Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[stellarola]

Thoughts on the Sony PVM-20M2MDU?
I have a 2950Q now and interested in the possible sharper image this could provide. Seller asking $300, which I won't pay, but hoping to get it maybe for $200.
Interested about any thoughts about the two against each other.

I've got a 20M2MDU & it's great but a 2950Q is probably my ideal monitor, would love to find one. I'd say even $200 is a very high price. They're both 600 lines so if you're after something sharper maybe look at one of the 800 lines+ models?

I owned two 2950Q monitors. Picture on them was just not good when compared to newer, smaller PVMs (2000 era). Both had mediocre screen geometry. Unless you have one with known low hours, don't waste your time.

[accaris]

Has anyone heard or seen this one: 46" NEC Multisync (P461)? It looks giant, but maybe that equals quality in this case. It has crazy amts of inputs and seeming can be had
pretty cheap. I know it's out there, but just curious. Interested in any 46" recommendations as well.

Thanks for the thoughts!

Haven't heard of the P461, but I have seen the NEC Multeos M40 and M46, which both had a Faroudja 10-bit chip in them and RGBHV inputs. This thing was an absolute beast. Someone around me had one for sale for $100 and I'm kicking myself for not taking the 2 hour drive to get it. Be on the lookout for any NEC Multeos, imo.

[texaspowtapa]

why this crt hobby is soo addicting?, i don't understand since 2013 i've been seeing these forum's who have threads about it, almost every week

[juji82]

Just arrived! It is the BVM-D32E1WU. The seller forgot to ship the BKM-10R tho...

[nissling]

Lovely! Want to trade? I've got an HDM-3830, just come over to Stockholm with your BVM and we'll swap.

[juji82]

lol

[sixbynine]

Yay, a D32 bro

[deltaspirit]

Taking photos can be difficult of monitors but with persistence you can end up with some great looking shots.

Here are some shots of the 14m2e running an NESRGB famicom.
snip

And this is the JVC bm-h2000pn-k

snip

All the JVC broadcast monitors seem to have excellent geometry, other than an slight tilt issue that my 19" JVC has (possible ot fix by rotating the yoke) the geometry is nearly perfect


I picked up a mitsubishi am-3501r not long ago

33.5" viewable, 600 lines and multisync
cooled by 5 fans and nearly the entire inside of the chassis has what looks looks like a copper film.

[tacoguy64]

Anyone have a spare Panasonic BT-YA702P or JVC IF-C01COMG RGB/Component input card? Please shoot me a PM.

Thanks

there was one recently on ebay going for $150 but the seller has taken it down.
i contacted the guy but we werent able to come to an agreement.
these input cards are not only hard to find but when you do find them then they can be expensive.

I've since found this out. I bought a JVC monitor on eBay with the RGB input card. However, once I received the monitor, someone swapped out the RGB card with an SDI one. So I'm hoping the seller can find it, because I can't find one online at all....

I really don't wanna send back a CRT...fuuuuuuuu

Yeah, i would suggest just keeping an active eye out for both input cards. They rarely do come up, last year i remember seeing only about 3 from ebay and i was too late for all of them. But since I already had a bunch of other crt monitors I didn't really prioritize the device. But I am very curious how my refurbished monitor from 2007 will perform.

why this crt hobby is soo addicting?, i don't understand since 2013 i've been seeing these forum's who have threads about it, almost every week

I think its the whole rediscovery thing. Most people back then didn't have access to good crt monitors. And now that we do it's like a new experience all over again. I'm on my 5th monitor and I only started last year!

Just arrived! It is the BVM-D32E1WU. The seller forgot to ship the BKM-10R tho...

Very nice!
I wanna see more pics after you get the bkm.

[FinalBaton]

I think its the whole rediscovery thing. Most people back then didn't have access to good crt monitors. And now that we do it's like a new experience all over again. I'm on my 5th monitor and I only started last year!

yep.
back when I was originally gaming on a crt, it was on a ho-hum consumer set. And it was over composite! (this last part won't apply to european and japanese gamers though)

Needless to say, it is quite exhilarating to see console gaming in RGB on a professional RGB monitor It beats the framemeister + lcd combo everyday of the week and twice on sunday. IMO.

There's just something about the glow of a crt. Especially when it's this tight

[nissling]

I would never compare a professional CRT monitor against the XRGB-Mini running to your regular LCD. It should only be compared to a modern monitor in the same league. A brand new 24" BVM (LCD or OLED) is still as expensive as a car and far superior to a consumer TV. It's kind of like comparing a perfect apple to a rotten pear if you even bring consumer products to discussion when the actual subject is professional equipment.

