Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[__SKYe]

have you 1cc'd the arcade game before, and this was your first time on the sfc version?

Haha, no, I wish.
The arcade original is much more brutal. On the default setting, you only get 2 lives, and a single extend at 100,000 points (on the SFC version, you start with 6 lives and get extends at every 200,000 points).
Couple that with a total of 8 enemies on screen at once (vs the 3 on the SFC port), and you have a recipe for a brutal, brutal game.
The flawless controls and gameplay mechanics, make it a fantastic game, though.

I have previously 1CC'd Final Fight One (GBA, Japanese version) on Normal (and default settings) with several characters (missing Haggar, I think). The lives+extends are the same as on the SFC game, of course.
For reference the GBA port's difficulty levels are EASY/NORMAL/HARD/VERYHARD/SUPERHARD, so you can imagine it will also take quite a while to completely beat. However the USA version ranges from VERYEASY to VERYHARD, although I'm not sure if it was just a renaming thing, or if it actually difers somehow.

This is the kind of game where bosses (sans the first one) shave off half your health with one hit (and even some regular enemies too), so you can kinda see how having many lives isn't quite as reassuring one might think at first.
One little mistake (especially in the later levels), and there goes one life.

With that said, I'm still pretty much an intermediate player (if that) at it, but I'm working on it.

don't worry, i've heard a looooot of shit about that version

Yeah, I hear it was quite the disappointment for kids back in the day, who were expecting 2P coop play, the 3 characters and all the levels.
Still an interesting game though, and plays quite well (would be even better, if not for the slowdown).

[Sumez]

I always preferred single plane brawlers to "belt scrollers". Even with simplistic titles like Spartan X.
Without the ability to dodge attacks through Konami style awkward slow moving sidestepping, the game is forced to come up with a different way to add that depth to the gameplay. The combat is usually a lot tighter, making it more obvious what you are doing wrong, and rely less on abusing the AI to survive.

But there are just too few of them. I would love to see some more recommendations aside from The usual Ninja Warriors.
(of course there's Bad Dudes and Crude Buster. Almost forgot about those games, somehow)

[Bloodreign]

I've been on a puzzle game kick lately (after what seemed like an eternal KoF and Sam Sho kick), from Magical Drop, to Puzzle Damas and Tokkae Damas, to good old Puyo Puyo (1- Yo~n only plz). I love these things to death, and am decent at MD, but the Konami games and Puyo's I am a bit too slow at and too impatient to build large chains (did I mention I love these 3 particular series?). Yet I can somehow show some speed at Magical Drop, especially #3.

Never could understand how back in the day Shoe would call Puyo Puyo easy, but I guess with enough practice and being a bit younger (reflexes yo) and seeing chains far enough ahead better make for a better experience.

These games are great when you don't feel like shooting aliens, or destroying evil scientists, or giant turtles, or saving the world from robots. But they require just as much brainpower as anything.

Oh and hey, realized these aren't side scrolling action games, but they are old school games that are just enjoyable as something like a Contra, or a Journey to Silius, or a Batman (or Holy Diver), just in a different genre.

[Sumez]

They sure are video games alright

[Squire Grooktook]

Without the ability to dodge attacks through Konami style awkward slow moving sidestepping.

Although I like the traditional belt scroller formula, this might be one reason why I prefer the flashy, acrobatic manuevers made possible in the later Capcom brawlers. Movement in AVP and Armored Warriors is sublime.

I really need to master TNWA, myself. But I've only had it as a "side game", putting the casual credit in every now and then with slow progress. It is indeed a masterpiece, I'm just waiting to similarly finish off a (worthy, "assault course" style) 1lc of AVP before moving on and really dissecting it.

Besides it's characterful movement, AVP is also a game I consider similarly perfect in its omnipresent but fair randomness, constant variety (in both big and small ways), and flawless pacing. Probably top 5 action games of all time IMO.

-

As for Mutant Apocalypse, had another play session. Pretty nice game overall. Nowhere near TNWA in terms of design, but the emphasis on platforming and moderate character variety gives it an extra boost to make up for it's lesser overall combat. Psylocke's ass is well sprited, and I recognize a hell of a lot of sound effects from Demon's Crest. Good times overall.

