Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Xyga]

kamiboy: There is certainly a romantic shimmer around CRTs, and most of them are based on what the very best pro CRTs were capable of. Those doesn't have much in common with your average Magnavox set sold in the 80s. And to be honest, the CRT references hasn't really aged that well as some people think. They've pretty much been outperformed by modern equipment (both on consumer and professional levels) and there are simply too many issues with the tubes for them to be optimal in most ways.

If 20 year old F1 cars were available for free most people who got them would probably think that their old Nissan Micra is a piece of shit afterwards but it still wouldn't make any sense at all since neither of them were ever produced to compete against each other.

I can only speak for myself. If you give me a choice between a run of the mill consumer CRT and the very best none CRT based alternative I'll choose the CRT in a parsec. Hell, I'd pick a shitty CRT even, as long as it has RGB input capability.

Unlike some here my love of the CRT aesthetic does not start and end with pro CRT's either, mainly because as long as it is a CRT I am not so hard to please. Bad geometry does not bother me one bit.

I do have a BVM, and in the past have had a long range of different CRT's, but I play games currently on a B&O, a CRT that I imagine will leave a lot to be desired for most people, but to me it is still so much superior to low res gaming on an LCD that it is not even funny. Yes, I did once try the Framemeister mostly out of curiosity, and had an XRGB2+ also at one time.

My conclusion was to stick with using LCD's for what they excel at, HD movies and games. Fixed panel displays only shine in my eyes when the source native resolution matches the panel native resolution. The further the two diverge the further the results creep into dog shit territory.

Yeah PVM's/BVM's...Europeans mainly still have access to many very nice rgb consumer sets, several weren't shit by any standards and already superior to any flat panel setup. Never forget that people and never forget Sony broadcast crt's weren't the only thing in history, we've said it many times but no system home or arcade was running on displays as sharp as some BVM's for mentioning the most extreme.
It's always good to remind so potential beginners/newcomers who read us would be aware that getting a good crt isn't exclusively about hunting Sony Holy Grails.

Repeating myself again but I've gamed on pre-digital end of 80's/early 90's shadow mask tubes in full analogue built that blew me away, and even later sets from the 2nd half ot the 90's to early 2000's looked awesome even next to expensive Trinitrons.
Just try/buy what you find in good condition, not limiting yourselves to Sony, and you're up for pleasing surprises.

Regarding LCD's and other flat panels I've noticed we only rarely mention one of their greatest advantages and reason to use: it's the damn huge size combined with little bulk.
From the couch I'll tell it honestly, if the flat panel is decent enough in terms of performance and the signal handled properly; I don't mind the inferior quality as much as when I'm sitting close.

[Guspaz]

CRTs don't even really have a native resolution, so saying that LCDs only work well at their native resolution doesn't quite make sense: on a high resolution LCD, scaling looks fine. On a very high resolution display, it's not all that different from how a CRT is going to look with different resolutions.

Do G-Sync/FreeSync displays sync to non-standard refresh rates by default? Like, do they just update whenever a sync pulse arrives? I ask because it would seem that the non-standard refresh rates of many older consoles causes issues with modern displays that only want to sync at 60Hz, so you get tearing or duplicated/dropped frames. If you could just tell the display to refresh at whatever weird non-standard refresh rate...

[Xyga]

CRTs don't even really have a native resolution, so saying that LCDs only work well at their native resolution doesn't quite make sense

Who's saying that ?

On a high resolution LCD, scaling looks fine. On a very high resolution display, it's not all that different from how a CRT is going to look with different resolutions.

Yes but that's a matter of scaling and therefore dependent on the device or software handling it.

[kamiboy]

Scaling is a dirty word to my ears.

[Guspaz]

Who's saying that ?

Kamiboy was.

CRTs have a fixed array of RGB elements. LCDs/Plasma/OLEDs/etc have a fixed array of RGB elements. Except in the case of the native resolution of the digital display, both CRTs and LCDs are scaling. They're just going about it in a different fashion. They are taking an input signal that doesn't correspond to the exact number of RGB elements on the screen, and they're mapping it.

The CRT's electron beam is doing that for you, smearing individual pixels over multiple subpixels. LCD scaling tends to be more straight forward (bilinear?), but there is no theoretical reason that you couldn't do LCD scaling in a way that simulates the electron beam. There are software implementations of that, a custom display controller could do it in hardware.

[Xyga]

I wanted to think the same some time ago, but IMHO crt simulation is still very limited by the natural properties of lcd's such as uniform backlighting brightness. Getting closer would require at least oleds superior to 4K and faster than 60Hz refresh, also brighter than the current technology, then even the most advanced shader mashups today don't do what you say, they're too static in the end and that's not enough, new formulas should be invented.
Now a hardware alternative sounds crazy, I don't imagine anyone creating that this century. ^^

[Guspaz]

FPGAs can do 1080p, but IIRC FPGA clockrates don't go high enough to generate 4K signals, at least in affordable FPGAs.