[juji82]

Very nice!
I wanna see more pics after you get the bkm.

Will go back to countryside by the end of this month, expect updates by then!

[FinalBaton]

I would never compare a professional CRT monitor against the XRGB-Mini running to your regular LCD. It should only be compared to a modern monitor in the same league. A brand new 24" BVM (LCD or OLED) is still as expensive as a car and far superior to a consumer TV. It's kind of like comparing a perfect apple to a rotten pear if you even bring consumer products to discussion when the actual subject is professional equipment.

a lot of people online state that they are fulfilled by the xrgb + consumer lcd combo for their retro gaming. That's why I compared the two and that's why it is a relevant comparison

[arcade-stg]

What would be nice, and I bet we see in the future, is those BVM LCD compared to regular LCD for video gaming.

[Xyga]

I don't see what's so special with those broadcast lcd's and oled for us.
Lots of the features included in the current PVM/BVM aren't relevant for gaming, you're paying the many advanced processing, compatibility, and calibration all stuffed in with sturdy parts that are essentially useful to studio professionals (you also pay huge servicing/compensation inflated prices fuckery because manufacturers know how to exploit the tax deduction system in many countries).

If it's only for gaming then well-rounded consumer tv sets or monitors with good parts, internals, and calibrated can be just as awesome. Not to mention the current gaming-dedicated features you won't find on broadcast monitors.
There just aren't many consumer models every year that tick all essential boxes and aren't manufactured by cheapo subcontractors who don't waste time on quality control...
Just for instance the LG 27MB85R that even beat much more expensive Eizo aimed at professionals, but is crippled by low manufacturing standards and availability. Or the current ASUS G-Sync monitors that represent another variation of that in the gaming direction but are too few and dominating the market with disqualifying prices for most. Or the previous Sony W series that have been discontinued in favor to laggier 4K android sets.
Seriously do the fixed matrix PVM and BVM really offer more than those did for gaming ? The lcd sets: clearly no. The oleds ? Well despite being oleds, well who knows, for instance what the average lag with those anyway ?

Of course broadcast or consumer; none compare to actual crt's, because it's not just a matter of having enough response or proprer scaling, matching the physical properties of crt's is almost impossible (maybe much later on genuinely incredible and 6K/8K displays with equally incredible pc/processing power support lol).
The question should rather be: is that really so desirable ? To me even a simple 60Hz display with properties similar to oled and ticking well the gaming-requirement boxes will be enough already as long as a proper upscaling solution comes along.
I'll be happy with an oled of about 32"~42", low lag and clean scaling in the same fashion Sony did with the W series, and Marq's scaler wired to my vp50pro to back it all up.
My lovely crt's will still sit next to that setup though.

[nissling]

a lot of people online state that they are fulfilled by the xrgb + consumer lcd combo for their retro gaming. That's why I compared the two and that's why it is a relevant comparison

I've got myself several LCDs and plasma screens and with enough tweaking the picture is actually so good that I honestly find those setups more sane in many ways than getting a reference monitor. Of course we now have the alternative to get ourselves BVMs for a couple of hundred dollars so they are an option but comparing them right away is not just unfair but is also a completely different subject.

Consumer products are always meant to bring net revenue to the manufacturer and if it doesn't it's considered a failure. A professional monitor is more like measurement tool, one that represents the signal with as few differences to the source as possible. In other words you should be able to rely on the results from a reference monitor with no doubts whatsoever so you know what you're doing, but in the home of a consumer there's really no need for such purism.

And like I said, it even makes more sense when you keep the MSRP in mind. My Sony HDM-3830 was released in 1989 with a retail of $70,000 which today equals to nearly $130,000. Comparing that to a 50" LCD at $600 along with an XRGB-Mini is just pathetic. The BVM-E250A, one of the finest OLED monitors of today, has a retail price of $26,000 and that's what I would like to compare my CRTs against. Hell, I'd love to see what the new BVMs are capable of along with a Framemeister.

And honestly, does anyone here really miss anything from their old 26" Magnavox CRT? Other than the low amount of motion lag in bright scenes I certainly don't.

[Xyga]

You won't see a big difference, we're talking about fixed matrix here, your 1080p oled TV set will display it almost as well as your $26,000 1080p PVM.
If price or any 'pro' tag was a relevant criteria in the world of flat panels for displaying old games we'd have realized by now I believe.
If you're going to compare products the comparison should make more sense than that, otherwise you're stepping into audiophile-level sillyness where they go crazy over a $1,500 portable player that's barely any better at playing flac or mp3 files than a cheapo netbook or even a $30 Sansa Clip.

