Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Xan]

Luma for sync is good, with composite video the PSX tends to produce checkerboard artifacts on PVMs. As far as I know it's mainly the old models with analog controls and the 2950 that require clean sync, on most newer models you should be good to go.

[RocketKnight]

I've got a little trouble with my Sony KV-29X5D TV.

The degaussing at the beginning has become very loud. While in the past there was just a little 'click', there's now a loud 'whoosh'. Hope, that's not the beginning of the end for my CRT.

Anyone any suggestions?

[Einzelherz]

Hey folks, don't know if this is the best thread for the question, but I figured there were lots of CRT diehards around these parts so good enough.

I'm looking in to PVMs right now. I'm most likely to be playing PSX/PS2 games, and I've been using a Luma-for-sync SCART cable.

Would this cable work with one of the SCART -> BNC adapters floating around that is without a sync stripper? Are there PVMs that take composite video for sync but not luma for sync?

Link to the SCART/BNC adapter: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Female-RGB-Euro ... 1513666681

If you're only interested in PSX/PS2 the simplest route might be a component cable and a set of RCA to BNC adapters. Assuming you already have the component cable, it'd run about $10 last I checked for a bag of adapters.

And fwiw, I have this setup and using a GunCon breakout box I've compared it back and forth with pure RGB and I see no difference.

[FinalBaton]

Wellllll... Extron RGB interfaces are a beautiful thing, aren't they

Currently playing my PS2 Street Fighter Alpha Anthology in rock solid 240p on my crt

Same for SSF2 Turbo on Dreamcast. I am a happy man

Seriously that was a terrific purchase! It even adds a brightness knob to my setp (the NEC's brightness need to be changed via the OSM and you only get a bar without numeric values, wich is extremely inconvenient. you risk losing your ideal settings and stuff). This is a life saver, because there are a couple console wich are brighter than the rest and they need a slight brightness adjustment. Now it can be easily done.

Next purchase : a DVDO unit for deinteerlacing 480i to 480p, for games with hi-res graphics.
Now all interlaced games shall bow down before me!!!

[ryu]

Now all interlaced games shall bow down before me!!!

If your game is just a static screen, yes.

[FinalBaton]

Now all interlaced games shall bow down before me!!!

If your game is just a static screen, yes.

huh?

[ryu]

Now all interlaced games shall bow down before me!!!

If your game is just a static screen, yes.

huh?

Deinterlacing does by no means produce perfect results, unfortunately. The DVDO's game mode 2 produces a near 480p equivalent of a static 480i scene, but there's a lot of blurring going on in motion....

[FinalBaton]

Deinterlacing does by no means produce perfect results, unfortunately. The DVDO's game mode 2 produces a near 480p equivalent of a static 480i scene, but there's a lot of blurring going on in motion....

ah I see. good to know!

I assumed the DVDO would give a 480p image as stable as the Extron interface's 240p (really impressed by this last one btw)

[Fudoh]

ryu's refering the motion adaptive deinterlacing. Parts of the image with no or low motion are weaved (using lines from two frames). Parts of the image that are moving are interpolated instead using just lines from a single frame.... This all refers to 60fps material. If you got 30fps material you can do great tricks (like 2:2 cadence weaving on 60Hz signals).

[NormalFish]

Luma for sync is good, with composite video the PSX tends to produce checkerboard artifacts on PVMs. As far as I know it's mainly the old models with analog controls and the 2950 that require clean sync, on most newer models you should be good to go.

If you're only interested in PSX/PS2 the simplest route might be a component cable and a set of RCA to BNC adapters. Assuming you already have the component cable, it'd run about $10 last I checked for a bag of adapters.

And fwiw, I have this setup and using a GunCon breakout box I've compared it back and forth with pure RGB and I see no difference.

Thanks for the responses! Yeah, I've currently got 2 PS2s, one via component, one via scart. Component is well and good but my cable isn't the best and PS2's output could be nicer, so I mostly just use the one hooked up via scart. Might not be the most convenient but on my current set up with the framemeister, it's all well and good.

[ryu]

ryu's refering the motion adaptive deinterlacing. Parts of the image with no or low motion are weaved (using lines from two frames). Parts of the image that are moving are interpolated instead using just lines from a single frame.... This all refers to 60fps material. If you got 30fps material you can do great tricks (like 2:2 cadence weaving on 60Hz signals).

What kind of magic is that? Can you even figure out at how many FPS a console game runs?

Although I've once played around with the deineterlace options and did indeed find two settings that resulted in a picture with great motion detail. Problem was I had to switch these two options constantly after certain scene changes (like going into the game menu and back into the game). I'd like to be more specific, but I forgot what those options were called.

