Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[angryswede]

OK,

Interestingly here in sunny California, some local sellers decided to sell their CRTs.

$499 for a Sony BVM-20F1U

Here in Sweden the 20" BVM:s are very very uncommon. I would gladly pay $499 for it if it were in good running condition and could be picked up locally. But that's only from a swedish perspective.
Point is, value always depends on regional availability more than actual monetary value

[STG]

Well, after talking about it earlier in the thread, I finally found the free time to pick one of these up (a BVM-20G1U) and get all the proper cables and stuff that I would need for this monitor. I found one locally from a very nice smaller company who sold a TON of professional broadcasting equipment and they had a massive amount of BVM's in every flavor... I think I found my future source if I want a larger model, heh. The guys who I dealt with were really cool and enthusiastic, and when I told them what I was using it for they were kind of surprised! Loaded it up into my car and off I went.

Once I was able to hook up the remote (which by the way, if it's not internal/attached you will ABSOLUTELY NEED this when you purchase one of these monitors), you can start to properly use this beast. I use Euro SCART as the standard in my RGB setup, so a basic SCART to BNC cable worked with most consoles that I tested. But since I'm using this just for vert arcade PCB's I ran into a problem with that basic setup, and I was getting a very hot, white-looking picture that wouldn't be fixed by adjusting brightness and contrast. No surprise there. I solved this by using an Extron sync processing unit that helped me out when I was having some similar issues with my NEC XM29 Xtra a while back, so I'd also highly recommend getting one.



Wish I had a better camera, this picture doesn't do it justice.

But what was a nice surprise for me? I daisy-chained the monitors using the XM29's BNC out directly to my BVM's BNC analog in, and I didn't even need to have my XM29 on to play games on the BVM. Very, very cool. Gotta love these high end monitors!

[kamiboy]

Yesterday I decided to put the signal syncing mettle of the 14L5 to the test by hooking an old DOS machine to it via RGB.

An XM29 this monitor certainly is not. Turns out whatever signal the command prompt puts out does not work, and neither does any game not capable of outputting a 640x480 resolution. In other words any PC game I would ever be interested in revisiting since those pretty much all run in mode 13h.

Only way to get a stable 13h picture on the monitor is to load a 640x480 game first, quit it and then launch your 13h game. That way the image doesn't scroll in dizzying patterns, alas you are still stuck playing in B&W for some reason.

Bah, humbug.

[Fudoh]

what's mode 13h ? I've been using DOS based machines for ages, but never used the term. Are you refering to MCGA in 320x200 in 31khz mode ?

[Necronopticous]

I found one locally from a very nice smaller company who sold a TON of professional broadcasting equipment and they had a massive amount of BVM's in every flavor... I think I found my future source if I want a larger model, heh.

What were there prices like (if you don't mind me asking)?

[STG]

An XM29 this monitor certainly is not.

Yeah, the XM29 is nuts, you can throw pretty much anything at that monitor and it displays.

I've owned quite a few RGB monitors in the past: a Megaview, a couple PVM's, the XM29 Xtra (which I love), now this BVM. They all have their strong and weak points: what works, what doesn't, etc. But man the visual output on that BVM is simply incredible, makes me wonder what the 32" BVM looks like...

What were there prices like (if you don't mind me asking)?

Not too bad IMO, all together I paid $500 for mine with the remote. Even though I saw some finish cheaper on eBay, I didn't have to pay for shipping so that helped justify the price, and with the monitor being in excellent condition (low hours, the glass was perfect and scratch free, hardly any cosmetic wear), I was quite happy with my purchase. They also fully tested the unit, had it on for me when I got there, and said if I had any problems with it I could swing by anytime. That's nice to know!

Other BVM units they had ranged a bit from my price above, some more, some less. They had some really interesting LCD's (I think?) and large Plasma sets that I never saw before, almost everything with analog RGB BNC inputs... perfect for my setup!

[kamiboy]

what's mode 13h ? I've been using DOS based machines for ages, but never used the term. Are you refering to MCGA in 320x200 in 31khz mode ?

Mode 13h is indeed a programming nomenclature for the 320x200@256 colours graphic mode on IBM PC's.

According to video refesh tables it is 31khz horizontal and 70hz vertical.

[Fudoh]

I have to admit, I never knew that those DOS games were running at 70Hz instead of 60Hz.

[kamiboy]

Well, I am only quoting charts I found after a google search. Might be wrong.

What are my options for 13h gaming on the L5? A PCI card with S-video TV out? Would that put out 240p or 480i?