I don't think you really need to go that far, though: we're talking about displaying 240p signals on a 1080p display. Something like the CRT simulation filter of the UltraHDMI on an LCD display with very low latency is going to look pretty good, quite likely good enough. What would be interesting is an external scaler (240p -> 1080p) that has enough extra power to do that sort of filtering. Marq's device is great, but doesn't have the horsepower for that.

Personally, while I do find the appearance of a good CRT pleasing, the biggest reasons I like using my PVM are because I don't need fancy scalers to get a 240p signal into it, and it has zero latency. If I had a scaler that could do what the UltraHDMI does, and if I had an LCD monitor with essentially zero latency, then I think I'd be happy with that too.

[Xyga]

Ah ok. I think I am a more demanding person than you are in that domain actually. I mean I think I've pushed CRT-Royale as far is it can go before stepping into shadow mask simulation at really high resolutions, and am still underwhelmed because it doesn't feel 'alive' like genuine electron-motivated phosphors.
I haven't tried it on 4K nor oled yet (missed the opportunity) but I am nevertheless convinced that it still won't be enough as there isn't any real control of spacial brightness intensity for each spot or local groups of spots/interaction. For that higher resolution and brighter displays along with more sophisticated software will have to exist.
Current shader and scaler solutions on 1080p, 1200p, 1440p are interesting palliatives to bad built-in scalers and poor resampling filters, but in no way capable of worthy simulations (again IMHO and for my level of exigence).

In fact, until something really great and relatively affordable comes out, I have decided to become an advocate of simpler solutions.
Always clean/right and customizable integer scaling, combined with highly customizable smoothing would be better for most existing displays and game sources.
That and low lag, controlled speed and fluidity, would be great already if it wasn't so rare or stupidly tricky to achieve for irritating reasons. But at the difference of crt simulation it is very well manageable with current displays, scalers and computers. A more 'democratic' stance if you want, that I want to see as a 'good universal and accessible' alternative that makes sense if you think about what most people use as displays today.
In my eyes we've stepped into wanting crt simulation even before seeing the basics commonly done right.

[kamiboy]

But CRT's don't in fact have a fixed native resolution. We could wank around technical minutiae as to why, or why not, but why bother? Why indeed when I can just use my two eyeballs here to confirm that this BVM of mine can effortlessly display any signal from 240p all the way up to 1080i, with splendour, while this 1080p LCD makes anything below 720p look like utter dogshit.

Resolution is not a problem, in fact the higher the resolution an LCD has the worse it will be at displaying lower resolution content due to the added scaling. CRT's excel at their job becaus they do not need to try to guess visual information that is not there.

As for recreating the feel of a CRT, well unlike CPU's which can be faithfully emulated in the digital realm, the emulation of a CRT has a physical component attached, and current display technologies simply lack the physical properties to be up to the task.

We could once again wank around trying to discuss whether I am right or not, but I shan't bother until someone plops down an LCD in front of me displaying a 240p source that I cannot tell apart from a CRT next to it. Proof is in the pooding as they say, and so far all the none CRT camp has presented me for has been dogshit.

[kel]

For me the difference between CRT and a fixed pixel display like LCD/LED and even plasma to a certain extent is like the difference between a painting and a mosaic. No matter how small the pieces are in a mosaic or how far away you view it from there's still something not quite right about it. Although a mosaic still does look nice in its own right it doesn't quite beat a painting. Although in all fairness I know nothing about art, it's just the best analogy that I could think of .

[Ed Oscuro]

But CRTs do have a relevant measurement - the old "dot pitch" measurement which you saw uselessly trotted out in every PC monitor ad from the '90s and well into the '00s, just as "response time" is pushed out today. As we get higher DPI in modern monitors, this issue and the screen door effect will subside.

The main thing in favor of CRTs is that scaling is truly a native process, lagfree and giving good sharp results so long as the resolution was good enough. There were, after all, quite a few monitors whose resolution spec wasn't quite good enough to deal well with various content types.

As for the earlier pro / consumer model discussion, it's important to highlight that the actual technology matters. I could be the best-bred and trained dog ever (typing on the internet even), but a dog is still a dog. LCD just isn't going to compete with CRT in certain areas, but neither is any LCD going to compete with a good OLED - it's just when getting into certain specifications that matter above all, like price, resolution, framerate support and sync type, that you have to stick with LCD because OLED choices simply aren't there yet, no matter what you're looking at.

I will say that after reviewing the horrendous amounts of backlight glow in a new IPS panel that I am more than ready for OLED.

