My original F4500 has an MRT of 1284 hours, my 5300 has 1253. Dont worry, you'll be able to clear it.

I mean, exactly what game did you play and for how long (obviously less than 60 hours)? Which elements (HUD, Life Bar, etc) seem to have imprinted? Did you pause the game for an extended period?

[Josh128]

Ive sorted through some of the 12MP shots I did the other day. Im very disappointed with the quality of them, especially when zoomed in-- it seems theres just too little focus/too much compression on the photos. Honestly they look pretty crap, I played with the ISO to try to get better focus, so the shots are dark and still the focus is not good zoomed in. My old camera did a much better job, but it was only 3 MP. These are very poor representative of what the set looks like, but I wanted to post them anyway if anyone is interested.

http://imgur.com/a/VgoI0