Recommended Anime/Manga?

[Kaiser]

No idea which generation you guys come from, but whatever it is, sounds like you hit the evolutionary stage where good taste was jettisoned for bright colours and blahhhh.

I have no idea which generation you came from but sounds like you hit the evolutionary stage where 3 times more whine comes flowing like spice out of your busted ass.

Face it Skykid, you can't convince people to disregard what you consider shitty by your OH LAWD HIGH standards.

[Skykid]

No idea which generation you guys come from, but whatever it is, sounds like you hit the evolutionary stage where good taste was jettisoned for bright colours and blahhhh.

I have no idea which generation you came from but sounds like you hit the evolutionary stage where 3 times more whine comes flowing like spice out of your busted ass.

Face it Skykid, you can't convince people to disregard what you consider shitty by your OH LAWD HIGH standards.

Don't need to. Your low standards do all the convincing already.

Diebuster is shit, and always will be.

[Kaiser]

No idea which generation you guys come from, but whatever it is, sounds like you hit the evolutionary stage where good taste was jettisoned for bright colours and blahhhh.

I have no idea which generation you came from but sounds like you hit the evolutionary stage where 3 times more whine comes flowing like spice out of your busted ass.

Face it Skykid, you can't convince people to disregard what you consider shitty by your OH LAWD HIGH standards.

Don't need to. Your low standards do all the convincing already.

Diebuster is shit, and always will be.

And your posting is doing the convincing as well, you are repeating yourself, trying to bring other's tastes down to your standard, that's the wrong part about your views, why bother changing something that can't be changed anyway? Just give it up, times change, tastes change, culture changes, there will be always things that aren't as they were, even for us youths who will face the same problem.

[Skykid]

And your posting is doing the convincing as well, you are repeating yourself, trying to bring other's tastes up to your standard.

Fixed that for you.

I already discussed Gunbuster and Diebuster back on page 27.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... er#p712540

Also, if someone says "discuss", that doesn't usually include, "but I don't want to hear from you if you think it's shit."

Diebuster is atrocious. It's got nothing to do with rose tinted spectacles or nostalgia, it's to do with simple critical faculties and measurement within its commercial spectrum. If you watch it and see something of quality, I'll never consider that to be okay because 'times and cultures change', I'll just think you lack the ability to discern quality. Don't feel bad about it though, 90% of commercial media relies on such conditions.

Unless of course you're insinuating that people are getting a lot fucking stupider, in which case, yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[MX7]

Gunbuster is amazing, and much more satisfying Diebuster (in my opinion). But Diebuster is definitely absolutely fascinating through its rampant iconoclasm. Tropes are steamrollered, paradigms smashed, and continuity is decimated into a huge phantasmagoric cloud. Gainax has always been about demolishing narrative for a cosmic grand guignol, or maybe just a shaggy dog story. Gunbuster did exactly the same thing (compare the first episode to the last episode), Evangelion even more so. While I can't say I enjoyed Diebuster nearly as much as Gunbuster, I think that it was a perfect sequel, and I would be disappointed if Gainax than the absolute destruction of its past.

ALSO I think we have to realise that for all its reverence, Gunbuster is basically a parody of a tennis anime that plays with the conventions of sports anime etc by pushing it to a ridiculous degree, before introducing a metaphysical banana skin halfway through. Evangelion takes a generic and frequently unlikeable giant robot story before pulling exactly the same stunt, but emphasising the excessiveness and misery ten-fold.

[Skykid]

Gunbuster is amazing, and much more satisfying Diebuster (in my opinion). But Diebuster is definitely absolutely fascinating through its rampant iconoclasm. Tropes are steamrollered, paradigms smashed, and continuity is decimated into a huge phantasmagoric cloud. Gainax has always been about demolishing narrative for a cosmic grand guignol, or maybe just a shaggy dog story. Gunbuster did exactly the same thing (compare the first episode to the last episode), Evangelion even more so. While I can't say I enjoyed Diebuster nearly as much as Gunbuster, I think that it was a perfect sequel, and I would be disappointed if Gainax than the absolute destruction of its past.