[tacoguy64]

I don’t think professional LCD/OLEDs is where people should be looking at for retro gaming (HDMI consoles and above could be a different story). The biggest game changing tech for newer panels is probably gsync/freesync monitors where they focus more on smoother motion. That combined with 4k resolution, OLED panels, and scalers have pretty good potential for retro gaming and modern gaming in general. We are still kind of far away from that but I think it’s only a matter of time.

[nissling]

Actually professional grade one LCD and OLED monitors are many steps superior to consumer products, even if you may not believe so. Just the fact that modern displays use discreet matrix doesn't change the fact that they all have their own limitations and capabilities. Chances are very low that you'll find a consumer TV (regardless it being plasma, LCD or OLED) at less than $5000 that has a perfect greyscale and spot on color accuracy, something that is needed for a production monitor.

Of course the differences aren't as huge as they were back in the days with CRTs, and back then no consumers were aware of it since they couldn't buy a BVM (just like no one here would pay $26,000 for a BVM that's only going to be used at home) but no manufacturers have any interest in delivering consumer models that are even comparable to production monitors because there are much more effective ways to make a profit.

[Xyga]

You can calibrate a consumer monitor or tv, just saying.

I've read and read again about the specs and characteristics of the current Sony brodcast offering and there's about 90% of it that you don't need for gaming.
When the essential charcateristics like display lag are unknown since there are no reviews.

If you're in film or tv production or something, well okay, there's tons of stuff you might need from the current Sony displays.
But for video games ? Definitely not, those are absolutely overkill.

EDIT: sorry for repeating myself, but really what do those objectively have to offer for us ?
PS: even color calibration is most often overkill for video games anyway.

[nissling]

Of course you can calibrate a consumer monitor, I've done so many times using colorimeter but it doesn't change the fact that the monitor you're using may not be capable of the accuracy needed for a specific standard no matter how much you try.

The reason I'm bringing up modern professional equipment to the subject is because other people are discussion old professional equipment and comparing those to consumer products. And how fair is that? Does anyone here believe that Sony put so much effort into their line of BVM monitors just so gamers could enjoy their retro games two decades later? No, they didn't. Their monitors were meant to be tools for people who work with films, TV productions, graphics and other professions where such accuracy is required. It's the exact same thing going on for modern pro monitors, and Sony surpassed their Trinitrons almost five years ago.

So instead of putting reference monitors against consumer products, don't you find it being a better idea to compare it to something in the same league? They have never been aimed towards the same group to being with and they never will.

And I'm not saying that I would pay over $20,000 for a BVM just to play some with my Mega Drive and Framemeister, but I would certainly be interested to see what that setup would be capable of.

[Xyga]

Of course if you have the opportunity then why not ? I'm for all kinds of testings and reviews that could be useful today or in the future.

It's just that you know, again with my redundancy but: even if the displays are in whole diffrent leagues, IMHO it doesn't really matter when it comes to displaying games made of only a tiny fraction of the resolution and colors of the real color formats.

Actually I think if you ever get to do that test you will end up disappointed (unless you persuade yourself they're much more superior than your brain could actually tell, a bit like what happens in the audiophile world).
PS: get to test on one of those LG oleds if you can, they're far from perfect since LG screwed up several apects, but just the sheer awesomeness of oled will blow you away. If you want to be really ojective don't limit your testing to Sony's oled, even get to try that upcoming DELL.

[nissling]

What matters isn't the feckin' games, what matters is what you're comparing. When I read something like "My BVM is much better than a Best-Buy LCD and Framemeister" I find that pathetic. If a reference monitor wasn't capable of delivering better picture than a consumer product it would be considered a failure. Sony, LG, Samsung, Sharp, Vizivio etc. have no interest at all in selling a TV or monitor to a consumer that matches a 20 year old reference monitor since it's not a selling argument.

And that's my point. Of course the food you'll find at a gourmet restaurant will hold a higher standard than what you're getting at McDonald's. Exact same thing goes for reference monitors but when people are forgetting what those CRTs were made for and then are trying to put consumer products into shame with the argument that their BVM from a film studio is better they don't have a clue of what they're comparing.

[Xyga]

I get your point and naturally we've got ot compare what's comparable.
But my point is the source also limits the relevance of the comparison in this case.
Anyway, as you say we're not going to spend the money for new broadcast monitors, insane unique luxury monitors or flagship tv sets in the 10,000 bucks, just for playing games...

[nissling]

And that makes perfect sense too. I don't think Sega or Nintendo thought their consumer were going to play the games on a reference monitor but if the possibility is there, why not?

