Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Immryr]

hmm. maybe i need to play zelda 2 again, i don't remember having to grind at all on my last play through.

[kitten]

Uh... didn't even knew we was hated.

Tell you what : I'm not even MAD about the snob/ellitist tag. In fact, I EMBRACE it. to the maxxxx. Just like a heel character in pro-wrestling, lol
Fuck the haters! fuck the scrubs!

oh, wow, ya'll aren't even aware? it's been quite a while since i've been part of another forum, but this place had a reputation everywhere i went. not often mentioned, but when brought up, almost always with the same disdain for purported elitism. many shooter fans consider the idea that they need to 1cc a shooter to truly understand it deeply insulting and think it makes you unprecedentedly rude to suggest that to them, even indirectly. there is often a very severe insecurity about the threat of their perspective on the game somehow not being seen as valid or meaningful.

mind you, i've been part of some trashy forums, and probably carried a shitty attitude toward them that didn't make them any better, but yes, this is a common view of this place.

[BIL]

a side note, here, but metal slug 3 was my very first no miss clear of all time. i got beet-red in the face levels of addicted to it, and it was a true turning point for my gaming sensibilities in wee little teenage me.

Same here - actually, I've not even 1CCd that many arcade games, let alone no-missed them, so I'd rather say MS3 is one of the handful to date that I've really dug into. From memory, the only others I've no-missed are Strider and Elevator Action Returns - both decidedly easy sidescrollers by AC standards.

MS3's an insidious beast on the no-miss. In my experience, you'll be one-lifing the rest of the game long before you even finish the Final Mission (at least sticking to the safer alternate paths)... and the final mission's difficulty is mostly in its sheer duration, making deaths feel inexcusable. I remember my heart pounding like crazy when Rootmars finally died, after absolutely atrocious item drop luck... a Super Grenade spawned right as he blew up, with at least one friggin' turd beforehand. I distinctly remember thinking "so that's where they stashed the turd this time around..."

[soprano1]

many shooter fans consider the idea that they need to 1cc a shooter to truly understand it deeply insulting

Casual players, perhaps.

[Shoryukev]

I'll preface this with the fact that compared to most on this forum I consider myself indeed a scrub, BUT I agree with the merits people hold here and choose the attitude that I need to knuckle down and "git gud" at the game in question instead of whining like a bitch about it. I also don't see difficulty as a bad thing, I find the challenges exciting and interesting.

As an example (staying within the 2d action context) I beat Castlevania on the NES about 10-15 years ago, but I never really mastered it. I squeaked by, barely dodging the obstacles presented before me. Sure I was decent at it, but it took much longer to fully appreciate the game. Working towards that 1cc goal taught me so much about the game mechanics and improved my overall skills at similar games.....but it also made me truly enjoy what a masterpiece the game is. When you work at it and put that many hours into a game you get a good look at each predicament the game designers place you in.....and a game can either start to really shine, or start to fall apart. My list of 1cc's is small, but I understand the mentality of not truly understanding a game till you 1cc it.

[kitten]

many shooter fans consider the idea that they need to 1cc a shooter to truly understand it deeply insulting

Casual players, perhaps.

imo, i am a mostly casual player, and have well over a hundred 1cc's/no miss clears under my belt. i am quite good at some games, but "casual" suggests recreational entertainment, which is usually what i consider even super tuff games.

Same here - actually, I've not even 1CCd that many arcade games, let alone no-missed them, so I'd rather say MS3 is one of the handful to date that I've really dug into. From memory, the only others I've no-missed are Strider and Elevator Action Returns - both decidedly easy sidescrollers by AC standards.

MS3's an insidious beast on the no-miss. In my experience, you'll be one-lifing the rest of the game long before you even finish the Final Mission (at least sticking to the safer alternate paths)... and the final mission's difficulty is mostly in its sheer duration, making deaths feel inexcusable. I remember my heart pounding like crazy when Rootmars finally died, after absolutely atrocious item drop luck... a Super Grenade spawned right as he blew up, with at least one friggin' turd beforehand. I distinctly remember thinking "so that's where they stashed the turd this time around..."

the last time i played strider, i felt like i could probably do a no miss of it with some practice. didn't quite have it down to a 1cc, but felt like i was not far off. i was playing the capcom classics collection version - i forget if that's a more or less difficult variation. it's a pretty fine game, and i feel like it was made with relatively generous 1cc in mind. elevator action returns - is that the one with jad the taff? been meaning to replay that for a while, as well.

that compilation is also how i played through all of makaimura/gng for the first time, recently. i'd previously finished dai and cho (twice), but never quite gotten down to brass tacks and worked my way through the progenitor. i believe the variation of that one is one of the harder ones - the last level doesn't have the notorious 2 boss sandwich at the beginning of it, but it does have additional cyclops enemies on the ladder climbing bits that will absolutely terrorize you. when finishing it, i zoned out on loop 2 and forgot to continue at one point, and had to restart from loop 1 to finish the game oh, what a punishing mistake, that was.

i would love to one day 1cc makaimura, i feel it's doable, but would drive me mad. i think i could probably do daimakaimura on 1cc with relatively minimal stress, it felt like the most generous and pleasant of the bunch. i'm just not a big fan of chomakaimura, though. that double jump just never clicked with me, and boy does the game ask you to use it like a champ.

all my arcade 1cc's/no miss's are from ports, and there is an admittedly, relatively small number of them, mostly because of that. taking a quick look at my notes, the only non-shooter arcade games i've 1cc'd are: contra (no miss), super contra (holy shit, what a bastard of a game at points), metal slug 3 (no miss), shock troopers (no miss lonly wolf with big mama), and i think that might be it. it's hard to comprehensively check because the notes are sprawling and grouped by console - since i just play ports, this limits my ability to check. there's a decent little chunk of shooters, but this is - i think - everything outside of that for the arcade.

and, yes, ms3's final level is a truly ridiculous and demanding experience. i remember dying on some runs to the level 4 boss before i had the last level down, but had mostly gotten the game down entirely before i ever finished that stage. it is seriously harrowing and left me shaking on my successful run... i feel like it would possibly be improved dramatically by removing that tunnel with the barfing zombies (i never go through there without tedious abuse of entering/exiting the walker) and maybe lowering rootmarx's health just a tad.

