New Scanline generator SLG3000 - available now!

The place for all discussion on gaming hardware
User avatar
Konsolkongen
Posts: 2318
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 8:28 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Konsolkongen »

trunk wrote: Sonic 1 on Sega Genesis Collection on PS2 via Component->HD Box Pro->SLG3000->DVDO Edge->TV
Image

...
This would be an acceptable substitute for me:

-Sega Genesis Collection
-PS2+Component Cable
-HD Box Pro
-SLG3000
I'm surprised how good this looks actually. The EU version (SEGA MegaDrive Collection) I have is extremely blurry even in 480p. Is that the case with the US version too? If that setup can make compilations like these playable then I'll have to get Capcom Classic Collections again :)
headlesshobbs
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:14 pm

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by headlesshobbs »

I mentioned something about the hdboxpro being a shitty scaler awhile back and I'm not sure if it's anything to do with the fact they took 480p out or they just didn't care about accuracy when they made it. The other alternative I'm starting to look at is that CGA/VGA converter, but from what I hear it's got the same type of processor in it. Anyone know if it can do scaling properly via geometry settings?

I'm quite anal for doing these things line-for-line. Show me something that's even slightly off and it becomes the first thing I'll pick up on.

Edit: I just wanted to note that on the component signal being green, I've been wondering if this is something Winni would like to work on for a future revision? I think it would really settle the gap of hooking up to your set directly as we all know there's plenty of transcoders out there that can't maintain the correct aspect ratio and it would settle the headache of having to deal with it.
"Don't HD my SD!!"
fagin
Posts: 1654
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:29 pm
Location: UK

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by fagin »

headlesshobbs wrote:I mentioned something about the hdboxpro being a shitty scaler awhile back and I'm not sure if it's anything to do with the fact they took 480p out or they just didn't care about accuracy when they made it. The other alternative I'm starting to look at is that CGA/VGA converter, but from what I hear it's got the same type of processor in it. Anyone know if it can do scaling properly via geometry settings?

I'm quite anal for doing these things line-for-line. Show me something that's even slightly off and it becomes the first thing I'll pick up on.

Edit: I just wanted to note that on the component signal being green, I've been wondering if this is something Winni would like to work on for a future revision? I think it would really settle the gap of hooking up to your set directly as we all know there's plenty of transcoders out there that can't maintain the correct aspect ratio and it would settle the headache of having to deal with it.
Which CGA to VGA convertor are you referring to mate? Is it the Ebay one I have tested and linked to a few posts back?
User avatar
Animaitor
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:33 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Animaitor »

Is http://www.arcadeforge.de down?

Edit: Never mind... it seems it's loading now.
Last edited by Animaitor on Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
xavierjesus wrote:Fcuking love sticks made from random objects. I'm off now actually to buy a plastic vagina...
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13017
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Fudoh »

we all know there's plenty of transcoders out there that can't maintain the correct aspect ratio and it would settle the headache of having to deal with it.
a transcoder doesn't change anything on the aspect ratio, otherwise it's technically not a transcoder.
headlesshobbs
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:14 pm

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by headlesshobbs »

fagin wrote:Which CGA to VGA convertor are you referring to mate? Is it the Ebay one I have tested and linked to a few posts back?
This one. http://cgi.ebay.com/CGA-VGA-Converter-/ ... 230deab279
"Don't HD my SD!!"
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13017
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Fudoh »

The CGA to VGA converter is just the same as the HDBoxPro, minus the Motion detection setting which allows proper 240p linedoubling, plus a RGBs input (which requires clean, stripped sync). If you invest a few $$ more and start look overseas you'll find decent processors which easily outperform all cheap converters and likely offer RGBs (with no need for sync stripping) out of the box.
fagin
Posts: 1654
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:29 pm
Location: UK

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by fagin »

Since I am in for some messing around and experimentation, I am now going to build a LM1881 sync amplifier / HV Sync splitter to fit prior to the RGBHV input on this convertor for my own use (with an additional female SCART connector). The bits for the circuit cost about £5, and this will enable me to have RGBs, DSUB15, Component and SCART RGB (both composite sync and sync on green) from a single unit. Bang it in a nice little plastic box and you have a great little multi-purpose VGA Scaler!
Niraflen
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:38 pm
Location: Japan

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Niraflen »

Following up from my earlier post, finally tested Mega Man Anniversary Collection on the PS2. I confirmed that 1-8 render the correct scanlines with DIP 4 off and DIP 5 on (using an XRGB-3 in B1). The opposite settings cause a shakier, blurrier image and text and energy meters become more difficult to look at. The usual issues that come from 240p games running in a 480i signal apply.