[Fudoh]

What kind of magic is that? Can you even figure out at how many FPS a console game runs?

as long as we're talking v-sync'ed games, it can only be either 30 or 60fps. 2:2 cadence movie modes are usually meant for PAL film material, but some processors allow you to apply this kind of deinterlacing to 60Hz material as well.

[bobrocks95]

I've got a little trouble with my Sony KV-29X5D TV.

The degaussing at the beginning has become very loud. While in the past there was just a little 'click', there's now a loud 'whoosh'. Hope, that's not the beginning of the end for my CRT.

Anyone any suggestions?

Thought someone would respond to this- mine have always been loud. I thought it was the degaussing circuit. There's a big woosh, 10 seconds or so of nothing, then a click and the screen turns on. If I turn it off and back on soon after the initial turn on it just does the click.

[chuckster]

I've got a little trouble with my Sony KV-29X5D TV.

The degaussing at the beginning has become very loud. While in the past there was just a little 'click', there's now a loud 'whoosh'. Hope, that's not the beginning of the end for my CRT.

Anyone any suggestions?

Thought someone would respond to this- mine have always been loud. I thought it was the degaussing circuit. There's a big woosh, 10 seconds or so of nothing, then a click and the screen turns on. If I turn it off and back on soon after the initial turn on it just does the click.

Of the 3 PVMs I have, the older they are, the quicker and quieter they are. My newest takes about 5 seconds to degauss after an initial click and pause for 2-3 seconds.

[Guspaz]

What kind of magic is that? Can you even figure out at how many FPS a console game runs?

as long as we're talking v-sync'ed games, it can only be either 30 or 60fps. 2:2 cadence movie modes are usually meant for PAL film material, but some processors allow you to apply this kind of deinterlacing to 60Hz material as well.

vsync doesn't require 30 or 60fps, it's just a limitation in framebuffer-based rendering if you only have two framebuffers (which is required for vsync). If you add an extra buffer, you can have a buffer to display, a buffer to wait for the next vsync, and a buffer to render to, and then you can have arbitrary vsync framerates, albeit with unsmooth motion.

All these limitations, though, are rendering limitations, and vsync itself doesn't place any restrictions on display framerate.

[Fudoh]

but that doesn't matter for an inverse 2:2 telecine on interlaced material. All that matters is wether you're in the 1-30fps area or in the 31-60fps area. You can do a 2:2 pulldown on the former, but not on the latter.

[RocketKnight]

Thanks for your replies, bobrocks95 and chuckster!

So it seems a loud degaussing process is not necessarily an indicator for a soon death. That's good news!

@chuckster: 3 PVMs?! I'd give my right arm to have 1 of these instead of my simple TV. Unfortunately, they seem to be offered more and more seldom, and the need of finding one in my area doesn't make it easier.

Apropos, what are the prospects of still getting a used PVM whose tube hasn't lost much of its original brightness and contrast so far? Do they have an OSD showing the current run-time?

[telemetry]

What kind of magic is that? Can you even figure out at how many FPS a console game runs?

as long as we're talking v-sync'ed games, it can only be either 30 or 60fps. 2:2 cadence movie modes are usually meant for PAL film material, but some processors allow you to apply this kind of deinterlacing to 60Hz material as well.

I wasn't aware there was a way to set this with the DVDO's. Is this a feature specific to the Edge?

[Fudoh]

I wasn't aware there was a way to set this with the DVDO's. Is this a feature specific to the Edge?

available on the ABT102 equipped units (Vp20/30) and the VP50 and 50Pro. I think it was removed again on the Edge.

[chuckster]

Thanks for your replies, bobrocks95 and chuckster!

So it seems a loud degaussing process is not necessarily an indicator for a soon death. That's good news!

@chuckster: 3 PVMs?! I'd give my right arm to have 1 of these instead of my simple TV. Unfortunately, they seem to be offered more and more seldom, and the need of finding one in my area doesn't make it easier.

Apropos, what are the prospects of still getting a used PVM whose tube hasn't lost much of its original brightness and contrast so far? Do they have an OSD showing the current run-time?

I know, I got lucky with a local TV station to get two after I caved and bought one online for $160 last summer. I don't regret it, the PVMs are worth it, but not worth the $300+ totals you seem them for usually.

I think it was mentioned before but PVMs don't have the runtime in the OSD. At least mine don't. A more recent L5 may, but I doubt it. If you open up the back, the tube may have a "serviced on" sticker though, especially if it's older or if it was refurbished.

[Ed Oscuro]

No PVMs have an hours count.