[BIL]

I think more SFC brawlers should've gone for the single-plane approach, simply for its obviating the system's usual issue with enemy limits. Four onscreen ala TNWA ain't much on the belt, but with 2D NO REFUGE you can very quickly get into trouble. And besides the obvious pincer situation of 2 either side, TNWA also uses its tank and sniper enemies interestingly... one of the worst things is having a weak but persistently sniping enemy camping behind heavy bruisers. You need to smash that barricade down and squash the little fucker! (with the game's Authentic Brawling Action and Real Crowd Control, often the best solution is to grab the bodyguards and hurl them straight into the sniper support).

AVP is one of my longterm bucket list titles. Adored what I played, but being an obsessed collector, I've piled my free time over the last few years into further dark research. If the game got a modern release ala the D&D pair, my boner would detonate with the fury of a dying star.

Not to harsh on limited onscreen enemies too much - Double Dragon II FC is legit one of the most violent, evil brawlers ever. NOT to be confused with the wimpy NES version! Accept no substitute for XTREEM MASTER! Technos = lovers of PAIN

[Shoryukev]

Anyway, I'm happy to finally beat this one, but there's still Haggar to play as.

Fixed

I'm not a huge fan of FF on the SNES/SFC, having only 3 enemies at a time (and no 2 player!) really stagnates my interest. Back in the day I fetished the Sega CD version and saved my pennies. I had Streets of Rage 1&2 and they are fantastic games....but for some reason I always wanted to play Final Fight. Playing them now SoR2 is probably my favorite game in the genre, so it probably had something to do with being a huge capcom fanboy when I was a kid.

[BIL]

FFCD's a must-have just for that time attack mode, aka ARCADE CRACK. Deceptively addictive, even moreso with two players.

[__SKYe]

I always preferred single plane brawlers to "belt scrollers". Even with simplistic titles like Spartan X.
Without the ability to dodge attacks through Konami style awkward slow moving sidestepping, the game is forced to come up with a different way to add that depth to the gameplay. The combat is usually a lot tighter, making it more obvious what you are doing wrong, and rely less on abusing the AI to survive.

I'm on the other side of the fence. I prefer the standard beat-em-ups to the single plane brawlers.
I think what makes the good ones kind of scarce, is that a good beat-em-up needs great controls/mechanics in order to be fun to play, even when it is brutally hard. I particularly enjoy games with simple movesets (like, again, Final Fight, SOR, etc).
This kind of simplicity in the moveset, forces the player to really focus on the details of the gameplay/AI in order to survive, and is not obfuscated by flashy moves. If you add pretty much perfect controls on top of that, you have a recpe for a game with a high skill ceiling.
I think it's all about refining one's skill rather than struggling to decide which special/super/flashy move to use.

Anyway, I'm happy to finally beat this one, but there's still Haggar to play as.

Fixed

Haha, c'mon, Guy is cool. His Zero/Alpha version in Final Fight One is particularly badass.

I'm not a huge fan of FF on the SNES/SFC, having only 3 enemies at a time (and no 2 player!) really stagnates my interest. Back in the day I fetished the Sega CD version and saved my pennies.

And one of the biggest offenders, was that they removed Rolento's entire level from the game. Definitely a shame.

I had Streets of Rage 1&2 and they are fantastic games....but for some reason I always wanted to play Final Fight. Playing them now SoR2 is probably my favorite game in the genre, so it probably had something to do with being a huge capcom fanboy when I was a kid.

Probably the first beat-em-up I ever played was SOR 1 (it was included in a 3-in-1 game that used to come bundled with the MD, at least in Europe).
For many years after that (to maybe 3~4 years ago, actually), I didn't like Final Fight, because, the SOR series seemed much better. I didn't like the sprites, nor their size, SOR games' music was better, etc.
Then, after I started playing Final Fight, suddenly SOR (any of them) weren't quite up to par.
SOR 1 & 2's music is still better (SOR 1 in particular, will always be dear to my heart), and SOR 2 & 3 look fantastic, but after playing FF, even being as good as they are, I always find them lacking (gameplay-wise).

FFCD's a must-have just for that time attack mode, aka ARCADE CRACK. Image Deceptively addictive, even moreso with two players.