But then again, a Volvo V70 cannot be considered bad just because you've gotten a Jaguar XK07 for free.

[kamiboy]

What an absurd discussion. The comparisons made make sense because that is what is available, and within reach of the interested users. Most here can afford an old CRT BVM or a polished-turd solution like a consumer LCD married with an upscaler of choice.

But no one, or maybe a tiny handful, have the ducats to purchase a pro display of recent make, so not only can people not make the comparison because they lack access to the equipment, but even if the comparison is made it is useless to almost anyone here who is interested in what they should spend their limited budget on.

Lastly, even regular consumer CRT's shit on polished-turd flat panel display solutions, at least they do for my taste. So I do not foresee anything changing by switching to a pro display on the turd side of the equation. Polish, polish, polish, hey presto, it's still a turd, who'd a thunk it?

[Xyga]

You don't necessarily have to buy, for instance I know at least two or three people who work or have worked in TV production as technicians and from whom I could get help with finding opportunities/contacts to borrow or try on site some hardware for a bit of time.
Not saying that would be easy nor anytime I want though.
There aren't many reviewers of whatever who buy any of the stuff they've reviewed anyway, it's all relationships and communication, gotta fight to get your hands on samples etc.

[nissling]

kamiboy: There is certainly a romantic shimmer around CRTs, and most of them are based on what the very best pro CRTs were capable of. Those doesn't have much in common with your average Magnavox set sold in the 80s. And to be honest, the CRT references hasn't really aged that well as some people think. They've pretty much been outperformed by modern equipment (both on consumer and professional levels) and there are simply too many issues with the tubes for them to be optimal in most ways.

If 20 year old F1 cars were available for free most people who got them would probably think that their old Nissan Micra is a piece of shit afterwards but it still wouldn't make any sense at all since neither of them were ever produced to compete against each other.

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

I share your opinion.. gsync/Freesync smooth motion is a game changer for modern games and the experience is incredibly on LCDs.. If some how we could bring gsyinc/freesync to the Sony FW900..dream:).. For retrostyle staff people should not be looking at LCD\OLEDs, nothing can compare to a BVM/PVM/NEC professional CRT. Now if you do not have a choice because it is extremely hard to find a BVM/PVM in your area then hunting down an old CRT PC monitor or an old TV should be your next choice and not an LCD. I don't know but I just do not like anything retro on LCD due to the ghosting and the overall look but if your prefer the LCD look over CRT for retro, then more power to you, go play and enjoy gaming on whatever you like.. after all, we are here because we love gaming:)..

In another note - if you are in the WASHDC area USA and have a BVM 32" for sale please feel free to PM me.. I'll pay good money for one;) I need... I want a BVM 32" for my Wii U and future Nintendo consoles:)

I don’t think professional LCD/OLEDs is where people should be looking at for retro gaming (HDMI consoles and above could be a different story). The biggest game changing tech for newer panels is probably gsync/freesync monitors where they focus more on smoother motion. That combined with 4k resolution, OLED panels, and scalers have pretty good potential for retro gaming and modern gaming in general. We are still kind of far away from that but I think it’s only a matter of time.

[kamiboy]

kamiboy: There is certainly a romantic shimmer around CRTs, and most of them are based on what the very best pro CRTs were capable of. Those doesn't have much in common with your average Magnavox set sold in the 80s. And to be honest, the CRT references hasn't really aged that well as some people think. They've pretty much been outperformed by modern equipment (both on consumer and professional levels) and there are simply too many issues with the tubes for them to be optimal in most ways.

If 20 year old F1 cars were available for free most people who got them would probably think that their old Nissan Micra is a piece of shit afterwards but it still wouldn't make any sense at all since neither of them were ever produced to compete against each other.

I can only speak for myself. If you give me a choice between a run of the mill consumer CRT and the very best none CRT based alternative I'll choose the CRT in a parsec. Hell, I'd pick a shitty CRT even, as long as it has RGB input capability.

Unlike some here my love of the CRT aesthetic does not start and end with pro CRT's either, mainly because as long as it is a CRT I am not so hard to please. Bad geometry does not bother me one bit.

I do have a BVM, and in the past have had a long range of different CRT's, but I play games currently on a B&O, a CRT that I imagine will leave a lot to be desired for most people, but to me it is still so much superior to low res gaming on an LCD that it is not even funny. Yes, I did once try the Framemeister mostly out of curiosity, and had an XRGB2+ also at one time.

My conclusion was to stick with using LCD's for what they excel at, HD movies and games. Fixed panel displays only shine in my eyes when the source native resolution matches the panel native resolution. The further the two diverge the further the results creep into dog shit territory.