Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Einzelherz]

I hate you all just a little bit, finding monitors lying about and actually for sale in your areas.

Just the tiniest bit.

[KatKya]

Hello!
Can you say which the differences between these models?

1. PVM-20M2U vs PVM-20M2E

U is the variant released in the Americas, E is the variant released in Europe.

2. PVM-20M2U vs PVM-20M4U

Two monitors from the same series(M Series). M4 has a better/sharper tube in it than the M2.(800 TVL vs 600 TVL)

3. PVM-20M2U vs PVM-20M2MDU

MDU is a Medical variant of the U. Slight changes to meet certain medical standards/requirments, and has an extra set of RGB/Component inputs, but visually, the two should be exactly the same(assuming tube condition is the same).

4. OEV-203 vs PVM-20M2MDU or OEV-203 vs PVM-20M2U

203 is a rebadge of the MDU. Internals should be almost if not exactly the same. Apply the above to 203 vs M2U.

5. PVM-20L2 vs PVM-20L4

Same idea as M2 vs M4; Two monitors from the same series, but different tiers; L2 is 600 TVL, L4 is 800.

6. PVM-20L4 vs PVM-20L5

Same series, same tube, different electronics. Both are 800TVL tubes, but the L5 has the proper electronics in it to display 480p, 720p, and 1080i, where the L4 is 240p/480i only(and PAL variants)

7. PVM-20L5 is minimum 480p/480i ? no 240p ?

L5 will do 240p/480i just as well as the L4 or any other SD only PVM; It can scan both 15khz and 30+khz signals natively.

8. P22 vs SMPTE C vs EBU

Different Phosphor types. All have to deal with accuracy in producing colors and life span. P22 is the type "lower end" stuff(non-BVMs for the most part) and consumer TVs tend to use, but "stay calibrated" longer. SMPTE and EBU are more accurate, but need to be calibrated more often. EBU is used in Europe, SMPTE in America(I believe). I also believe P22 phosphors have a long lifespan than SMPTE/EBU.

9. 20-inch Trinitron vs 20-inch HR Trinitron

For the most part, marketing stuff. Mostly relates to the type of tube used and the TVL count. Same idea as "Trinitron Black" and "Super Fine Pitch Trinitron" in the older late 80s/early 90s Trinitrons.

10 NTSC vs NTSC 4.43

Oddball variant of the standard NTSC video system.

11 Or there is no differences between: PVM-20Mxxx PVM-20Lx ?

L Series replaced the M series. It's newer, features a different OSD, and the inner-workings are very likely different. An L series won't explicitly be better than an M Series, but the reverse is true as well.


Not impossible that I slipped up on something, feel free to correct me if you see something.

[Ed Oscuro]

Absolutely excellent & clear post. As an addition, I think that the MDU models might just differ in that they were: submitted for extra compliance tests, have medical-grade power plugs (I've got some with my L2s, they are a bit different than the usual black PC power cord, but seem functionally identical and can be used in any standard home outlet), and have some different informational stickers. These monitors could be supplied with plastic "splash guards," installed over the vents, but these might be optional as I haven't seen them installed on some ex-medical monitors. In short, there isn't much that matters. The tiers seem to make more of a difference; one of the bullet points for the L4 was that it was designed for very low frequency (electromagnetic) emissions, implying that the L2 doesn't have that feature. Then again, that could be misleading.

[vasya228]

KatKya, thanks for your great answer!

Some refinements:
1. What differences between US vs Euro model?
6. So PVM-20L5 is better than any other PVM for 480p/720p consoles ? (PS2 DC GC XBOX).
Or all these PVM monitors are good for both 240p and 480p/720p consoles?
Or for 480p/720p consoles BVM is much better than any PVM?

[Guspaz]

Most PVMs (like the L2) can't do 480p at all. They only do 240p and 480i. Some, like the L5, can do 480p.

[KatKya]

KatKya, thanks for your great answer!

Some refinements:

1. What differences between US vs Euro model?

For ones that aren't Multi-voltage, a different power supply for one. There are also likely other small tweaks to the electronics and/or calibration done, though not as much as say an Australian model(A designation) as those have to be calibrated to work in the Southern Hemisphere.

6. So PVM-20L5 is better than any other PVM for 480p/720p consoles ? (PS2 DC GC XBOX).

Aside from seemingly one other oddball PVM which seems quite rare, the 14L5 and 20L5 are the only PVMs that actually support 480p+

Or all these PVM monitors are good for both 240p and 480p/720p consoles?