True, the Sega CD was also the most arcade perfect port at the time (the X68000 version notwithstanding), and with CD audio to boot.
The only downside is the weaker color palette, but not that big of a deal.

Haha, BIL, those smilies.
I'm not even sure those can be called smilies anymore.

By the way, Squire Grooktook, finally got your avatar up.

[Sumez]

Get with the times. They are emojis now.

[Shoryukev]

Haha, c'mon, Guy is cool. His Zero/Alpha version in Final Fight One is particularly badass.

I was just joking that Guy is absent in the SFC/SNES port lol. Guy is definitely a cool character, I use him sometimes in the SF Alpha games.

It might be nostalgia, but SoR2's music is just amazing in my book. I don't listen to chiptunes much on their own, but that is one OST I need on my ipod (wouldn't mind owning the recent vinyl release too).

I think the first beat-em-up I ever played was the Master System port of Double Dragon, followed very closely by Simpsons AC

[__SKYe]

Get with the times. They are emojis now.

Fair enough, my mistake.
But BIL's emojis are still something else.

I was just joking that Guy is absent in the SFC/SNES port lol. Guy is definitely a cool character, I use him sometimes in the SF Alpha games.

Haha, he is playable if you play the JP exclusive Final Fight Guy, though in exchange you lose Cody.
To be honest, I usually actaully prefer speedy characters in beat-em-ups. For example, the first time I've 1CC SOR 1, I used Blaze, not just because she's cool, but because although she's weaker, her speed is very useful to chase/avoid enemies. Quite worth the lack of power, in my opinion.
In particular, the fire breathing boss is easier to beat with her, simply because she's the only character that is fast enough to reliably jump kick behind him to score a knockdown.

It might be nostalgia, but SoR2's music is just amazing in my book. I don't listen to chiptunes much on their own, but that is one OST I need on my ipod (wouldn't mind owning the recent vinyl release too).

Yes both SOR 1 & 2 have an amazing soundtrack, and although people usually state the 2nd as having the best one, I'm permanently biased towards the 1st, because of the nostalgia factor.
To this day, I don't think I've heard such a cool Final Level song as SOR 1's.
It also helps that when you first start playing the game, it's not a song you hear too often (unless you continue, or go into audio test mode), as reaching that level usually takes quite a while.

I think the first beat-em-up I ever played was the Master System port of Double Dragon, followed very closely by Simpsons AC

I know of those, but haven't played either yet.
Is the Master System port of Double Dragon like the NES game? Or more like the Arcade game?

[Shoryukev]

The master system port is a little more like the arcade version. It lacks the RPG element of having to earn your moveset as you go along, and has two player support. The graphics are a little different too (I think I remember it looked a little better but with tons of sprite flicker), I haven't played it in years so forgive me if I'm missing something.

[BIL]

Yo fuck Honeyviper, he's trickiest Act I boss to style on by far. :V I NEED BEES Sometimes he'll be all "soitenly nyuk nyuk" oprah_bees.gif others though he's all "yo sup yo, uhh, you want some bees"

Spoiler

Still goes down in 10secs at worst but only good fortune gets the best face-smashing kill!

Also horeh shiet, I got my battleship-destroying groove back by swapping Buster for Sword. The way this game's run evolves in tandem to one's style is beautiful. mwah. I do think it'd have been cool if i) you got some visual reward for destroying all its parts (just a big bang, nothing elaborate), and ii) each of its "worm" familiars could activate after the first is killed (one at a time only - the whole set at once might be unplayably cluttered, and surely too much for the MD to handle besides). Granted, I remember how just the one is a bit of a handful when you're new. Probably something for a hypothetical SUPERHARDER.

Also Catmans with max ranger is pretty sweet! One of the very few places where the game will slow down, outside of the deliberate boss XPLOSION overloads. Assuming my emulator's being accurate.