There is a catch though. Mega Man 1-6 have 'original' and 'enhanced' modes. Original = original NES, while enhanced = visually upgraded HUD, enhanced music (varies from game to game) and some extra status screens. The catch comes when running the games in enhanced mode. When you use the above settings, the game is clear but the HUD becomes shaky/blurry and the energy meter lines kind of blend together. If you invert the DIP switches, the game will be shaky/blurry, but the HUD will be nice and clean and the energy meter lines will be distinct from one another. It's not huge, but it's distracting when you're explicitly looking for it (which is the kind of thing we're all doing right now).

I'd want to test whether deinterlacing the game instead of line doubling would fix this (minor) issue, but my only option at the moment is using the XRGB-3 in B0 mode, and it doesn't render images correctly on the 640x480 B0 setting on my main display, and higher settings won't give the correct scanline appearance for old Mega Man games.
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13017
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Fudoh »

Yes, proper deinterlacing will fix this, but it will also cause more blur than the XRGB's B1 mode.
User avatar
SGGG2
Posts: 776
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:03 am
Location: East Coast, US

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by SGGG2 »

Niraflen, try booting the game into 480p with HD Xploder or GS Mode Selector.
Niraflen
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:38 pm
Location: Japan

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Niraflen »

SGGG2 wrote:Niraflen, try booting the game into 480p with HD Xploder or GS Mode Selector.
I have before, but I just tried again to confirm. Either of those solutions always crashes to a black screen for me after the initial loading screen on the disc (before the title screen). Same goes for the Street Fighter Anniversary Collection disc, which is one of the reasons the SLG-3000 is very welcome in combination with the PS2.

Interesting side note: using GS Mode Selector to set NTSC NI to NTSC-I field (i.e.: 240p mode) does work for Mega Man Anniversary Collection... sometimes. Sometimes it crashes to a black screen like in the 480p case above, and sometimes it just works. When it works, it's the best solution yet (for that title).

When it works, the games look like correct 240p (even gets rid of some of the minor shakiness usually seen in this title). Subjectively, I find the result looks nicer using this forced 240p signal and the XRGB-3's scanline overlay than the 480i signal > XRGB-3 > SLG-3000 method referred to earlier. (For anyone who's curious, Street Fighter Anniversary Collection doesn't seem to work with this method, it always crashed to a black screen when I tried regardless of a 480p or 240p setting. SLG-3000 is definitely the way to go there.)

Technical Sidebar:

All that being said, I found a glitch in the 'enhanced' HUD energy meters. This seems to be a flaw with the title itself, because I found it in original 480i mode and in the modified 240p mode. It turns out that the top bar of the energy meter is sometimes thicker than the other bars. It isn't always; it depends on the level of the meter at that time. In some locations, the top bar will have the normal thickness, and in some locations the top bar will have a slightly increased thickness. Running via GS Mode Selector in the 240p configuration, this bar looks like it's doubled with a scanline running through the center of it. Alternatively, if I hook up the PS2 directly to my television set and let it deinterlace a normal 480i signal, one can still see the top energy bar is thicker depending on its location.

Got curious and compared this to a Rockman Complete Works title off which MMAC was based (Complete Works titles ran in 240p and all of the extra status screens were also in 240p, not high-res like on the PS2 Anniversary Collection). The energy bar graphical glitch isn't present in the original, it's pixel perfect. This bug is unique to the Anniversary Collection implementation. In the Rockman Complete Works title, the bars are always the same size. Furthermore, the energy bars in Anniversary Collection aren't always lined up correctly; the energy bar's border is thicker for filled parts of the meter vs. empty parts of the meter.

These are all minor things that don't particularly detract from gameplay, but were just interesting to find. Probably wouldn't have noticed these things either if I hadn't picked up the SLG-3000 with the intent to test it out with this title, so cheers.
headlesshobbs
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:14 pm

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by headlesshobbs »

Fudoh wrote:The CGA to VGA converter is just the same as the HDBoxPro, minus the Motion detection setting which allows proper 240p linedoubling, plus a RGBs input (which requires clean, stripped sync). If you invest a few $$ more and start look overseas you'll find decent processors which easily outperform all cheap converters and likely offer RGBs (with no need for sync stripping) out of the box.
That's kind of bugging me since I have a VP250 with a busted RGB/YUV port and can only get s-video to work. I'm pretty sure this would have been perfect otherwise.
User avatar
SGGG2
Posts: 776
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:03 am
Location: East Coast, US

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by SGGG2 »

All things considered, I think the HD Box looks pretty good. If money's an issue it's your only option anyway... besides staking out ebay and hoping for a deal...