[telemetry]

I wasn't aware there was a way to set this with the DVDO's. Is this a feature specific to the Edge?

available on the ABT102 equipped units (Vp20/30) and the VP50 and 50Pro. I think it was removed again on the Edge.

As an aside, almost seems like a cheaper refurb VP50 (non-Pro) + OSSC would be more cost-effective for 240, 480i, 480p than any of (XRGB-3 + Edge), Framemeister, or VP50 Pro...good 240p handling and a good 480i deinterlacing solution, with upscaling for the OSSC.

[Fudoh]

almost seems like a cheaper refurb VP50 (non-Pro) + OSSC would be more cost-effective

absolutely

[atheistgod1999]

Does anyone know how good Japanese consumer-grade CRT TVs were? People always say North American ones suck and European ones are great, but what about Japanese ones? Also, did they have RGB?

[bobrocks95]

Does anyone know how good Japanese consumer-grade CRT TVs were? People always say North American ones suck and European ones are great, but what about Japanese ones? Also, did they have RGB?

I don't think a lack of an RGB input made North American consumer CRTs suck. We got most of the same models afaik- Sony sets are considered the best and we got the best consumer set Sony made...

Japanese sets likely had JP21 connectors. I guess D-Terminal later on?

[amaradona]

Does anyone know how good Japanese consumer-grade CRT TVs were? People always say North American ones suck and European ones are great, but what about Japanese ones? Also, did they have RGB?

I don't think a lack of an RGB input made North American consumer CRTs suck. We got most of the same models afaik- Sony sets are considered the best and we got the best consumer set Sony made...

Japanese sets likely had JP21 connectors. I guess D-Terminal later on?

Some of the japanese sony sets have also the playstation connectors.

[FinalBaton]

I don't think a lack of an RGB input made North American consumer CRTs suck. We got most of the same models afaik- Sony sets are considered the best and we got the best consumer set Sony made...

Japanese sets likely had JP21 connectors. I guess D-Terminal later on?

This is how I see it also

A good RGB - YPbPr transcoder or an RGB mod and you're good to go.

[LDigital]

So I managed to pick up a bvm 20f1e

The picture is as sharp as they say and after spending a lot of time setting the geometry I am 95% happy with the picture I am getting apart from one thing that I cant seem to smooth out

On the 240p suite test grid pattern on the third column of blocks it squeezes in by about 1mm on screen around this column only. This is really noticeable to me on side scrollers as the background seems to compress and decompress again slightly as it passes this part of the screen. It's really irritating and this is exactly the same thing my b&o did which made me sell it off. After hearing all the hype on the bvm I am a little bit gutted it has almost the exact same problem in the same place as my old set.

Is this something that can be fixed or am I going to have to keep flipping screens to get one without geometry issues? Any help appreciated thankd

[atheistgod1999]

So I managed to pick up a bvm 20f1e

The picture is as sharp as they say and after spending a lot of time setting the geometry I am 95% happy with the picture I am getting apart from one thing that I cant seem to smooth out

On the 240p suite test grid pattern on the third column of blocks it squeezes in by about 1mm on screen around this column only. This is really noticeable to me on side scrollers as the background seems to compress and decompress again slightly as it passes this part of the screen. It's really irritating and this is exactly the same thing my b&o did which made me sell it off. After hearing all the hype on the bvm I am a little bit gutted it has almost the exact same problem in the same place as my old set.

Is this something that can be fixed or am I going to have to keep flipping screens to get one without geometry issues? Any help appreciated thankd

I got the same exact problem on my 20F1U. Looking at other's videos, I think this is just a thing with Sony monitors.

Yesterday I scored a 20" 2003 600-Line S-Video Panasonic consumer set (it was just lying on the sidewalk a block from my house) with dead-on convergence and geometry, even at the very edges and corners. In fact, it has less distortion than my BVM. I think later Trinitrons were just garbage in general.

[vasya228]

Hello!
Can you say which the differences between these models?

1. PVM-20M2U vs PVM-20M2E
2. PVM-20M2U vs PVM-20M4U
3. PVM-20M2U vs PVM-20M2MDU
4. OEV-203 vs PVM-20M2MDU or OEV-203 vs PVM-20M2U
5. PVM-20L2 vs PVM-20L4
6. PVM-20L4 vs PVM-20L5
7. PVM-20L5 is minimum 480p/480i ? no 240p ?
8. P22 vs SMPTE C vs EBU
9. 20-inch Trinitron vs 20-inch HR Trinitron
10 NTSC vs NTSC 4.43
11 Or there is no differences between: PVM-20Mxxx PVM-20Lx ?