It's terrible. Rampant iconoclasm being old men leering up skirts, central characters of no discernable core, rhyme or reason, steamrollering tropes by blowing out wanton nudity/fan service as some kind of hat-tipping to Gunbuster, except with none of the subtlety, respect for characterisation or plot, and defiling basic artistry with terrible design work and CG robots...

I'm less interested in people's perceptions and interpretations of the work than I am with the quality of the work placed before me. Smashed paradigms and flipping tropes and memes upside down means absolutely nothing if the result is an unwatchable pile of garbage - which it is.

How you can even consider it a perfect sequel to... well to anything, really, is pretty beyond me. It doesn't hold a candle to Gunbuster, that's for sure.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

I do prefer the industrial - almost Gerry Anderson-esque stylings of the original and I do agree that the bright wacky style of Diebuster would be shocking and offensive to anyone whose mental development ceased in the early nineties. I hate new things and I am enraged that the world no longer resembles the one I occupied as an 8 year old. (I'm 34 for the sake of argument).

I feel, however, that by episode 6, Diebuster really does justify all its "questionable design decisions". I honestly bought the idea that in the 12,000 years that separate the two stories, technology evolved out of control until it resembled a neon cartoon. That doesnt bother me. Even the few seconds of shitty CGI has its place - to illustrate the clunkyness of the mecha before the pilots activate their 'exotic maneuver' thingy - changing their mechs into fluid wibbly wobbly reality-warping whatevers. Works also to bring a little 'magical-robot' Mazinger type action into what was once straight hard sci-fi, making it the perfect companion piece to Gunbuster (hard sci-fi) and Eva (Lovecraftian) and whatever other crap I was watching at the time.

Not as successful as a character piece - Nono is as annoying as broken robots would be. We're lead to believe that she's the Noriko substitute and that Lark is supposed to be the other one - these roles are kind of reversed later on. The lecherous male cast only make the absence of a 'Coach' equivalent even harder to bear and Chico can go eat a bag of dicks. Her episode sucked (I liked the remains of Jupiter though).

But yeah, this is how I like sequels. They trot out familiar tropes and present them in a new way or with a twist. I'd have been more pissed off if they just did the same thing again.

Not much else I can think of. I do enjoy being constantly negative and consider flooding the internet with my superior opinions my favourite passtime. Unfortunately Diebuster just didn't rub me the wrong way enough.

[Raytrace]

I did end up liking Diebuster a lot by the end of it, nowhere near as much as my beloved Gunbuster, however nowhere near as little as I thought I would during the first few episodes (I think if you go back to the pages in this thread it was last being argued about, I actually dropped/stopped at about the start of episode 3 as I couldn't bare it, I'm glad I did return though).

[Raytrace]

and please I hope this minor tiffle has not stopped people trying to work out what I'm talkin bout here: :p

ok this is a very long shot, but I'm wondering if anyone knows of an animation that I vaguely remmeber from my childhood, for somre reason I remember it as being French, not sure if French-French or could be French commisioning Japanese, anyway it seemed to be a bit like Ulysses31, but it was a single animation film, which had really dramatic classical music all the way through it (definitely famous pieces as I think I recognised some of them even then (age 7-9 I think).

it seemed to be a story about the creation of a civilisation on a planet and then it getting destroyed by floods and stuff, for some reason I think it was a kindof sci-fi Venice or something.

If anyone can make anything out from that, I'm very impressed, as I'd love to see it again ;p

[xbl0x180]

Yeah, Diebuster as a stand-alone work and when compared to good contemporary anime is a steaming pile of pure, unadulterated shit

[Edmond Dantes]

I'm less interested in people's perceptions and interpretations of the work than I am with the quality of the work placed before me. Smashed paradigms and flipping tropes and memes upside down means absolutely nothing if the result is an unwatchable pile of garbage - which it is.