As an example (staying within the 2d action context) I beat Castlevania on the NES about 10-15 years ago, but I never really mastered it. I squeaked by, barely dodging the obstacles presented before me. Sure I was decent at it, but it took much longer to fully appreciate the game. Working towards that 1cc goal taught me so much about the game mechanics and improved my overall skills at similar games.....but it also made me truly enjoy what a masterpiece the game is. When you work at it and put that many hours into a game you get a good look at each predicament the game designers place you in.....and a game can either start to really shine, or start to fall apart. My list of 1cc's is small, but I understand the mentality of not truly understanding a game till you 1cc it.

my 1cc of castlevania (i never did a no miss - those goddamn bats on the walkway in the last stage feel like a lottery, and are the only thing that have prevented it) was jarringly recent at only about a year ago. for someone that loves the famicom as much as i, i really put that one off a long time. didn't even play the 2nd loop until recently, too, even though it doesn't effect the later stages very much and most notably makes the fourth level a bit more of a pain with the changed timers on the mermen. the castlevania series is largely untouched by me in challenge runs, to be honest! the first one is probably my favorite for its raw mechanical prowess. though there are some rough elements, you can REALLY dig into that sucker and i find it to be more finely crafted than akumajou densetsu, even (which is due for another crack at it when a cart i ordered finally gets here).

one of the biggest things i feel are key to enjoying that game to a higher degree is the realization that you can manipulate multi-shot power-ups to spawn. you simply need to destroy a lot of things with your subweapon, and candles count! this makes recovery MUCH easier and helps you learn the game at a much more rapid rate. i still hate memorizing what is in particular candles, though.

[FinalBaton]

I'll preface this with the fact that compared to most on this forum I consider myself indeed a scrub, BUT I agree with the merits people hold here and choose the attitude that I need to knuckle down and "git gud" at the game in question instead of whining like a bitch about it. I also don't see difficulty as a bad thing, I find the challenges exciting and interesting.

Agreed. I was joking back there. But more seriously: I think people have a good attitude on the forum of trying to help others master the games by sharing tips when they see someone struggle.

[WelshMegalodon]

Uh... didn't even knew we was hated.

Something something "Gatekeepers suck"/"There's no such thing as a true fan"/"Stop calling us fake geeks"/"I don't have time to master X game"/"retro gamz r padding", etc., etc. I don't know what other people think of SHMUPs, but that might have something to do with it. I will say there are a number of strange people on this forum and a bit of a "games were better back in the day" circlejerk, though neither of those things come across as terribly elitist.

oh, wow, ya'll aren't even aware? it's been quite a while since i've been part of another forum, but this place had a reputation everywhere i went. not often mentioned, but when brought up, almost always with the same disdain for purported elitism. many shooter fans consider the idea that they need to 1cc a shooter to truly understand it deeply insulting and think it makes you unprecedentedly rude to suggest that to them, even indirectly. there is often a very severe insecurity about the threat of their perspective on the game somehow not being seen as valid or meaningful.

mind you, i've been part of some trashy forums, and probably carried a shitty attitude toward them that didn't make them any better, but yes, this is a common view of this place.

Do tell.

[soprano1]

imo, i am a mostly casual player

I meant people that download a rom to play in mame, think it's too hard, or are too lazy to even credit feed, then return to their crappy mobile games.

[kitten]

I meant people that download a rom to play in mame, think it's too hard, or are too lazy to even credit feed, then return to their crappy mobile games.

an absolutely shocking number of shmup scrubs actually spend heinously large amounts of money on the games they pick up (and jack the prices up for those wishing to seriously play them), and then either credit feed through them a single time or never get page stage 2 or 3 in checkpoint shooters. i've learned this from rubbernecking a bunch of people on youtube over the years (and some forum experience) while trying to find gems they might have picked out in top 10 lists (which almost never bears fruit - rubbernecking is my way of getting SOMETHING out of the otherwise dreadful experience). in my experience, the collector tourists far outnumber the people genuinely appreciating the joy of play.

Something something "Gatekeepers suck"/"There's no such thing as a true fan"/"Stop calling us fake geeks"/"I don't have time to master X game"/"retro gamz r padding", etc., etc. I don't know what other people think of SHMUPs, but that might have something to do with it. I will say there are a number of strange people on this forum and a bit of a "games were better back in the day" circlejerk, though neither of those things come across as terribly elitist.

my absolute favorite is the "i don't have time/i'm a grown adult with a job" people. these are almost always the type that buy every single ubisoft and bethesda open world game and collect meaningless doodads for dozens to hundreds of hours every month. it is with near perfect accuracy that their alleged lack of free time is a total lie, and you'll see people on places like GAF belt this one before you can finish your sentence. they're kinds of people for whom "content" is completing checklists and watching numbers go up. grinding or farming in the same area on the same enemy for hours on end is somehow acceptable to these people because progress = content and content = fun, but that a game would send you back to the beginning for repeated failures is a tremendous affront. it's seriously just silly.