See above. The rest of the models you mentioned are all limited to SD resolutions, be it 240p/480i or 288p/576i.

Or for 480p/720p consoles BVM is much better than any PVM?

Not all BVMs are 480p+ compatible; Only those listed as MultiFormat do. BVMs are much more complicated beasts than PVMs, but the best BVM will obviously out do the best PVM in pure picture quality, but that can actually be a fault in some circles. It'd be hard to give a specific and precise answer, as there are many things that would factor in to it.

All that said, quality and condition should almost always take precedent over specific models. I'd rather have an older, perhaps technically inferior monitor in better condition than a newer one with problems.

[vasya228]

KatKya Guspaz
Thank you for answers

[LDigital]

I just picked up a pvm 2950q and I absolutely love it. There's a few tiny tweaks I'd like to make to the geometry to make it perfect but I'm getting stuck. I can get it into the service menu by pressing
Display > 5 > vol up > power
That brings the service menu which has listed
RESET U MEM
GEO DEST
D CONV
W BALANCE
CHROMA

I can use 1&4 to select up and down but I have pressed every button on the control and can't go into any of the options so I cant go any further. Any ideas what I do next?

[atheistgod1999]

Along with the aforementioned 20" Panasonic I found with perfect convergence and near-perfect geometry (it's also a shadow mask despite being made in 2003), I also found a 27" WEGA (KV-27FS200) that was the opposite. I was able to fix the vertical linearity via the service menu, but not horizontal linearity or vertical pincushion distortion (caused by not compensating for the further distance the beam has to travel to the left and right sides), which has the same horizontal compression on the left side that my BVM also has, but more severe and is also stretched on the right side. It also has pretty bad convergence on the sides and corners. Is trying to fix a flatscreen CRT a lost cause?

[vasya228]

How to connect two PVM monitors? For example 20L4 OUT + 14L2 IN
Which BNC-BNC cable i need to use? Four cables like this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/191803273231

[nissling]

Yep, that's correct. All professional CRT monitors have BNC female for input and output.

[vasya228]

nissling thank you!

How can i see how many hours played on PVM monitor? All lifetime use in hours.
Or i should check Service Manual and Operating Instructions? How this function is named?

[nissling]

There's no way to show the amount of hours on the PVM monitors. Only the BVM have this feature.

[amaradona]

So finally got a BVM D24 and so far everything I tried was great...except the PSP go with the component cables.
I am outputing in 480p but the visible screen is quite small.I know the psp signal is scaled in a 480p windows but any way to get fullscreen without tweaking the BVM settings?

[atheistgod1999]

So finally got a BVM D24 and so far everything I tried was great...except the PSP go with the component cables.
I am outputing in 480p but the visible screen is quite small.I know the psp signal is scaled in a 480p windows but any way to get fullscreen without tweaking the BVM settings?

You'd be cropping the image.

EDIT: I realized you were talking about the 16:9 model. I thought you were talking about 4:3.

[KatKya]

So finally got a BVM D24 and so far everything I tried was great...except the PSP go with the component cables.
I am outputing in 480p but the visible screen is quite small.I know the psp signal is scaled in a 480p windows but any way to get fullscreen without tweaking the BVM settings?

You could get something close to fullscreen, since the PSP natively outputs something close to a 16:9 image, but not outside of changing stuff with the BVM. Honestly a simple overscan adjustment should be all you really need.
I do exactly that for GBA games and the like; They get output windowboxed in a 240p signal, and hitting the overscan button on the PVM almost fills the screen(horizontally).

[vasya228]

Hello!
Why system menu is jumping on PVM screen?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDv1vV5mluI

[ryu]

Normal behavior. It stabilizes when you have a source running.

[vasya228]

Ok, thank you. I'm awaiting cables

[Guspaz]

Normal behavior. It stabilizes when you have a source running.

Mine doesn't. As you adjust the geometry on my PVM (even shifting left and right on the horizontal), the menus are either perfectly stable, shaking around, or completely invisible.

[Ed Oscuro]

Normal behavior. It stabilizes when you have a source running.

Mine doesn't. As you adjust the geometry on my PVM (even shifting left and right on the horizontal), the menus are either perfectly stable, shaking around, or completely invisible.

Same here.