I'm gonna go against the grain here and say, with all honesty, that you are one of the few people whose statements make perfect sense.

Sadly I have seen neither Gunbuster nor Diebuster so I can't comment on the matter at hand, but fight the good fight for higher standards.

Just as long as nobody claims anything is better than Ranma 1/2 or the original Speed Racer I have no cause for criticism.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

^Not against the grain, it's a perfectly reasonable stance to take on anything. It just happens to not apply to Diebuster, which kicks ass.

[Skykid]

Yeah, Diebuster as a stand-alone work and when compared to good contemporary anime is a steaming pile of pure, unadulterated shit

I would have considered this statement to have some weight, based on your film and anime pedigree and track record for excellent artistic taste. Sadly, you clearly just hate new things and are enraged that the world no longer resembles the one you occupied as an 8 year old. Such is the case, you do not have the right to offer any dismissive commentary toward any anime post 1998, because you do not possess the nous to understand what makes it so irreplaceably wonderful. Anime no longer requires engaging characters, significant artistry or dramatic plot devices, it just requires self-referential tropes, memes, and a slew of fan service that acknowledges other anime past and present. In doing this it then achieves 'auto-greatness', because tropes/memes/playing with conventions of tropes and memes, and awkward self-referential humour is so clever a device that it produces a microcosm of irrefutable genius where all secondary particulars - like entertainment - are no longer required.

"Fascinating": now officially better than good.

[DaneSaga]

ok this is a very long shot, but I'm wondering if anyone knows of an animation that I vaguely remmeber from my childhood, for somre reason I remember it as being French, not sure if French-French or could be French commisioning Japanese, anyway it seemed to be a bit like Ulysses31, but it was a single animation film, which had really dramatic classical music all the way through it (definitely famous pieces as I think I recognised some of them even then (age 7-9 I think).

it seemed to be a story about the creation of a civilisation on a planet and then it getting destroyed by floods and stuff, for some reason I think it was a kindof sci-fi Venice or something.

If anyone can make anything out from that, I'm very impressed, as I'd love to see it again ;p

Check out René Laloux’s animated films.

Gandahar
Les Maîtres du temps (Time Masters)
Fantastic Planet

What you are looking for may very well be amongst the above if it is indeed a French animated film.
Laloux had quite the eccentric mind, his movies are certainly worth a view if you feel up to it.

[Edmond Dantes]

Anime no longer requires engaging characters, significant artistry or dramatic plot devices, it just requires self-referential tropes, memes, and a slew of fan service that acknowledges other anime past and present. In doing this it then achieves 'auto-greatness', because tropes/memes/playing with conventions of tropes and memes, and awkward self-referential humour is so clever a device that it produces a microcosm of irrefutable genius where all secondary particulars - like entertainment - are no longer required.

"Fascinating": now officially better than good.

This is the way most media is going, to be honest. Being meta seems to be more important than being actually good these days. You see it especially in movies, where artsy-shmartsy directors think that telling a nonlinear story or telling a "deconstruction" or trying (badly, more often than not) to imitate a great director of the past, somehow makes their shitty story good. A great example of this is the movie "Premonition" starring Sandra Bullock--it's legendary for its terrible, terrible ending, which happened entirely because the director wanted to avert a happy ending cliche. Ironically, he averted it by using a completely different cliche.

I blame sites like TV Tropes, which cause people to think of the conventions of a story rather than the story itself.

Seriously about the only medium-aware anime I've ever seen that worked (in my opinion) was Lucky Star, but that was more because I got an overall nostalgic vibe from it (it reminded me of when I was a teenage nerd in high school) rather than because the references themselves were particularly amusing or clever.

... Errr, sorry, I'll stop ranting now.