Do tell.

eh, i wanna put my old forum business behind me. i feel like i've said about enough to relay the gist of it.

also: some of you seem curious about my shooter taste. i contributed to the top 25 thread and it might give you some perspective, if you care.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

To respond to some discussion last page - I played through Zelda 2 for the first time in a few years a couple of weeks ago, and I definitely don't feel like it really requires any grinding. It seems perfectly reasonable to just plow through the game without going out of your way to farm for EXP. Not to say the game isn't kind of flawed in other regards (won't disagree on the overworld frequently feeling empty, the existence of a leveling system is something of a sin, and I can see the "puzzles" being obnoxious for some people, though I enjoyed working them out when I first played the game and thought most of them were intuitive and charmingly quaint). Not to mention, yeah, despite the game's great-feeling swashbuckling combat, the level design just doesn't hold up compared to linear action games like Castlevania.

More of a fan of the first Zelda overall, although I waffle back and forth. One day maybe I'll get around to A Link Between Worlds - I like what I've heard but I have to imagine the game's difficulty is too low for it to be as exciting as even the original.

[kitten]

More of a fan of the first Zelda overall, although I waffle back and forth. One day maybe I'll get around to A Link Between Worlds - I like what I've heard but I have to imagine the game's difficulty is too low for it to be as exciting as even the original.

there is an unlockable "hero mode" that you may access after playing through the game, once. i believe it has only one change: quadruple enemy damage. and hoo boy, does it make the game a lot better and much more interesting. brings about a very pleasant tension that makes you not want to just plow through encounters as nuisances during your travels.

imho: try and get a used cart where the player has already beaten the game, so you can start from hero mode right off the bat

[WelshMegalodon]

my absolute favorite is the "i don't have time/i'm a grown adult with a job" people. these are almost always the type that buy every single ubisoft and bethesda open world game and collect meaningless doodads for dozens to hundreds of hours every month. it is with near perfect accuracy that their alleged lack of free time is a total lie, and you'll see people on places like GAF belt this one before you can finish your sentence. they're kinds of people for whom "content" is completing checklists and watching numbers go up. grinding or farming in the same area on the same enemy for hours on end is somehow acceptable to these people because progress = content and content = fun, but that a game would send you back to the beginning for repeated failures is a tremendous affront. it's seriously just silly.

What do you suppose compels people to pull out the "free time" argument instead of admitting that they don't care for the genres in question?

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

there is an unlockable "hero mode" that you may access after playing through the game, once. i believe it has only one change: quadruple enemy damage. and hoo boy, does it make the game a lot better and much more interesting. brings about a very pleasant tension that makes you not want to just plow through encounters as nuisances during your travels.

imho: try and get a used cart where the player has already beaten the game, so you can start from hero mode right off the bat

Yeah! If possible I'd love to; it seems like the game would benefit greatly from that mode being used for a first playthrough. Disappointing that you have to jump through hoops for that to be possible though.

What do you suppose compels people to pull out the "free time" argument instead of admitting that they don't care for the genres in question?

I think it's really just that even if going for 1CCs or 1LCs is not often that hard, it still requires a different mindset to tackle compared to the content tourism that most big or popular modern games provide. So I tihnk it's really energy, not time that these people are unwilling to put into their post-work leisure period - it's easier (and, if you lack certain tastes, more rewarding) to veg out and wander around the world of Ubisoft Game than it is to nail down the execution to no-miss Gimmick's stage 6.

[__SKYe]

Damn, this thread moves fast.

i'm aware of, but not familiar with the sfc shubibinman game. i try to not emulate games (not for "ethical" purposes - i simply find that buying games paces me and helps me appreciate what i have more), but if i ever get a flash cart, i'll be sure to give it a shot.

I respect that. And no doubt that playing legitely owned games gives you a bigger incentive to play/finish them.

gekisha boy is one i've been looking out for, as well. i've heard a lot of praise for it and its unique premise. i like pokemon snap, so i might like it, too.

I'd say this is superior to Pokemon Snap by the sheer weirdness of it.
Seriously, you have to give it a shot, or watch a short video to get a glimpse of it. It is absolutely fantastic.

something i was surprised to not see recommended to me in either of your lists was gomola speed - i've heard quite a number of good things about this one, and recently ordered a copy (which should be here... in a few weeks).

I wasn't familiar with Gomola Speed, but I will have to check it now.

uhhhhh, the dragon in seirei densetsu lickle is a girl. that's a great game. that... kind of counts?

there are a number of belt scrollers, too, yeah. like alien vs predator arcade or any of the bare knuckle games.

For bishoujo games, one I find quite nice to play, is Ninja Princess (ARC).
Another one I absolutely like, and is damn cute as well is Spica Adventure for Tatio Type-X. This one is one of the more recent games Taito published, and I find incredibly fun to play.

As for beat-em-ups, you have Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon for Arcade, SNES and Mega Drive.
They aren't as good as Final Fight, but well worth playing (though I find the SNES game superior to the Mega Drive one).