Okay, looks like I can adjust color intensity (and brightness, not technically though) with Y_GAIN, PB_GAIN, PR_GAIN on the XSelect via input 4. These settings have little to no effect through input 1(!) The PS3 looks fantastic.
nuskool
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:30 pm

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by nuskool »

fagin wrote:For anyone that is interested.....

I had delivered one of the Ebay CGA/EGA to VGA convertors http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Video-Converter-P ... 27adbc143c today and tried it with connecting various inputs (PS2 component, SNES RGB SCART etc) and the picture quality is good for the price of the scaler. I believe these use the same chipset as the HDBOXPRO and the results are very good with the SLG in-line showing scanlines on a LCD. This scaler certainly gives a better picture than my previous "cheap" one. You have to mess around with the sync signal to allow it to accept a converted SCART RGB feed, but it will work with this kind of signal (especially useful for us EU retro console owners). Has a great benefit of accepting component, JAMMA and of course a SCART RGB signal (in the end).

Overall very impressed with the results.
Forgive me for being thick but how did you connect an RGB scart from say a SNES to this?
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13017
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Fudoh »

by using a Scart to DSub15 adapter. Your Scart cable has to use composite sync from the SNES though. If you want to use composite sync you'll have to add a sync stripper.
User avatar
trunk
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:02 am

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by trunk »

Konsolkongen wrote: I'm surprised how good this looks actually. The EU version (SEGA MegaDrive Collection) I have is extremely blurry even in 480p. Is that the case with the US version too? If that setup can make compilations like these playable then I'll have to get Capcom Classic Collections again :)
I haven't checked running the compilation straight from ps2 to tv in 480p in a long time but I think it was a little blurry, nothing too bad. I do have capcom classics collection vol 1 on ps2 and I think that one is blurrier than the Genesis Collection.

The main thing I saw from this was that there needs to be some adjustment on the hd box pro to get more pronounced difference on for example the small leaves on the sun flowers, on the xrgb it's clear it's light and dark, on the hdbox it looks less distinct. Like on the closeup on Sonic's face on the xrgb it is clear defined white and brown, on the hdbox it's blended brownish. I guess it's possible that that is the compilation itself blurring it a little since there are different factors to those two setups.
Current Setup:

720P------------------------v
240P->XRGB-3->Edge->4x2 matrix->DLP HDTV
480i/P->YPbPrselect-^ . . ^ . . V-->hdmi2vga->Super Emotia->Tate CRT SDTV
PC->vga2hdmi-------------^
neorichieb1971
Posts: 7696
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:28 am
Location: Bedford, UK
Contact:

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by neorichieb1971 »

What is the best hardware to use with the SLG3000?

I already have an XRGB2 + SLG3000. Any thing else I should need or want?
This industry has become 2 dimensional as it transcended into a 3D world.
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13017
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Fudoh »

depends on your sources, doesn't it ? Anything you aren't happy with ?
User avatar
Rossyra
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:08 pm

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Rossyra »

Here's another shot, DC > VGA box > SLG3000 > Sony CRT

BTW Fudoh, your site is awesome, please keep up the good work, it is very much appreciated :D

Image
bk2099
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:39 pm

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by bk2099 »

neorichieb1971 wrote:What is the best hardware to use with the SLG3000?

I already have an XRGB2 + SLG3000. Any thing else I should need or want?
How is the XRGB2's native scanline option VS the SLG3000?
I have the XRGB2, wondering if the SLG3000 is necessary.
gundamalpha
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:20 pm
Location: Australia

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by gundamalpha »

XRGB2's scanline may be a little too dark to some
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13017
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Fudoh »

I would add the SLG3000 to the XRGB's output. This way you get adjustable scanline density and support for scanlines on 480i inputs.
fagin
Posts: 1654
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:29 pm
Location: UK

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by fagin »

I just plugged the PS2 into my Samsung 46" LCD downstairs via SCART RGB -> SYNC STRIPPER -> CGA to VGA SCALER -> SLG3000 to SAMSUNG and it looked mint. Tried a 240p and 480i games and it was a great picture. I can't believe how much adding scanlines, not only looks great on a LCD, but cleans up the scaled image no end.

I was considering buying some different scalers to try, but to be honest, this set-up is great on the LCD's I have tbh.
fagin
Posts: 1654
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:29 pm
Location: UK

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by fagin »

nuskool wrote:
fagin wrote:For anyone that is interested.....