BACK ON TOPIC, I recently discovered a classic anime called Uchuu Kishi Tekkaman. This anime from 1975 is, of course, the predecessor to Tekkaman Blade... and in my opinion, far superior. If nothing else, just because Tekkaman Blade became filled to the brim with ridiculous levels of angst and grittiness whereas the original had no pretensions. Worth finding if you can. Only available fansubbed.

[J_Taishu]

I experience most robot anime through Super Robot Taisen series, so my perspective on it is pretty warped. I did try watching G-Gundam after the series was pretty fun to play with in MX, and just ended up feeling disappointed. Shin-Getter was just as disappointing after how awesome it was in Z2. On the other hand, I'm glad I watched the mainline UC stuff and Turn-A.

Anybody watch Kemonozume? Not robot, but probably the best anime I've seen in years.

[Raytrace]

I would have considered this statement to have some weight, based on your film and anime pedigree and track record for excellent artistic taste. Sadly, you clearly just hate new things and are enraged that the world no longer resembles the one you occupied as an 8 year old. Such is the case, you do not have the right to offer any dismissive commentary toward any anime post 1998, because you do not possess the nous to understand what makes it so irreplaceably wonderful. Anime no longer requires engaging characters, significant artistry or dramatic plot devices, it just requires self-referential tropes, memes, and a slew of fan service that acknowledges other anime past and present. In doing this it then achieves 'auto-greatness', because tropes/memes/playing with conventions of tropes and memes, and awkward self-referential humour is so clever a device that it produces a microcosm of irrefutable genius where all secondary particulars - like entertainment - are no longer required.

"Fascinating": now officially better than good.

haha skykid that was a great post I didnt know what was going on at the start.....

[xbl0x180]

Anime no longer requires engaging characters, significant artistry or dramatic plot devices, it just requires self-referential tropes, memes, and a slew of fan service that acknowledges other anime past and present. In doing this it then achieves 'auto-greatness', because tropes/memes/playing with conventions of tropes and memes, and awkward self-referential humour is so clever a device that it produces a microcosm of irrefutable genius where all secondary particulars - like entertainment - are no longer required.

"Fascinating": now officially better than good.

This is the way most media is going, to be honest. Being meta seems to be more important than being actually good these days. You see it especially in movies, where artsy-shmartsy directors think that telling a nonlinear story or telling a "deconstruction" or trying (badly, more often than not) to imitate a great director of the past, somehow makes their shitty story good. A great example of this is the movie "Premonition" starring Sandra Bullock--it's legendary for its terrible, terrible ending, which happened entirely because the director wanted to avert a happy ending cliche. Ironically, he averted it by using a completely different cliche.

I blame sites like TV Tropes, which cause people to think of the conventions of a story rather than the story itself.

Seriously about the only medium-aware anime I've ever seen that worked (in my opinion) was Lucky Star, but that was more because I got an overall nostalgic vibe from it (it reminded me of when I was a teenage nerd in high school) rather than because the references themselves were particularly amusing or clever.

... Errr, sorry, I'll stop ranting now.

BACK ON TOPIC, I recently discovered a classic anime called Uchuu Kishi Tekkaman. This anime from 1975 is, of course, the predecessor to Tekkaman Blade... and in my opinion, far superior. If nothing else, just because Tekkaman Blade became filled to the brim with ridiculous levels of angst and grittiness whereas the original had no pretensions. Worth finding if you can. Only available fansubbed.

Blasphemy! Lucky Star is part of what perpetuates anime as animu. Super Milk-chan had a buncha pop cultural references as well without having to be smarmy pap (the closest semblance would be that awful, Dada-inspired Aqua Teen Hunger Force... which I also love)

[Raytrace]

Check out René Laloux’s animated films.

