6th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

[nimitz]

Well the complaint must have some validity, at least in the eyes of Treasure, don't you think?

Well, Treasure tried to make the series appeal to a wider audience with Gradius V and they definitely got that part right.

I don't think the checkpoints are related to Salamander 2's overall quality. Salamander (AC) doesn't have checkpoint and it was an improvement over Gradius in every way possible (except Gradius bar absence).

I have to disagree about Salamander(AC), the vertical parts don't feel very good, the game is heavier on memorization, the power ups are not very intuitive and so on...(Still a great game).

I like the small hitbox in Dodonpachi, and hate the checkpoints in Gradius games, so this analogy doesn't make any sense to me at all.

The point was, those games are designed around these apects you cannot simply remove that without altering the very essence of the game. Dodonpachi would simply not be Dodonpachi without the small hitbox(same with the checkpoints in early Gradiuses).

I like it when Kyukyoku Tiger sends me back far enough to pick up a powerup. Very helpful when you die at a boss.

I guess that wasn't clear enough.

I meant,

Salamander 2 has no checkpoints and ALSO the game is designed to make it much easier to recover from a death compared to a Gradius

[Ed Oscuro]

I like it when Kyukyoku Tiger sends me back far enough to pick up a powerup. Very helpful when you die at a boss.

I guess that wasn't clear enough.

Likewise I should've quoted your original post ("complaining about Gradius checkpoints is like complaining about DDP's hitbox"). There are designs that are liked, and designs that aren't.

[GaijinPunch]

Likewise I should've quoted your original post ("complaining about Gradius checkpoints is like complaining about DDP's hitbox"). There are designs that are liked, and designs that aren't.

Designs that are good, and designs that flat out sock huge cock, in this case.

[Turrican]

Salamander 2 has no checkpoints and makes it much easier to recover from a death.

I like it when Kyukyoku Tiger sends me back far enough to pick up a powerup. Very helpful when you die at a boss.

So that's why you voted for Kyukyoku Tiger instead of Twin Cobra? From my admittedly limited knowledge of the games (I bought the shooting pack recently) I definitely enjoyed Twin Cobra better...

Designs that are good, and designs that flat out sock huge cock, in this case.

I don't think checkpoints are always bad - it depends on how well they are implemented. So every game is a case on its own - perhaps even every stage.

[jpj]

pulstar is an example of intelligent checkpoints. perfectly possible to continue regardless of a death at any point of the game and believe me, i would know

[PROMETHEUS]

pulstar is an example of intelligent checkpoints. perfectly possible to continue regardless of a death at any point of the game 8) and believe me, i would know :oops:

I think they're all possible to recover from if you've memorized the precise instruction set to follow from each.

[Ed Oscuro]

Salamander 2 has no checkpoints and makes it much easier to recover from a death.

I like it when Kyukyoku Tiger sends me back far enough to pick up a powerup. Very helpful when you die at a boss.

So that's why you voted for Kyukyoku Tiger instead of Twin Cobra? From my admittedly limited knowledge of the games (I bought the shooting pack recently) I definitely enjoyed Twin Cobra better...

Mills and Del (I think) disagree with me, but for me personally KT works better. That could change when I get to a later boss, of course.

[jpj]

pulstar is an example of intelligent checkpoints. perfectly possible to continue regardless of a death at any point of the game and believe me, i would know

I think they're all possible to recover from if you've memorized the precise instruction set to follow from each.

no some aren't designed very well and 1 death means gameover in the later levels pulstar is more the exception than the rule

[Ed Oscuro]

pulstar is an example of intelligent checkpoints. perfectly possible to continue regardless of a death at any point of the game 8) and believe me, i would know :oops:

I think they're all possible to recover from if you've memorized the precise instruction set to follow from each.

they're all = all of Pulstar's checkpoints, or most checkpoint games?

[jpj]

he means memoriser games in general. sheesh, don't you know anything about PRO ?

[jp]

I'm sorry, but you outright cannot beat Gradius if you die in the room before the final boss.

[JoshF]

I'm pretty sure I did that. Just don't collect more than one option (for speed) or else the rank will raise and you'll get the back shots from enemies which would indeed make it impossible.

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm surprised that DOJ is so popular, honestly. It's difficulty really takes the fun out of it.

I'm not saying it's not a good game, but to be so high up, i'm a little surprised.