[FinalBaton]

Tried some anime dvd's in 480i over s-video on the NEC multisync and it looks great (Sure the color reproduction is not as nice as RGB, but still the shading is well nuanced and nicely rendered, and the line art is very sharp. Totally satisfying to watch). I will actually upgrade to RGB with the help of an HDMI-to-RGB converter. There are cheap ones online, so this won't break the bank.

yes, the ideal solution is to deinterlace and then upscale. But what I'm trying to say is that keeping it in 480i is still a very sensible solution. It looks good and you won't need a DVDO.

But if you have money that's burning in your pocket and want to experience the best of what your monitor can offer, then you should go for the DVDO, absolutely.

I know I'm not teaching anybody anything new here. But sometime it's important to remind ourselves of those sensible alternatives, especially in a hobby where we are constantly chasing after the pinnacle, pushing technologies to their performance limits.

It's the classic AV law of exponentially diminishing returns : you invest the equivalent of 80% of your setup's worth in upgrades, and said setup will receive a bonus in performance of only 20%, etc etc. Now was that investment worth it to you? Only you can decide...

[Fudoh]

If your monitor can display 31khz you just owe it to yourself to get that from a DVD. You don't have to buy a universal processor like a DVDO to do just that. You can get a 10-year old high-end DVD player with integrated linedoubling and it will look awesome on your CRT.

[FinalBaton]

If your monitor can display 31khz you just owe it to yourself to get that from a DVD. You don't have to buy a universal processor like a DVDO to do just that. You can get a 10-year old high-end DVD player with integrated linedoubling and it will look awesome on your CRT.

Just added to my post that I'm getting an HDMI-to-RGB converter, since those are cheap. So I will definitly try this through my 2 players.

Your post falls in line with the last part of my previous post (regarding : using a cheaper alternative than a DVDO), so I like that.

But I also wanted to point out that good 15kHz pro CRT monitors will also give a very nice and enjoyable image with dvds, even if it's 480i. (I hate 480i for gaming but for film it's less of a problem to me). So people with those sets should not shy away from enjoying dvds on a CRT IMO. They should embrace it and I'll think they'll have a lot of fun. I guess this was really the main point I wanted to make in my previous post (forgot to write about 480i only sets though, my mistake).

[FinalBaton]

This is the converter that I'm eying btw :

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/E-More-1080P-HDM ... SwUdlWedC4

I hope it's gonna work with blu-ray, HDCP-wise though :
"Support HDMI1.3 version (compatible with 1.0/1.1/1.2), automatic detection HDCP."
it doesn't mention wich HDCP version it supports, so I'm a little worried

[bobrocks95]

If your monitor can display 31khz you just owe it to yourself to get that from a DVD. You don't have to buy a universal processor like a DVDO to do just that. You can get a 10-year old high-end DVD player with integrated linedoubling and it will look awesome on your CRT.

I think you touched on this earlier, so sorry for the repeating, but do you have any in particular to recommend? Should I start digging through old AV sites looking for reviews of high-end players, or is there a certain recommended brand to look for on ebay and just buy what's available? I just feel like searching for "high-end DVD player" isn't really the way to go about things.

[FinalBaton]

You can get a 10-year old high-end DVD player with integrated linedoubling

If I ever see one in the classified here for cheap, I'll snag it for sure.
In the meantime, the Oppo OPDV971H and Sony BDP-S5500 will have to do for dvds.

[Fudoh]

or is there a certain recommended brand to look for on ebay and just buy what's available?

I think we established that for movie DVDs many current BD players are pretty good as well, e.g. the Sony ones and even the cheaper ones.

For DVD players the problem is that we didn't get the same models as you got in the US and if we got them they had different model descriptions. A bit hard to recommend something.

[Tarma]

Can anyone recommend a good 25" CRT display for use with lightgun games - e.g. Time Crisis series?

I had a really good 1992 Panasonic 25" set, but it recently got damaged and I could do with finding a suitable replacement.

[FinalBaton]

or is there a certain recommended brand to look for on ebay and just buy what's available?

I think we established that for movie DVDs many current BD players are pretty good as well, e.g. the Sony ones and even the cheaper ones.

For DVD players the problem is that we didn't get the same models as you got in the US and if we got them they had different model descriptions. A bit hard to recommend something.

Not gonna start bombarding you with "how about this one"s and "how about that one"s, but if I may, I'd like your opinion on the following, and maybe another one later (but I promise that will be it ) :

based on the specs, would you say that the Oppo DV-983H is a high end unit? It has the same Anchor bay chips for deinterlacing(ABT102) and scaling(ABT1018) as the iScan VP30