You said Kato-Chan & Ken-Chan isn't really "noteworthy" (which I'd actually agree with)

Yeah, but we have to memeber that besides being a launch game (and which I find has a very similar feeling to Adventure island), it's main appeal was the connection with the Japanese comedy duo, so I think part of it's original charm is lost on non-japanese players.

oh, wow, ya'll aren't even aware? it's been quite a while since i've been part of another forum, but this place had a reputation everywhere i went. there is often a very severe insecurity about the threat of their perspective on the game somehow not being seen as valid or meaningful.

I wasn't aware either, but then again, this is the first forum (gaming related) I've actually joined, and quite unlike those people, I've only got respect for it.
This is, quite honestly, a fantastic place to discuss games, and the people involved have been nothing but great to me.
Hell, if I hadn't visited this thread in particular, I wouldn't have cleared Ninja Gaiden.

I'll preface this with the fact that compared to most on this forum I consider myself indeed a scrub, BUT I agree with the merits people hold here and choose the attitude that I need to knuckle down and "git gud" at the game in question instead of whining like a bitch about it. I also don't see difficulty as a bad thing, I find the challenges exciting and interesting.

Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with not putting the time and effort to 1CC a game, if you don't consider the activity worth it.
You just cannot make up excuses as to why you didn't 1CCed a game in order to mask your lack of effort/time/interest.

What do you suppose compels people to pull out the "free time" argument instead of admitting that they don't care for the genres in question?

I think is the fact that in open-world games, despite how mundane the task they give you are, you don't replay a part of the level/game because you died. As long as your items /level/virtual money count is going up, the mindless player will remain entertained.
Instead, if people have to replay a part of the game, because they lost a life (like every classic game ever), then it becomes a waste of time.
They are repeating themselves after all. And that is just wrong.

EDIT: I forgot about one game with a female protagonist. Rutsy for the PC-98.
It can be described as Castlevania with a leather clad female hero(ine). It pretty decent, so it might be worth taking a look, if you're not fmailiar with it.

[kitten]

What do you suppose compels people to pull out the "free time" argument instead of admitting that they don't care for the genres in question?

insecurity. most modern games are about constantly empowering the player. checklists, numbers going up, achievements/trophies, and stat tracking have become crucial parts of them. checkpoints are super frequent so that progress - which has become something near entirely divorced from skill building in many modern games - never really feels lost. i feel you can start tracking games leaning toward this design as early as the super famicom and with influential titles like super mario world. the marathon aspect of mario that was going away in 3 is fully gone by world, and it has become a game about finding exits and secrets. most levels can be flown right over, and you can skip the entire game if you want. at almost no point does it really become particularly challenging. not that there is anything necessarily wrong with playground style design, i've adored the recent mario and kirby games, but it's a good thing to point to to see how games were shifting, back then. zelda became more focused on hand-holding linearity on the sfc, and super metroid had tons of distractions, an automap, a legend for the map that tells you where secrets might be, etc. again, i am not necessarily cracking on these games, but pointing a few things out how even this early on we were noticeably shifting games toward being easier and having more distractions.

gamers love to feel like they are told they're doing well when what they're really doing is simply inputting greater amounts of time and getting less out, as a result. but that fear - that comfort of knowing it is "progress" - becomes paramount to the intoxicating empowerment that modern games offer. the new doom has enemies that basically stand still and wait for you to walk over to them and rip them in half, and the game is divided into constant checkpoints with tons of collectibles to offer a sense of progression and numerous distractions. while it may or may not be a competent arena shooter (it is certainly not like classic doom), it is undeniable that it has been heavily tainted by this type of design. players want to feel strong, and they want to feel strong all the time no matter how poor they are.

"i don't have the time" makes you sound adult. it makes you sound like you've got your shit together and something else going on. most importantly, it dodges the accusation that you're not good at or don't want to get good at games, and allows you to continue your power fantasies with as strong an insulation to criticism as possible. you're good enough for ANY game. you could totally beat all these tough games, you're just too busy, too preoccupied with something better than wasting your time. i applaud people who have given some effort to these games and just admit not liking them or being unable to get into them, but the lies to cover your ass and assert your True Gamerdom are just too tempting for gamers. they're used to being told they're great and wonderful and powerful and capable all the time, why would they admit to themselves that they merely have a fragile ego and often narrow-minded taste?

Yeah! If possible I'd love to; it seems like the game would benefit greatly from that mode being used for a first playthrough. Disappointing that you have to jump through hoops for that to be possible though.

it does suck, but thank god the option is there. my fellow friend who was stalwart about zelda being all downhill after the first considers this one good, even! and i thankfully made him aware of hero mode before he borrowed a friend's copy to play it. i would say it definitely improved his opinion. you can only take a measly two hits before death at the start of the game! good fun to finally have a bit of caution and even fear, especially if you're renting items and don't want to waste your rupees.

Damn, this thread moves fast.

i'm tearing it up!

I'd say this is superior to Pokemon Snap by the sheer weirdness of it.
Seriously, you have to give it a shot, or watch a short video to get a glimpse of it. It is absolutely fantastic.

it is, unfortunately, a little bit pricey. it's on the list of stuff to get, but that price might keep it at bay for a while.

I wasn't familiar with Gomola Speed, but I will have to check it now.

do post what you think! i believe there's a story with this game about this game's programmer getting scouted by nintendo that i've never followed up on looking into.