[Guspaz]

Are you rich? Because that dream would only seem to be $5K USD and a short wait away

[nissling]

I can only speak for myself. If you give me a choice between a run of the mill consumer CRT and the very best none CRT based alternative I'll choose the CRT in a parsec. Hell, I'd pick a shitty CRT even, as long as it has RGB input capability.

I've had several CRTs and most of them were pretty bad. Other than the pro monitors the only one I'd consider decent was a 26" Trinitron set from circa 2000.

Unlike some here my love of the CRT aesthetic does not start and end with pro CRT's either, mainly because as long as it is a CRT I am not so hard to please. Bad geometry does not bother me one bit.

I'm impossible to please and there is no such thing as a perfect display. CRTs are very far from ideal (geometry, convergence, resolution, ANSI contrast, shadow mask, after-burning phosphor, small picture size etc) and even as the owner of probably the best HDCRT ever made I'm still not completely satisfied although it does indeed impress me in many aspects.

I do have a BVM, and in the past have had a long range of different CRT's, but I play games currently on a B&O, a CRT that I imagine will leave a lot to be desired for most people, but to me it is still so much superior to low res gaming on an LCD that it is not even funny. Yes, I did once try the Framemeister mostly out of curiosity, and had an XRGB2+ also at one time.

B&O MX (mainly rebadged Philips CRTs) doesn't impress me very much. Those are mainly design products and picture certainly isn't priority one.

Regarding resolution, CRTs do in fact have native resolutions. But unlike a modern display that is made up of discreet matrix it depends on various other factors. Focus, shadow mask, size, actual tube etc. all play a part of the final results when it comes to the resolution. Just keeping in mind that even the absolute best CRTs have a shadow mask makes it obvious that even those are clearly limited by the technology itself.

And in conclusions, CRTs do indeed have native resolutions but not necessarily just a single one, they can have several. I'm not saying that I have anything against CRTs but I cannot sympathize with those who think it's the gift from God.

[FinalBaton]

I've got myself several LCDs and plasma screens and with enough tweaking the picture is actually so good that I honestly find those setups more sane in many ways than getting a reference monitor. Of course we now have the alternative to get ourselves BVMs for a couple of hundred dollars so they are an option but comparing them right away is not just unfair but is also a completely different subject.

Consumer products are always meant to bring net revenue to the manufacturer and if it doesn't it's considered a failure. A professional monitor is more like measurement tool, one that represents the signal with as few differences to the source as possible. In other words you should be able to rely on the results from a reference monitor with no doubts whatsoever so you know what you're doing, but in the home of a consumer there's really no need for such purism.

And like I said, it even makes more sense when you keep the MSRP in mind. My Sony HDM-3830 was released in 1989 with a retail of $70,000 which today equals to nearly $130,000. Comparing that to a 50" LCD at $600 along with an XRGB-Mini is just pathetic. The BVM-E250A, one of the finest OLED monitors of today, has a retail price of $26,000 and that's what I would like to compare my CRTs against. Hell, I'd love to see what the new BVMs are capable of along with a Framemeister.

And honestly, does anyone here really miss anything from their old 26" Magnavox CRT? Other than the low amount of motion lag in bright scenes I certainly don't.

*Sigh*
I know all this. Of course the broadcast stuff is better than the consumer stuff. But that's not the point.

It's about comparing what people can actually get their hands on. You know lots of people who have PVM and BVM OLEDs? Because I sure as hell don't!

[Taiyaki]

I would respectfully argue that consumer crt's actually give a more authentic image for retro games. I've tried PVM and BVM (I've even had 2 BVM's at one point) and they are awesome pieces of hardware especially in terms of how ahead of their time they were, but they don't accurately reflect the look these classic consoles had on the tv sets we all grew up on. Instead they look much closer to current high end lcd's with emulated scanlines. At least that's how I felt.

[PWGuy]

Can anyone help me diagnose a couple of issues with my PVM-14M2U?

1) The extreme wavy top portion of the screen
2) The pink/purple perimeter around objects on the screen (it's not nearly as pink as the screenshot depicts)

Help! I think I got a bad unit - I got it free, so no loss but thought I'd see if it's much effort to "fix"

[Skips]

If the console is connected via RGB make sure you have the monitor set to external sync (should be a button on the front) and the input set to RGB and not component.

If you are running S-Video or Composite make sure the external sync button is not lit up. If it is turn it off.

[PWGuy]

If the console is connected via RGB make sure you have the monitor set to external sync (should be a button on the front) and the input set to RGB and not component.

If you are running S-Video or Composite make sure the external sync button is not lit up. If it is turn it off.

Ok - it's connected with an RCA to S-Video cable from the front loader NES. It's a brand new, shielded cable but I can't say it couldn't be the culprit. Im waiting on a BNC to RCA adapter to come in the mail so I can connect via direct composite.

Thanks for suggestions already-I will double check EXT SYNC button tonight!