For me, it didn't really do anything better than DDP, and it had better graphic design(by Jun), and was much more fun to play....Well, DOJ did have more than 3 songs, so i'll give it that. But other than that...

What am I missing?

s/m

[ForceDevice]

I'm surprised that DOJ is so popular, honestly. It's difficulty really takes the fun out of it.

I'm not saying it's not a good game, but to be so high up, i'm a little surprised.

For me, it didn't really do anything better than DDP, and it had better graphic design(by Jun), and was much more fun to play....Well, DOJ did have more than 3 songs, so i'll give it that. But other than that...

What am I missing?

It didn't have more than three "songs", it had five fantastic songs instead of the three worst pieces of crap ever. =/

Besides, it has better graphics, a better story, setting and characters. At least for me, that is way more important than anything gameplay-related, and even more when the two games look SO much alike. That's why DOJ is high on my list and I think DDP is kinda bleh.



Also, I have a strange love/hate relationship with the difficulty in DOJ. The later levels drive me insane (and why the FUCK is the third level harder than the fourth? >___>), but at the same time it makes me feel like I'm a really, REALLY good player, a feeling no other game can give me.

When I dodge a seemingly impossible bullet pattern in DOJ (which happens quite frequently, btw), I smile from ear to ear and think "hohoho, was THAT supposed to hit me? ". And then an even thicker pattern comes and BOOM, my happiness is gone. But it's fun. =D

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm surprised that DOJ is so popular, honestly. It's difficulty really takes the fun out of it.

I'm not saying it's not a good game, but to be so high up, i'm a little surprised.

For me, it didn't really do anything better than DDP, and it had better graphic design(by Jun), and was much more fun to play....Well, DOJ did have more than 3 songs, so i'll give it that. But other than that...

What am I missing?

It didn't have more than three "songs", it had five fantastic songs instead of the three worst pieces of crap ever. =/

Besides, it has better graphics, a better story, setting and characters. At least for me, that is way more important than anything gameplay-related, and even more when the two games look SO much alike. That's why DOJ is high on my list and I think DDP is kinda bleh.



Also, I have a strange love/hate relationship with the difficulty in DOJ. The later levels drive me insane (and why the FUCK is the third level harder than the fourth? >___>), but at the same time it makes me feel like I'm a really, REALLY good player, a feeling no other game can give me.

When I dodge a seemingly impossible bullet pattern in DOJ (which happens quite frequently, btw), I smile from ear to ear and think "hohoho, was THAT supposed to hit me? ". And then an even thicker pattern comes and BOOM, my happiness is gone. But it's fun. =D

I hear ya. But i'm gonna have to go with "better design>better graphics".

Joker Jun was the man. And DOJs designs seem like they just got some dude to copy the designs of DDP with little added to it, and a lot of life taken away. But that first stage does look nice. But whoa, generic looking bosses!

Ah well, what do I know...

s/m

[jp]

I'm pretty sure I did that. Just don't collect more than one option (for speed) or else the rank will raise and you'll get the back shots from enemies which would indeed make it impossible.

If memory serves me correctly, you don't get any power-ups in the room before the final boss. So if you die there, you HAVE to play the room with NO power-ups.

[Shatterhand]

I'm pretty sure I did that. Just don't collect more than one option (for speed) or else the rank will raise and you'll get the back shots from enemies which would indeed make it impossible.

If memory serves me correctly, you don't get any power-ups in the room before the final boss. So if you die there, you HAVE to play the room with NO power-ups.

what Gradius game are you guys talking about?

[doctorx0079]

I'm pretty sure I did that. Just don't collect more than one option (for speed) or else the rank will raise and you'll get the back shots from enemies which would indeed make it impossible.

If memory serves me correctly, you don't get any power-ups in the room before the final boss. So if you die there, you HAVE to play the room with NO power-ups.

what Gradius game are you guys talking about?

number 1

[Shatterhand]

If memory serves me correctly, you don't get any power-ups in the room before the final boss. So if you die there, you HAVE to play the room with NO power-ups.

what Gradius game are you guys talking about?

number 1

I am pretty sure I've died just before the last boss and recovered. Are you guys talking about the brain last boss? The one who doesn't even attack you?

Edit: To be quite honest... I think I've recovered from every single checkpoint on the 1st loop of Gradius. I am not a specialist on the game or anything, but I don't remember any spot where I actually could NEVER recover.