[Sumez]

there is an unlockable "hero mode" that you may access after playing through the game, once. i believe it has only one change: quadruple enemy damage. and hoo boy, does it make the game a lot better and much more interesting. brings about a very pleasant tension that makes you not want to just plow through encounters as nuisances during your travels.

imho: try and get a used cart where the player has already beaten the game, so you can start from hero mode right off the bat

Even on hero mode, A Link Between Worlds is laughably easy. It's too bad really, cause the game is well designed enough that it could do well without all the ridiculous amounts of leeway it gives you.
What I did, having already sort of predicted that immediately after unlocking "hero mode", I decided to do a 3 heart challenge, something I've never actually done in a Zelda game before. Ie. skip every heart container the game gives you so that you get to play through the game with only the 3 hearts that you start with. On Hero Mode, of coure.

It doesn't even make the game particularly difficult, it's still perfectly manageable, but a lot more enjoyable! Made me go from "this game is alright, but a bit bland" to "wow, this is a really good game".

edit:
As for the Zelda 2 response you gave on the last page. I feel this has already been debated as much as it should in my absence, but I'll just point out that I don't think any of the stuff you mentioned counts as "bullshit", at least not in the traditional primitive 8-bit sense that you see in most other titles on the platform. Well, the grinding would have been bullshit, but as everyone else also stated, I never had to grind in Zelda 2. I'm sure you could, but there is never any reason to. I don't really consider it linear either. Sure, it's not completely nonlinear, but I personally enjoy taking a lot of the temples out of order. I make a habit of always getting the downstab as soon as possible, meaning an early super dangerous hike to Death Mounterin.

[WelshMegalodon]

But then there's that whole bit about RTS and MOBA players, and how they completely disprove the "lazy gamer" stereotype, and...

Guess this discussion isn't going anywhere this time, either.

[sharc]

Yeah! If possible I'd love to; it seems like the game would benefit greatly from that mode being used for a first playthrough. Disappointing that you have to jump through hoops for that to be possible though.

it does suck, but thank god the option is there. my fellow friend who was stalwart about zelda being all downhill after the first considers this one good, even! and i thankfully made him aware of hero mode before he borrowed a friend's copy to play it. i would say it definitely improved his opinion. you can only take a measly two hits before death at the start of the game! good fun to finally have a bit of caution and even fear, especially if you're renting items and don't want to waste your rupees.

you're makin me dust off my shmups account and everything

yeah following kitten's advice and playing hero mode as a first playthrough made all the difference in the world. i'd say go to just about any length for that sake! even if it means handing it off to a friend and asking them to finish it for you first :U

i would almost definitely have a much lower opinion of the game if i had to slog through the normal game first, and for something as long-running as this series it's beyond baffling that they don't just let you play it from the start. just gimmie a "yes i played a zelda before" button that quadruples damage and doesn't insist on telling me what a red rupee is worth, please

[kitten]

It doesn't even make the game particularly difficult, it's still perfectly manageable, but a lot more enjoyable! Made me go from "this game is alright, but a bit bland" to "wow, this is a really good game".

interesting! i might try this on a replay. i'd like to forget where things are a little bit more, though, so it probably won't be soon

As for the Zelda 2 response you gave on the last page. I feel this has already been debated as much as it should in my absence, but I'll just point out that I don't think any of the stuff you mentioned counts as "bullshit", at least not in the traditional primitive 8-bit sense that you see in most other titles on the platform. Well, the grinding would have been bullshit, but as everyone else also stated, I never had to grind in Zelda 2. I'm sure you could, but there is never any reason to. I don't really consider it linear either. Sure, it's not completely nonlinear, but I personally enjoy taking a lot of the temples out of order. I make a habit of always getting the downstab as soon as possible, meaning an early super dangerous hike to Death Mounterin.

i suppose if you have the game memorized, there's ways around these things, but it does not feel like a game meant for action-oriented replays. there is a lot of just walking around and having nothing but nuisance encounters or meet-ups with townspeople, even when you know what you're doing. i imagine the pain of using the fairy at the wrong time and needing another potion is reduced when you have a route, but i feel having a route in a zelda game kind of defeats its purpose.

i think we simply have different priorities and sensibilities, in these regards.

But then there's that whole bit about RTS and MOBA players, and how they completely disprove the "lazy gamer" stereotype, and...

Guess this discussion isn't going anywhere this time, either.

i don't believe that i accused modern gamers of laziness, just insecurity and taking the more immediately gratifying route? many of them honestly play games more than i do. although i'm largely unfamiliar with MOBAs, i obviously cannot account for every conceivable type of gamer in my description. i'm merely describing a very common pathos that i feel i've observed. even modern competitive fps multiplayer has been stilted enormously toward stat-tracking and metagaming, earning cosmetics options, etc. few forms of modern game design completely avoid progression, and even MOBAs have seasons, ranking, and brackets as motivation (and sometimes cosmetic rewards for these things).

there is less taking pure gratification in play and much more obsession with metagaming and validation. i was a warframe whale for a while (i'm freeeee), and was constantly exposed to people wrapped up in considering themselves more capable than other players through the merit of how much time they had consumed or how efficient their farming was, etc. i would say there is a shift away from "having fun" and toward "being validated that you're doing something." i have had many people ask me why i even do one life runs when i cannot verifiably prove them to others with achievements, as if i do it for the bragging rights and not the sheer pleasure.