Something that'd really come in handy on M2's PS2 version, re bits involving tons of small projectiles like Honeyviper, is the sprite limit disable. I remember that particular boss's Suicide Bee Bullets going invisible if you attack him from behind, last time I played the MD cart. I wish I had a PS2 handy to try it out - I'm sure it'd be like going from Strider's PCB (considerable slowdown + flicker) to the PS1 port (none of either ever, screen gets blanketed with explosions and shredded bodies without a hitch).

edit: oh mah gawd. All these years I thought the fishing minigame was random. Turns out the little buggers are the ones in charge. :O Thank you for your sacrifice mr. fish, now I can go kill that big fucken lobster that's eating all your buddies! ;-;7

Spoiler

[PowerofElsydeon]

Now that we're talking beat em ups what do you think of Star Wars Episode III for GBA?

Don't write off cute stuff wholesale. :O Gimmick, Little Nemo (FC), Hero Tonma (PCE), Rainbow Islands (AC/PCE) and Kirby (GB, Hard Mode) are just some of the cutesy yet 100% hardcore action platformers I can think of, offhand. I prefer harder-edged aesthetics too (ninja/army/horror/cyber, or any mix thereof, dominates my favourite games), but I totally cheated myself ignoring stuff like Gimmick and RI for so long.

I'd rather have something with an ultra artistic aesthetic like lets say Psychedelic stuff;HR Giger;Claymation or maybe Rakuga Kids
I've never dissed cutesy games it was more like I can't tolerated non hardcore Games any longer or hardcore Games that are just memorization
And thanks a lot for recommending me Kirby' hard mode
I didn't even know it had one so was like in a mood to give it away
Thank god I didn't do that
I will keep the other ones in mind

Before I go off I'd like to recomend Motocross Manicas and it's sequels
That beast is on my 5 original GameBoy and it's hard to express why
I mean just try to 1cc it on the hardest difficulty and you will see what I mean

[BIL]

Gimmick (FC) is authentically hardcore and honestly pretty artistic, or "Realistic Another World." Some affectingly strange sights and sounds, particularly towards the end. Subtly more poignant and surreal than your typical cutesy platformer.

But yeah, I get what you mean. I dream of an action game with 100% inhumanity. Just pure incomprehensible cosmic horror with a cast of "characters" straight out of Masahiro Ito's faceless atrocity exhibition.

[FinalBaton]

It might be nostalgia, but SoR2's music is just amazing in my book. I don't listen to chiptunes much on their own, but that is one OST I need on my ipod (wouldn't mind owning the recent vinyl release too).

Check the FM synth thread for a great quality upload of SOR2's soundtrack

Yes both SOR 1 & 2 have an amazing soundtrack, and although people usually state the 2nd as having the best one, I'm permanently biased towards the 1st

same. I slightly prefer the 1st one. The 2nd one is still fucking excellent tho

[__SKYe]

same. I slightly prefer the 1st one. The 2nd one is still fucking excellent tho

Yeah, SOR 1's soundtrack is absolutely fantastic, although of course SOR 2's is almost equaly as good.
If there's one song from SOR 2 that I really like above all other in the same game, is the Stage 1 bar music (the jazzy, lounge track). It really constrasts with the other more techno tracks, and gives a fantastic ambience to that stage.

SOR 3 also a good soundtrack, but I think Koshiro went a little too much for the more heavy techno/house, so I don't enjoy it nearly as much.

Check the FM synth thread for a great quality upload of SOR2's soundtrack

Every once in a while, I also find myself playing either SOR 1 or 2's soundtrack from youtube.

[Skykid]

SOR 2 has the best soundtrack.

[__SKYe]

SOR 2 has the best soundtrack.

I'm not gonna argue with that as, as I said, I probably prefer the SOR 1's soundtrack, because that game has a special place in my heart.
One thing that I think SOR 2's soundtrack has better than the 1st, is that it sounds, for the lack of a better term, more 'full'.
I don't really know how to put it, and again, this may be purely my imagination, but SOR 2's seems sound more 'complex' to me (or rather, SOR 1's soundtrack sounds somewhat more 'simple').

Speaking of beat-em-up soundtracks, another game that I think has an awesome soundtrack, is Shin Nekketsu Kōha Kunio-kun: Kunio Tachi no Banka (SFC).