Gandahar
Les Maîtres du temps (Time Masters)
Fantastic Planet

What you are looking for may very well be amongst the above if it is indeed a French animated film.
Laloux had quite the eccentric mind, his movies are certainly worth a view if you feel up to it.

thanks a lot - I believe you're definitely leading me on the right track as when I tried to ask my friend if he remembered it he said the only thing he could remember was with the 'big blue guy and the kid' so maybe RTÉ bought all 3 in a batch or something - I shall check later more fully

[xbl0x180]

Yeah, Diebuster as a stand-alone work and when compared to good contemporary anime is a steaming pile of pure, unadulterated shit

I would have considered this statement to have some weight, based on your film and anime pedigree and track record for excellent artistic taste. Sadly, you clearly just hate new things and are enraged that the world no longer resembles the one you occupied as an 8 year old. Such is the case, you do not have the right to offer any dismissive commentary toward any anime post 1998, because you do not possess the nous to understand what makes it so irreplaceably wonderful. Anime no longer requires engaging characters, significant artistry or dramatic plot devices, it just requires self-referential tropes, memes, and a slew of fan service that acknowledges other anime past and present. In doing this it then achieves 'auto-greatness', because tropes/memes/playing with conventions of tropes and memes, and awkward self-referential humour is so clever a device that it produces a microcosm of irrefutable genius where all secondary particulars - like entertainment - are no longer required.

"Fascinating": now officially better than good.

Hahaha. Aye, there was a lot of good anime pre-1998

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

I would have considered this statement to have some weight, based on your film and anime pedigree and track record for excellent artistic taste. Sadly, you clearly just hate new things and are enraged that the world no longer resembles the one you occupied as an 8 year old. Such is the case, you do not have the right to offer any dismissive commentary toward any anime post 1998, because you do not possess the nous to understand what makes it so irreplaceably wonderful. Anime no longer requires engaging characters, significant artistry or dramatic plot devices, it just requires self-referential tropes, memes, and a slew of fan service that acknowledges other anime past and present. In doing this it then achieves 'auto-greatness', because tropes/memes/playing with conventions of tropes and memes, and awkward self-referential humour is so clever a device that it produces a microcosm of irrefutable genius where all secondary particulars - like entertainment - are no longer required.

"Fascinating": now officially better than good.

haha skykid that was a great post I didnt know what was going on at the start.....

My jokes sound better when I post them.

[Hagane]

I would have considered this statement to have some weight, based on your film and anime pedigree and track record for excellent artistic taste. Sadly, you clearly just hate new things and are enraged that the world no longer resembles the one you occupied as an 8 year old. Such is the case, you do not have the right to offer any dismissive commentary toward any anime post 1998, because you do not possess the nous to understand what makes it so irreplaceably wonderful. Anime no longer requires engaging characters, significant artistry or dramatic plot devices, it just requires self-referential tropes, memes, and a slew of fan service that acknowledges other anime past and present. In doing this it then achieves 'auto-greatness', because tropes/memes/playing with conventions of tropes and memes, and awkward self-referential humour is so clever a device that it produces a microcosm of irrefutable genius where all secondary particulars - like entertainment - are no longer required.

"Fascinating": now officially better than good.

I wish you nostalgic fellows would drop this attitude and spend the time you waste talking about how good anime was in the 90s and 80s (it wasn't; most of it was unwatchable garbage just as full of tropes and dumb copy-paste garbage as it is now) giving good new stuff a chance instead.

When I meet someone like that in real life, I always ask "oh, but have you watched things like Seirei no Moribito, Michiko to Hatchin, Mononoke, Kemonozume, etc?". And I invariably get a "...", "no" as a response. For people like xblox there's no chance for open mindedness (and the old stuff he likes is usually awful, by the way), but I know that someone who likes BOTI and Shigurui like you can get enjoyment from the good stuff made in the 2000s (not crap like Diebuster, that is).