[WelshMegalodon]

i don't believe that i accused modern gamers of laziness, just insecurity and taking the more immediately gratifying route? many of them honestly play games more than i do. although i'm largely unfamiliar with MOBAs, i obviously cannot account for every conceivable type of gamer in my description. i'm merely describing a very common pathos that i feel i've observed. even modern competitive fps multiplayer has been stilted enormously toward stat-tracking and metagaming, earning cosmetics options, etc. few forms of modern game design completely avoid progression, and even MOBAs have seasons, ranking, and brackets as motivation (and sometimes cosmetic rewards for these things).

there is less taking pure gratification in play and much more obsession with metagaming and validation. i was a warframe whale for a while (i'm freeeee), and was constantly exposed to people wrapped up in considering themselves more capable than other players through the merit of how much time they had consumed or how efficient their farming was, etc. i would say there is a shift away from "having fun" and toward "being validated that you're doing something." i have had many people ask me why i even do one life runs when i cannot verifiably prove them to others with achievements, as if i do it for the bragging rights and not the sheer pleasure.

Ah. Clearly I misunderstood you the first time. though this point remains remarkably similar what's been said here for years and years. It does seem closer to the truth...

[kitten]

Ah. Clearly I misunderstood you the first time. though this point remains remarkably similar what's been said here for years and years. It does seem closer to the truth...

as a new member of the shumps dot com choir, i feel i've gotta get a little singing and preaching to the rest of it out of the way, eh? i had a feeling this might be something circularly discussed on here, but it's nice to vent and blow a little steam off by retouching the subject every once in a while. discussing it with ya'll is definitely new to me, at least.

as circular as this discussion often ends up being, i feel that it is so because modern gaming is caught chasing its own tail, as well. i bitch and moan because i'm still invested in it, still being disappointed in new, but similar ways.

mind you, there is some modern stuff i do love, and i feel like narrative-focused games have never had better opportunity to reach more people.

[Vanguard]

Zelda 2 is a masterpiece and by far the best game in the series. You don't need to grind if you're not losing your experience to continues. It's not even that linear either. The palaces have to be done more or less in order, but only up to where their treasures are, after that you're free to put off the second half if you want to, for example, rush to a particular upgrade asap. You can even carry keys from one palace to use in another one which opens up further routing possibilities.

Budgeting your magic is a nice bit of lightweight strategy - you gotta figure out what you need, then go through the things you want and refine your list of which take priority. There are some hard decisions of when to cast shield or heal and when to press your luck without them.

And of course the combat and difficulty are miles ahead of any other Zelda game.

i am indeed familiar, but thank you. that video misses out on demonstrating the unique behavior of the last molar enemy in stage 7 that i mentioned, though. in fact, i've never seen anyone mention it, other than myself. it's quite neat. it also misses the hidden bombs in the palm trees at the beginning of stage 4 - a very commonly unknown secret. ride the pterodactyls back to the palm trees and jump on the coconuts for a nice surprise! i forget if it shows that you can make the snail in stage 7 who is hanging from the conveyor belt fall into the water if you jump just above him, too.

it also misses the bug in stage 5's secret, which is slightly known about, but it's a bug and i don't mind that it's absent from the video. if you jump in the space between the edge of the conveyor belt and the tile it is connecting to in the area where you're meant to alchemize 1ups, and you jump in it ever so precisely, you'll fall through the gap and end up between the level. there is some weird stuff you can do with this bug, and i thiiiink there's some other place you can activate it? maybe? i forget. i found this on accident and later discovered it was known, but not at all commonly.

that video honestly always bothered me a little bit because ol' bad opinions frank cifaldi likes to perpetuate the myth that the game is some sort of hyper-hardcore platformer only playable by ascended human beings. he has to play the game at like 1/3rd speed and is still embarrassingly bad at it.

The video also doesn't mention that one enemy who can be controlled by player 2's controller. And yeah, he is pretty bad at the game, and there's a bit of misinformation in there (he refers to Yumetaro as Gimmick), but what's more important is that he shows off many of the cooler things about an amazing, underappreciated game and he shows a lot of passion while doing it.

[kitten]

The video also doesn't mention that one enemy who can be controlled by player 2's controller. And yeah, he is pretty bad at the game, and there's a bit of misinformation in there (he refers to Yumetaro as Gimmick), but what's more important is that he shows off many of the cooler things about an amazing, underappreciated game and he shows a lot of passion while doing it.

ah, man, i forgot he did that. calling yumetaro "gimmick" or "mr. gimmick" just makes me cringe. not saying frank does this, too, but it reminds me of all the people getting repros with that hideous european box art and title instead of just buying the famicom cart or making repros of that. tawdry obsession with classic western advertising of eastern games always rubs me the wrong way, it feels so superficial and ironic.

i do appreciate that the video gave some people a good look at the game and feel like gimmick has oodles of merits outside of its challenge which he does dive into, but i wish it had been done by someone with more passion and understanding of the mechanics. gimmick has a slight bit of a reputation as a game for elite players and runners, when i feel like it's highly accessible and just has a high learning curve. he perpetuates this by repeatedly exaggerating its difficulty. i'm possibly getting a capture device, soon, perhaps i should do my own annotated playthrough.

also, i'm still just bitter at frank over promising us the criterion collection of games and then getting digital eclipse to bungle things up and release mega man legacy collection. you've got m2 there - who are frankly wonderful at their job and humble about it - and you instead go for a company with a blatantly horrible track record and get an expectantly shoddy product. he's go this big ego and reputation for being a games preservationist and does some honestly meaningful work, but so much of what he approaches has this stench of tourism, like gaming is some sort of museum novelty.

[FinalBaton]

if you're not losing your experience to continues.