[FinalBaton]

One thing that I think SOR 2's soundtrack has better than the 1st, is that it sounds, for the lack of a better term, more 'full'.
I don't really know how to put it, and again, this may be purely my imagination, but SOR 2's seems sound more 'complex' to me

I think it's because SOR2's songs stuctures are a tad more complex (song parts are shorter, so it all moves quicker. and also there are sometimes more parts per song, too).

[TransatlanticFoe]

Semi-related to these mentions of Leynos... has anyone had experience with the PS2 version of Valken? I've mostly heard bitching about firing lock not working properly and wahhh it's too hard.

I love Valken/Cybernator but damn is it so easy once you learn to block. So a hard version is kinda interesting if it's not total bollocks.

Also 50 Hz PAL borders 4 lyfe!

I've always heard, from multiple people I trust, that the PS2 version removed the aim lock. I still can't quite believe it, but nor can I believe said folks were mistaken. That alone really turned me off tbh, the mechanic is so central to the original's inimitably satisfying handling... upped difficulty sounded good to me too, though, assuming it's not mostly down to the lack of lock.

It's still pretty cheap, might pick it up myself sometime. Would love to see some decent footage of it, I seem to recall it being hard to come by (at least on Youtube).

That's the fear, if it's hard just because the lock's gone. I've only seen vague descriptions but it suggests the lock is orientation only, so you can't walk backwards while firing - you turn around, aiming at the same angle (which is probably awkward to begin with but doesn't sound game-breakingly terrible). Doesn't seem to be any footage on youtube beyond the first stage but what's there seems to back up there partially being a lock. From same said footage, it also looks like it includes and translates dialogue scenes cut from Cybernator - interesting to find out whether it's got all the cut content, even the post-credits radio message that's missing from the Valken translation patch!

Only one way to find out, I guess...

[FinalBaton]

SOR 2 has the best soundtrack.

Non! SOR 1's is better

it's an EXTREMELY close call, tho

[Leandro]

SOR1 is definitely the better soundtrack. The compositions are more sophisticated than SOR2

[BIL]

I've only seen vague descriptions but it suggests the lock is orientation only, so you can't walk backwards while firing - you turn around, aiming at the same angle (which is probably awkward to begin with but doesn't sound game-breakingly terrible).

That's what I heard too.

I mean... I could understand adding this feature, though it sounds inherently a bit superfluous. Surely if I wanted to pivot madly while maintaining an upwards 45' angle (oo guvna), I could do that with a simple flick of the d-pad, like we've all done since Contra on the NES? And I could certainly get them adding a "lock position" mode that'd let you cycle through the directions without the mech moving. Contra: Shattered Soldier and Neo Contra did this, preserving Contra III's "lock position" button while adding Valken-style direction lock to the PS2's extra shoulder button.

Just the sort of thing that instantly makes me think something else in there's bound to be fucked up, too. And in this particular game, even aesthetic blunders are gonna sting. Ages back, I remember someone (can't remember who, but a diehard Valken/Masaya fan) noting that when your team launches in the st1 intro, you can notice the mech sprites are just sort of floating above the mothership, not visibly anchored ala the SFC's intro.

Spoiler

^ now that's suggestive! crazy-ass Gynoug/Cho Aniki chaps!

I wish I could do more than spectate either way. It certainly would be cool to know if they included the post-credits scene. Even the fan translation patch for SFC Valken I saw didn't bother, bahaha.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Arguing over the SoR1 vs 2 Soundtrack

They're both good! =D And the OST in the Remake is amazing too.

I think SoR3's is awful though, not necessarily because of composition quality but because I much prefer house music to that really heavy, grungy techno.

Fun fact - the Game Gear ports of SoR1 and SoR2 both have amazing music, but while SoR2 GG is actually a great port, SoR1 GG is basically near unplayable due to poor hit detection and awful controls (I wisely haven't played it in forever but I remember grab mechanics being broken somehow).

[FinalBaton]

They're both good! =D

I know! I said this also!

Fun fact - the Game Gear ports of SoR1 and SoR2 both have amazing music

yep. Yuzo ported the music himself, didn't he?

[Squire Grooktook]

Super Mario Assault Course

[FinalBaton]

Is that Time Assisted Squire? if not then that's insane, lol. love playthroughs were the player keeps moving forward and keeps a cool flow

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah it's from a live stream, true skills yo