[Fudoh]

Na, you're probably right, most pages say the same.

Your options are to skip the idea, neither s-video nor any other SD connection supports 70Hz. You're lucky enough that it the L5 syncs with the trick above. 240p and 480i can't be "bend" to 70Hz.

The 70Hz are especially interesting because this way neither down- or upscaling makes any sense. The only way is to use the genuine 400p70 timing.

Getting a bit OT: I wonder how DosBox handles those games when the monitor's refresh is 60Hz...

[kamiboy]

Are you saying that PCI cards with TV out wont work with mode 13 games? I doubt that would have been acceptable.

I am going to have to hook up my PC CRT monitor on the morrow and confirm this whole 70hz nonesense. I doubt any mode 13h DOS game was capable of rendering more than 30fps, let alone 70, but I too am curious about how DOSBOX works around that.

[Fudoh]

Are you saying that PCI cards with TV out wont work with mode 13 games?

no, but I would say that there's a nasty little video IC on those cards which performs the scan conversion. I mean, if you HAVE to do it, at least use a proper Extron machine to handle the conversion from 400p70 to 480i60. I mean, what are we talking about ? $50 maybe ?

I am going to have to hook up my PC CRT monitor on the morrow and confirm this whole 70hz nonesense. I doubt any mode 13h DOS game was capable of rendering more than 30fps, let alone 70

you're right there, but there have been a few very nicely and especially smoothly scrolling action titles which require a v-sync lock.

[kamiboy]

What is this 400p business about though? Wouldnt it be 200p?

Besides that, what magic can a extron perform to turn 70hz to 60hz without issues? That being said I do think 13h PC games are going to look rsther gahstly displayed in 480i regsrdless. Maybe I'll just get an Amiga 500 monitor once I am back in Europe. I plan on buying an Amiga 500 in the future anyway.

[Fudoh]

What is this 400p business about though? Wouldnt it be 200p?

no, we're talking 31khz timings, don't we ? 320x200 is output as 640x400, so it's the same timing as the bios/splash screen during boot up.

Besides that, what magic can a extron perform to turn 70hz to 60hz without issues?

no, but at least the quality would be better with component or RGBs output.

That being said I do think 13h PC games are going to look rsther gahstly displayed in 480i regsrdless. Maybe I'll just get an Amiga 500 monitor once I am back in Europe. I plan on buying an Amiga 500 in the future anyway.

But that's a 15khz monitor again. And you bought the L5 for 31khz signals, didn't you ? We're moving in circles, aren't we ? Maybe you should just use a PC monitor for PC gaming.

[kamiboy]

Bah, I thought Amiga monitors were like PC monitors only with 15khz support to boot. I'll be damned if I am going to be keeping a PC monitor around in addition to all my other hardware.

I'll just get my PC gaming out of the way before I toss this 20" I got here and never look back again. PC is not really even a priority.

That is interesting about 13h being output as 400p, explains why it lacks the scanline spacing of 240p. I had always wondedred about that you see. Or maybe scanline spacing is just a consequence of interlace scanning hardware?

[Ed Oscuro]

XM29 versus the BVMs: The better choice for arcade and console compatibility is..?

The bit above about the 14L5 has me wondering if those BVMs and PVMs will sync with unusually timed boards, like Raiden II/DX or the Raiden Fighters series (it's RII that's ben problematic for me).

Also, did NEC make a Multisync with the same features as the XM29 / XM29+ but smaller?

[STG]

XM29 versus the BVMs: The better choice for arcade and console compatibility is..?

Since getting this monitor up and running I've only tested the BVM with 3 different boards: Futari BL (above), Progear (of course), and Ketsui, but I'll give you my thoughts so far, and that is I've needed to use an Extron sync processor with both monitors, but for different reasons. Basically, I couldn't get a completely stable picture with certain boards on the XM29 and I'd get a flicker every 20/30 seconds, and I was getting an overly white/bright image with the BVM. Either way, I would absolutely recommended picking up an Extron sync processor to go along with your supergun setup with both of these monitors, it ironed out any issue I ever had!

Coincidentally, I never had any of these arcade PCB display problems with any PVM I've had or the Megaview... So in terms of just "out of the box" arcade compatibility, those two would win. But once you use the sync processor, I gotta say, the picture quality on the BVM so far has me the most impressed!

Console-wise, I don't think you'll have a problem with any of these RGB monitor's at least from what I've used. They are much more stable. Although I haven't tested everything I have yet on my BVM, but so far so good, even RGB modded consoles like my AV Famicom worked perfectly on it.