Yes, wanted to say this but I forgot at the last minute! That's a great point. One thing to look for is definitely to play it safe when you have a ton of xp (like, over 2000) and are still a bunch away from your level up. Because dying and losing those 2500 xp can be infuriating. So when reaching that milestone I sometimes get out of the palace and go near a town so that I can refill life and magic if need be. Agreed though that if you don't loose any significant amount of xp, you shouldn't have to grind at all. I lost 2000+ xp twice in my current game and had to grind a bit.

That was an awesome write-up on zelda 2 by the way. Really enjoyed it and pretty much agree with the whole thing.



Not quite sure it's my fave Zelda though. I really like ALTTP and Link's Awakening. But these last two are completely different games than Zelda 2, so it's hard to pick a favourite! ALTTP and Link's Awakening are first and foremost exploration games, with combat that is not nearly as satisfying as Zelda 2's, yes. But the exploration side is way better than Zelda 2. And Zelda 2 is like the opposite of those 2 games.

I really really love Zelda 2 though, so this is a though call.

[Sumez]

ah, man, i forgot he did that. calling yumetaro "gimmick" or "mr. gimmick" just makes me cringe. not saying frank does this, too, but it reminds me of all the people getting repros with that hideous european box art and title instead of just buying the famicom cart or making repros of that. tawdry obsession with classic western advertising of eastern games always rubs me the wrong way, it feels so superficial and ironic.

As much as I've been defending the right to use the Japanese names of games and characters, etc. in here, I'm gonna keep calling Yumetaro "Mr. Gimmick". After all, that's what the game was always like here, and what I grew up with. I'm not sure how you manage to translate that into an "obsession with advertising". I also call Mario's princess "toadstool", and A Link to the Past is "Zelda 3" to me. Habits that you pick up as a kid just don't let go.

I prefer calling Daimakaimura by its Japanese name, because I find the English names of that series confusing and dumb. But I'm not gonna cringe at people using the English titles that are after all more well known in this part of the world.

[__SKYe]

I've been playing Gomola Speed for the last couple hours, and it is indeed pretty good.

Think of the classic Snake game, but much more fun.
You start with just the head and, like the original you pick up parts to enlarge yourself. Parts are not static though, they will cruise all around the stage, but you just have to touch them to grow. The game freezes for a second everytime you pick one, so you can imagine that after a while it gets pretty annoying, especially when you pick many in succession. It's just a minor hiccup, though. You can also eat enemies (described in more detail below).

For the most part, the objective of the game is to "eat" every food item (I call them pellets). After doing so, an exit will appear, and you just have to touch it to advance to the next stage.
To "eat" a pellet, you have to encircle it with your body, and you need a big enough body to be able to do it, so in many cases, you have to go around searching for body parts before you're able to eat things.
This is a bit harder than one might think, since whenever you touch one, it will move in the direction you're pushing, so most of the time, you'll end up pushing it away when trying to encircle it.
It definitely takes practice to take one's encircling skill up to par. And you will need it, when you've stunned an enemy, and are trying the eat up pellets as fast as you can, before the enemies unstun (or respawn, if you ate them).

There are enemies on each level (a few varieties), and if they touch the head of your snake, you lose a life. But if they touch anywhere in the body, then every part after the one they touch will separate from the snake, and wander around waiting to be picked up again.

If you press button I, you move faster, which is of paramount importance, when running away from danger.
By pressing button II, you can drop a bomb on the floor, which after a few seconds will explode. The bomb can stun enemies and destroy some blocks. It can also destroy you, so getting caught in the explosion is the same as getting hit by an enemy (including dying, if the head gets caught up in it).
The trick is that the bomb is dropped by the last piece of your tail, so you have to maneuver just right, so that the tail is where you want to drop the bomb.

The game is quite good in respect to enemies, since every one of them behaves differently (some will wander around, some will follow you on sight, etc), and some will be attracted by the bombs, but if an enemy touches the bomb, it will be stuck in place, giving you a bit of peace.
If you stun an enemy, you can eat them the same way you eat pellets (surrounding them). The problem is that it is even harder to surround them then pellets, because all of them are bigger (some of them much bigger). If you eat them, they will respawn after a while, in a more dangerous form (a recolour, but it moves faster, and some eat bombs).
Some bosses (yes, there are bosses ) will need to be beat this way.

To exit a level, you need to have the full sized snake, meaning you need to catch every single body piece.
This may sound simple, but recall that a single touch from an enemy will sever the snake in two, so this is not always an easy thing to do.

There's quite a bit of challenge involved, since for the most part, you need to have a full sized snake, otherwise you won't be able to eat things, the problem is that, while you don't die unless the head is hit (which isn't too hard to do also), you'll have to constantly be securing body pieces, and in a few levels, this can be maddening.
Especially since some levels have precarious places, where losing body pieces, is a pain in the ass.

The other annoyance (though not too bad), is that trying to pass through small gaps, will often times make you get stuck to the wall, which can get you killed.

There's also a couple of items: one freezes everything on screen for a while (monsters and pellets), and the other makes you go invincible for 6 seconds (you move automatically, and can touch enemies to stun them).

On some specific stages, you can pick a greenish pellet, which makes you fire a shot instead of the usual bomb. And yes, it is mandatory for that stage, since there's always some challenge requiring it.

Other than that, you start with 3 lives, and some continues (3 I think), but the game gives passwords, so you can always continue where you left off, even after a game over.

On the first stage you play (regardless if you started using a password), much like Gauntlet, the game will show textboxes with information of what to do, when you make some action. It's in English too, so it's a nice touch.