I had delivered one of the Ebay CGA/EGA to VGA convertors http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Video-Converter-P ... 27adbc143c today and tried it with connecting various inputs (PS2 component, SNES RGB SCART etc) and the picture quality is good for the price of the scaler. I believe these use the same chipset as the HDBOXPRO and the results are very good with the SLG in-line showing scanlines on a LCD. This scaler certainly gives a better picture than my previous "cheap" one. You have to mess around with the sync signal to allow it to accept a converted SCART RGB feed, but it will work with this kind of signal (especially useful for us EU retro console owners). Has a great benefit of accepting component, JAMMA and of course a SCART RGB signal (in the end).

Overall very impressed with the results.
Forgive me for being thick but how did you connect an RGB scart from say a SNES to this?
As suggested above, you need to use a sync stripper circuit and female SCART RGB socket. I have up to now used a SCART RGB to VGA cable called a syncblaster. This does the job, but retails for around £70 in the UK. In my experimentation, as I have a few people I know that want to make use of this CGA to VGA scaler on RGB SCART consoles, I ordered the parts to build the sync stripper circuit. My intention is that I will be building a unit this week (hopefully), that will add a SCART RGB input to the CGA to VGA scaler and strips the sync and amplifies it. The final solution will be a CGA to VGA scaler that takes component, SCART RGB, RGBHV and JAMMA in a single boxed solution. Parts only all in, it will cost around £70 to make. Add to this a SLG3000 and you have one great, reasonably priced solution that can work with various inputs.
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13017
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Fudoh »

For those not savy with the soldering iron a Scart to YUV transcoder plus a traditional HDBoxPro would probably be the better solution. Depending on what you pay for the sync stripper you might even end up cheaper with the above combo. The HDBoxPro also offers a the better 240p handling due to it's motion detection setting.... (the drop shadow test I asked you to do).
fagin
Posts: 1654
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:29 pm
Location: UK

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by fagin »

Fudoh wrote:For those not savy with the soldering iron a Scart to YUV transcoder plus a traditional HDBoxPro would probably be the better solution. Depending on what you pay for the sync stripper you might even end up cheaper with the above combo. The HDBoxPro also offers a the better 240p handling due to it's motion detection setting.... (the drop shadow test I asked you to do).
Good call... I enjoy having a play with stuff, so that is the real reason for me building it. The sync stripper parts are £5 a set, so cheap in reality.

I might have to bag myself a HDBOX Pro (or clone) and give your suggestion a bash though. 8)
User avatar
trunk
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:02 am

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by trunk »

Fudoh wrote:For those not savy with the soldering iron a Scart to YUV transcoder plus a traditional HDBoxPro would probably be the better solution. Depending on what you pay for the sync stripper you might even end up cheaper with the above combo. The HDBoxPro also offers a the better 240p handling due to it's motion detection setting.... (the drop shadow test I asked you to do).
I was thinking about this so I picked up a cheap one on ebay...Model CVS-287

I checked the receipt in my email and saw that I did this about 16 minutes before you posted :lol:

Now of course the deal with CVS-287 model being cheap hopefully the quality won't be too bad. Sure it won't be as good as a Kramer FC-14 but that thing costs more too.

Once I get the unit I'm going to compare xrgb-3 vs CVS-287+HD Box Pro+SLG3000, this is a more interesting path to me than using the hd fury. If it works out well that would be a decent price difference since my xrgb was ~$425 and the 3 above add up to ~$190.

edited: due to long ebay link
Current Setup:

720P------------------------v
240P->XRGB-3->Edge->4x2 matrix->DLP HDTV
480i/P->YPbPrselect-^ . . ^ . . V-->hdmi2vga->Super Emotia->Tate CRT SDTV
PC->vga2hdmi-------------^
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13017
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Fudoh »

Seriously, somebody should buy some stock of Genesis/Sage FLI-2200 or FLI-2300 processors and just build a cigarette box-sized linedoubler with RGB and component inputs and VGA output. The chips are still easily available and should be down to a few US$ per piece by now..... There no need for any OSD or settings other than an input switch. I bet they could be offered to a price equal to what a transcoder plus a HDBoxPro costs right now.
User avatar
Rossyra
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:08 pm

Re: New (upcoming) Scanline generator SLG3000

Post by Rossyra »

Not sure it will measure up to a syncblaster, but I ordered one of these:

http://www.blueunplugged.com/Scart-15-VGA-Cable-2M.aspx

It has a built in sync stripper and amp, it's quite a lot cheaper than a Syncblaster too

I'll report back when it arrives
Post Reply