[bobrocks95]

Wait, you're connecting a composite signal through an S-Video connector? Is this something a PVM can do that's special, or are you feeding video and color data through a single luma pin?

[Guspaz]

I wouldn't expect it to work properly on a PVM either. Those cables are, AFAIK, intended to connect an s-video output to a composite input, not the other way around. I'm not surprised that you get a messed up image trying to use it backwards: AFAIK it would just route composite video to both the luma and chroma pins of the s-video connector...

[PWGuy]

I wouldn't expect it to work properly on a PVM either. Those cables are, AFAIK, intended to connect an s-video output to a composite input, not the other way around. I'm not surprised that you get a messed up image trying to use it backwards: AFAIK it would just route composite video to both the luma and chroma pins of the s-video connector...

Ok...but it worked amazingly on my old Sony KV-32S40 consumer trinitron many, many years ago..

[Guspaz]

I suppose how well it's handled depends entirely on the TV.

[atheistgod1999]

I got a question: Why's the BVM-20F1U supposed to be the best RGB monitor? It's not even multisync!

[Fudoh]

none of the broadcast monitors are real multi-sync displays. Most just sync within narrow areas around the usual broadcast video timings.

Which RGB monitor is the best for you will always depend on yours needs, your sources and your preferences in terms of picture looks. What makes Sony's BVM series outstanding for me are the extensive geometry and convergence calibration options that lower end monitors simply don't offer along with the geometry and convergence quality these sets offer out of the box.

[KatKya]

Pretty sure they were just commenting on that Tested article that referenced you and referred to the 20F1U as the best you could ask for.

[atheistgod1999]

Pretty sure they were just commenting on that Tested article that referenced you and referred to the 20F1U as the best you could ask for.

Yeah, that's where I learned about the world of RGB monitors.

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

Congrats man.. That is where I learned about RGB also.. I am still a newbie.. But I have tried a few monitors now and yes it boils down to personal taste and eyesight..The referenced artcle should be updated or something not to confuse newbies like me. I think that there should be a sticky on this site with the monitors models, price range that you should pay and the overall look and feel of them.. Maybe the sticky will have members in the area that would be willing give the newbies a test drive. I can be added to the list. But in general, I only preferred the mentioned monitor in the article for NES.. For the rest of the systems the PVM with less lines are better to my eyes but for the best monitor, a newbie opinion the 29" NEC or Mitsubishi are wayyyyy better than the PVM or BVM.

Pretty sure they were just commenting on that Tested article that referenced you and referred to the 20F1U as the best you could ask for.

Yeah, that's where I learned about the world of RGB monitors.

[PWGuy]

If the console is connected via RGB make sure you have the monitor set to external sync (should be a button on the front) and the input set to RGB and not component.

If you are running S-Video or Composite make sure the external sync button is not lit up. If it is turn it off.

Ok - it's connected with an RCA to S-Video cable from the front loader NES. It's a brand new, shielded cable but I can't say it couldn't be the culprit. Im waiting on a BNC to RCA adapter to come in the mail so I can connect via direct composite.

Thanks for suggestions already-I will double check EXT SYNC button tonight!

Ok so Ext sync is not enabled via s-video - when it is, the screen jumps endlessly.

I'm waiting for my RCA to BNC adapter so I can properly connect composite as a start.

[FinalBaton]

the 29" NEC

Damnnnn those things are fun to game on.
They have their quirks, but they're totally awesome.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure that the BVMs are technically superior (phonedorks vids shows that they are a good cut above when it comes to color accuracy).
But like you said, each individual's preferences will come into play when it comes to their favorite display for retro games.

[PWGuy]

If the console is connected via RGB make sure you have the monitor set to external sync (should be a button on the front) and the input set to RGB and not component.

If you are running S-Video or Composite make sure the external sync button is not lit up. If it is turn it off.

Ok - it's connected with an RCA to S-Video cable from the front loader NES. It's a brand new, shielded cable but I can't say it couldn't be the culprit. Im waiting on a BNC to RCA adapter to come in the mail so I can connect via direct composite.

Thanks for suggestions already-I will double check EXT SYNC button tonight!

Ok so Ext sync is not enabled via s-video - when it is, the screen jumps endlessly.

I'm waiting for my RCA to BNC adapter so I can properly connect composite as a start.

That was it - used an RCA to BNC adapter today for composite and all is well. Thanks all

One more question: I have a SNES and want to connect RGB/SCART. How is the SNES RGB/SCART cable from RCA that does NOT offer isolated audio cables? Is there that much noise interfering in the video signal from the audio if I go with the "all in one" that she offers? Ideally I would like a single SCART to BNC cable connected to the PVM and I can simply connect/disconnect the SNES or Genesis as desired. Thoughts on the noise point? Apologies this is off topic a bit - happy to ask elsewhere if need be.