I wish I could test my setup out with any of the finicky Seibu games like Raiden II for you Ed to check but I don't own any of their boards, sorry about that.

[Ed Oscuro]

That's really helpful, thanks!

I've honestly forgotten about the XM29 recently although it's been mentioned many times over the years. Going from the tube size, though, I'm not sure I'd want to try to get one. I'll look around and see what I can find in a smaller format.

Your mention of the Extron makes me wonder if that's all I need to get Raiden II working via the PC VGA (itself a NEC MultiSync, but just a PC monitor branded as such) because I do get the image flickering on - it just won't stay on, but is stuck in a process of continually trying to grab a frame at a time, then dropping it, then grabbing another. That does seem like a sync issue to me.

[STG]

Not a problem!

I've read about the problems people have had with Seibu boards for years now, I wonder if the Extron is the answer you're looking for. It never hurt's to try! Personally, I'd probably look towards a PVM, I found it the most stable for older boards that I have, even games that aren't JAMMA.

It's tough to recommend what works best overall, everyone has a different setup and has different tastes, it comes down to what works best for you and your personal preference. I've always tried to find what works best for everything, but it comes with compromises. Every monitor I've used is like that, great for certain things, lacking in others.

[panzeroceania]

Well, after talking about it earlier in the thread, I finally found the free time to pick one of these up (a BVM-20G1U)

What's the difference between the BVM-20F1U and BVM-20G1U, or was that a typo?

[NWrain]

I only took a quick look.

The 20F1U has 900 lines, and has 5 slots for input boards.

The 20G1U has 800 lines, and has 2 slots for input boards.

[STG]

What's the difference between the BVM-20F1U and BVM-20G1U, or was that a typo?

Not a typo, I'm using the G, and NWrain posted the major differences above.

[SharkSkin-Man]

Does anybody have experience of Ikegami displays?

[mesmer]

I've got a BVM-A20F1U on my way from ebay. Also have an offer out on a BKM-15R

Anyone have any experience with the BVM-Dxx or BVM-Axx line?

[Fudoh]

The A series are the successors to the model I originally reviewed. They come with a HD chassis (for 720p and 1080i) and overhauled controls. *WAY* too expensive over here though. What did you pay for yours ? Most 20" A models come with a 16:9 bezel which mask the 4:3 tube, so you might have to look for a 4:3 replacement bezel.

[Ed Oscuro]

btw, I think many classic DOS games run @35 FPS - possibly for the reason mentioned above. DOOM having a 35FPS refresh never made sense until now.

[22point8]

Yesterday I opened up my £50 (£32+£18p&p) PVM-2044QM and adjusted the pots with some insulated screw drivers, I used the 240p test suite for normal scan, and Strider 2 screen adjustment (512x480 smpte bars) for underscan. I also adjusted the focus and the picture and scan lines are incredibly sharp now. The whole top and back cover come off as one part and its suprisingly heavy! The steel must be about 2mm thick, the entire casing is steel except the back which is plastic and the bezel which is some kind of super hard plastic. I found the manufacture date on the back of the electro gun board it said 90-1-19 which I guess means it was made on 19-1-90, almost 23 years old!. This compared to the my £35 PVM-1454QM with missing Sony badge, missing front rack handle, and cracked plastic bottom. A shared issue with both though is a slight picture rotation that the V-Angle control can't fix, I guess I'd have to mess around with the yoke which I'm not going to do. BTW the camera on my phone always seems to go macro the grille isn't actually visible.


2044 240p test suite compromised for best geometry


2044 240p linearity pattern


2044 Sonic 1


2044 Sonic 1


2044 Sonic 1


Super Hang On 1454QM

Whats the difference between HR Trinitron and Super Fine Pitch? I though HR was newer, but Fagin's 1987 BVM has it.

[fagin]

Looking good!

AFAIK those two narratives ultimately mean the same thing. They both go hand in hand.

[mesmer]

The A series are the successors to the model I originally reviewed. They come with a HD chassis (for 720p and 1080i) and overhauled controls. *WAY* too expensive over here though. What did you pay for yours ? Most 20" A models come with a 16:9 bezel which mask the 4:3 tube, so you might have to look for a 4:3 replacement bezel.

520 USD Hopefully it works! Was looking at the PVM-20L5 too, but really wanted the BVM-(D/A)20F1U. The D24 looks nice, but tating would be a pain. The one I got has both bezels, so no worries there. My offer went through on the remote, so that will be coming later.

[22point8]

Here is a 2130 lookalike in Final Fight CD.