[jp]

I'm talking about the room with the walker or whatever RIGHT BEFORE the boss that doesn't attack you. You don't get ANY power-ups, so you move slower than anything on the screen, and the room is filled with shit shooting at you.


I got there once and lost all my lives. Never played Gradius again.

[JoshF]

The laser wall thingy? Just stay at the very top and pass behind it.

[Shatterhand]

I'm talking about the room with the walker or whatever RIGHT BEFORE the boss that doesn't attack you. You don't get ANY power-ups, so you move slower than anything on the screen, and the room is filled with shit shooting at you.


I got there once and lost all my lives. Never played Gradius again.

Yeah, I've recovered from this. Like JoshF said, it's stupidly easy when you know what to do.

[Limbrooke]

I'm pretty sure I did that. Just don't collect more than one option (for speed) or else the rank will raise and you'll get the back shots from enemies which would indeed make it impossible.

Same.

[Mortificator]

I have, too. One of the last checkpoints was really tough, though, the one a little before the lightning grid where swarms come at you from both sides, including Jumpers. *shudders*

It's quite a bit easier if you're playing Nemesis, since a group of capsule-carrying enemies is spawned each time you die to help you power-up.

Now Gradius II & III have some shitty checkpoints. The section in GII where the floor and ceiling break up, for example. I wouldn't be surprised if someone could recover there, but it's an inordinate spike in difficulty.

I don't hate checkpoints in games balanced around them. Gaiden does it right, so even though it often throws more diamond shit at you than GII, it's more fun.

[orange]

g2 and g3 checkpoints punch me in the face :<

[Turrican]

votes:

MX7, Ceph, professor ganson, BulletMagnet, nZero, Herr Schatten, captain ahar, ForceDevice, kozo, kengou, HardcoreOtaku, Rob, jp, Dale, LSU, budloc, Arvandor, Sonic R, Enhasa, Ed Oscuro, -Bridget-, Ganelon, Neo, evil_ash_xero, IlMrm, Turrican, henry dark, skykid, GaijinPunch, it290, Shion, Master O, Fenrir, PROMETHEUS, jpj, nimitz, bkk, PlasmaBlooD, DeSangre, mikwuyma, maco, Mortificator, RGC, rolins, The Coop, szycag, Bloodreign, Dandy J, bloodflowers, BrianC, cigsthecat, ayanami, DJ incompetent, Michaelm, Josh F, ratlhead, Shatterhand, NTSC-J, Kindgrind, Gameoverdude, Ridley, Marcel1cc, oxtsu, zaarock, louisg*, bVork, SteevTee, Zach Keene, Thunder Force, Lowemark, maxi, Diogenezcharias, Coffeejoerx, Asherdude, Acid King, Krooze L Roy, Limbrooke, sycada, Slateman, MA7, ROBOTRON, J^aws, Super Laydock, CIT, DEL, P_HAT, Tempest, sioq, Zebra Airforce, zhoul, Spadgy, Seattlexc.

[Ceph]

So, when can we expect the results?

[Herr Schatten]

So, when can we expect the results?

You need to have a little patience. Zach and I are working on it, but we can't start to tally the votes until we have made sure that all lists are complete and according to the rules. We also have to clear up all ambiguous votes.

To sum it up: It's done when it's done.

[DEL]

Shatterhand wrote;

Yeah, I've recovered from this. Like JoshF said, it's stupidly easy when you know what to do.

If you're talking about the very final checkpoint before Nemesis/Gradius 1's Brain, then you're better informed than me. Like jp says, I never found a way to survive once I died there.
Same goes for the arcade Gradius II Vulcan Venture at the crumbling walls bit.
tviks may have the methods though
Personally I found these two to be impossible to recover checkpoints.

Ed Oscuro wrote;

Mills and Del (I think) disagree with me, but for me personally KT works better. That could change when I get to a later boss, of course.

It was me and Mulletgeezer - Its the Stage 9 Boss recovery in KT that will change your mind in favour of Twin Cobra - trust me Chances are that you'll like KT and its checkpoints until you lose 9 or more lives at the Stage 9 Boss, or the Stage 19 Boss. Twin Cobra carries you on through, KT won't.

[Ed Oscuro]

Thanks for the recap, DEL

Oh yeah - learning the different shot change item times is a pain too.