[Raytrace]

Mononoke

that does look good - Imma check

[Raytrace]

I just wached the Spartan-K5 episode of Mazinger Z, which I enjoyed very much

[xbl0x180]

I would have considered this statement to have some weight, based on your film and anime pedigree and track record for excellent artistic taste. Sadly, you clearly just hate new things and are enraged that the world no longer resembles the one you occupied as an 8 year old. Such is the case, you do not have the right to offer any dismissive commentary toward any anime post 1998, because you do not possess the nous to understand what makes it so irreplaceably wonderful. Anime no longer requires engaging characters, significant artistry or dramatic plot devices, it just requires self-referential tropes, memes, and a slew of fan service that acknowledges other anime past and present. In doing this it then achieves 'auto-greatness', because tropes/memes/playing with conventions of tropes and memes, and awkward self-referential humour is so clever a device that it produces a microcosm of irrefutable genius where all secondary particulars - like entertainment - are no longer required.

"Fascinating": now officially better than good.

I wish you nostalgic fellows would drop this attitude and spend the time you waste talking about how good anime was in the 90s and 80s (it wasn't; most of it was unwatchable garbage just as full of tropes and dumb copy-paste garbage as it is now) giving good new stuff a chance instead.

When I meet someone like that in real life, I always ask "oh, but have you watched things like Seirei no Moribito, Michiko to Hatchin, Mononoke, Kemonozume, etc?". And I invariably get a "...", "no" as a response. For people like xblox there's no chance for open mindedness (and the old stuff he likes is usually awful, by the way), but I know that someone who likes BOTI and Shigurui like you can get enjoyment from the good stuff made in the 2000s (not crap like Diebuster, that is).

Hahaha. Oh, my God, you're STILL whining about this shit?

I'm pretty sure there is a consensus that what I like is generally well-liked, not just by anime fans, but by people in general who enjoy watching television shows and movies; it's actually quite the opposite: very few things out there I like are awful - and I already know they're awful. So, unless you think illustrators such as Amano, Mikimoto, Nagano, Takada, U-Jin, Urushihara, and Utatane; manga writers such as Ikeda, Ikegami, Iwaki, Matsumoto, Takachiho, and Takahashi; and directors such as Chalopin, Dezaki, Kawajiri, Kon, Miyazaki, Oshii, Otomo, and Taro are "usually awful," then I'd question just about everything you suggest with regards to animation and comics in general.

I have gone on the record time and time again as stating how much I dislike CG and rotoscoping, so if you're gonna go ahead and make recommendations of works that have this, then you just weren't paying attention - and don't act surprised when I pan it. I much prefer hand-drawn and/or design styles that stand out (I'm not good at picking out subtle nuances such as in-between animation). While Mononoke has cool designs, its smooth CG animation is very distracting. I don't like it. I'd rather go watch one of those old cartoons you think are "awful"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKP0K7pkE4I

Think of it this way: In the movie industry, there are SFX guys who work in props and prefer real-life props, while there are SFX guys who prefer to use a green screen and design a fake prop with their proggy. CG, to me, feels like an extension of the green screen even though I know directors love it because it cuts down on the budget and tedious aspects of animating.

[Raytrace]

@drauch:

I just watched epsiode 9 of Yamato 2199 - I think you would REALLY like it if you haven't seen it yet, Analyzer is the main character in it

[drauch]

Awesome! Yeah, I plan on checking it out eventually. I've got it queued up.

[Ruldra]

I'm halfway through the School Days anime. I was completely bored at first and thought about just dropping it, but then...things got interesting. Makoto is a complete dick. Looking forward to see the ending.

The manga version is much better though. It follows a completely different storyline and the pacing is so much better. In the anime things just drag on far too much.

[Raytrace]

Awesome! Yeah, I plan on checking it out eventually. I've got it queued up.

yeah it ain't quite as blub blub as the episode you know, but it is very, very good...

[EmperorIng]

In regards to sequels...
A sequel I thought was better than the original was New Dominion Tank Police.

The original's (Dominion Tank Police) problem was that it was a prequel to the manga, which made the final act shoehorned and compressed in order to set the manga up.

The sequel could just do its own thang, so it allowed it to be some sort of cyberpunk Lethal Weapon action movie. Awesome stuff.