Another cool thing is the scoring system.
You get points for everything you do. Encircling a pellet gives you some points, and encircling several at the same time gives you even more (though is quite hard to do).
Eating enemies also gives you points, and eating every enemy on screen will give points as well. This becomes impossible to do on most stages though, since they are too big, and enemies respawn after a while.
Throughout the game, there are bonus items which will give points when picked up also. These just need to be touched to pick them up, not encircled.

Every so often, you get a sort of bonus round, where every floor tile is darkened, and encirling the tiles will brighten them and reveal if they are hiding something. This "something" can be pellets (there's always some), enemies, 1-UPs, and other items.
1-Ups are eaten like pellets, but they more fast, so they require fast skills to eat. Couple that with the enemies on screen, and it becomes quite the challenge sometimes.
So unlike your typical bonud round, where you get points and items for free, here, you have to fight for them.
Oh, and you get an extra score bonus for revealing every tile in these bonus rounds (did I mention the score system is cool? ).

I can't think of anything else on top of my head, if I do, I'll post it as well.

Al I can say is, you won't definitely regret buying it, it is very fun to play.

i don't believe that i accused modern gamers of laziness, just insecurity and taking the more immediately gratifying route? many of them honestly play games more than i do.

I think that time spent playing does not make a gamer "mature" (I say mature here, for lack of a better word, but I mean someone who sees and enjoys the fine points of any given game (mature), rather than just mindless playing for the sake of it).
I think that what separates hardcore (in the good sense, meaning interested/passionate) gamers from casual ones, isn't do much a question of how much time they spent playing, but rather the mentality they have when it comes to games.

I prefer calling Daimakaimura by its Japanese name, because I find the English names of that series confusing and dumb. But I'm not gonna cringe at people using the English titles that are after all more well known in this part of the world.

Haha, it took me quite a while to remember which of "Ghosts & Goblins" and "Ghouls & Ghosts" was the first game in the series.

[kitten]

As much as I've been defending the right to use the Japanese names of games and characters, etc. in here, I'm gonna keep calling Yumetaro "Mr. Gimmick". After all, that's what the game was always like here, and what I grew up with. I'm not sure how you manage to translate that into an "obsession with advertising". I also call Mario's princess "toadstool", and A Link to the Past is "Zelda 3" to me. Habits that you pick up as a kid just don't let go.

frank ain't european, though. he didn't grow up with "mr. gimmick." no one here in america did, aside from some extremely minimal advertising. it's a conscious, deliberate decision to choose to go with the localized name and box that erases portions of the game's identity and wipes over its lovely art, at this point. there is a fear of import games that a lot of westerners have that genuinely baffles me - these games are from japan, made by japanese. the refusal to embrace and appreciate that and instead get everything as it was advertised or intended to be advertised over here baffles me. gimmick's european version even wipes the four japanese characters from the title screen - the only trace of "foreign" anywhere in the game.

i still more frequently use "mega man" more than the more accurate "rockman," for the record. i agree that some old habits die hard, and i'm not going to begrudge you or someone else using the term "mr gimmick" who grew up with it. but that's the thing, hardly anyone actually grew up with that due to the game's limited release not even reaching many people in europe. when you have no past experience, no memories causing you to think one way or the other, choosing to go with the localization is often choosing to embrace a shitty rebranding of an otherwise nice thing. if someone has a passion for old games, i'd imagine it should be for the authentic thing, not how it was branded to sell to foreigners who had no input in the design process or creation. so often is the first piece of discussion over the original mega man game its ridiculous box - who cares??? it's silly and ancillary, and in my opinion, so is the "mr. gimmick" name. a useless piece of silly trivia, at this point, not what people who didn't regularly grow up with that should be reproducing.

if the decision was made for you growing up or by a mass audience around you, keep calling it whatever is most convenient. if you're in control of the decision with no past influence, go for the authentic name. SOMETIMES the authentic name is the localized name, and that's what i often strive for! i still call shatterhand by that name because it was not intended to be a solbrain game, for example. cifaldi is a games preservationist, and i do expect him to provide comprehensive, authentic commentary. it is literally his job. most of those who he is presenting this game to are being exposed to it for the very first time, i feel there is a slightly responsibility for him to mention the character's actual name is yumetaro.

I've been playing Gomola Speed for the last couple hours, and it is indeed pretty good.

this is definitely sounding good! i'm surprised to hear claims of it maintaining some difficulty, too, i had worried this would be an all-too-sedate experience. too many gimmicky games like this stop short of doing anything interesting with their mechanics and end up feeling like tech demos. sounds like there's a real game, here. the copy i bought was 2000 yen, and is actually brand new! i'm excited to get to open a sealed pc engine game, even if it's shredding some shrink wrap

I think that what separates hardcore (in the good sense, meaning interested/passionate) gamers from casual ones, isn't do much a question of how much time they spent playing, but rather the mentality they have when it comes to games.

i agree. it's more about the mentality in approach, than anything.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I kind of have to agree on not liking the Mr. Gimmick title. As someone who almost never goes out of his way to use the original Japanese title, the renaming of the main character to Mr. Gimmick of all things sounds kind of tacky. Not an inspired name change. Plus yeah, the western boxart is just absolutely piss-ugly (whereas the Japanese boxart is fantastic and charming). I wouldn't ever fault anyone who happened to genuinely grow up with the Scandinavian release somehow, but it kind of baffles me why someone who learned about the game through the internet of today would prefer to associate the game with that lame title and boxart.

[__SKYe]

this is definitely sounding good! i'm surprised to hear claims of it maintaining some difficulty, too, i had worried this would be an all-too-sedate experience. too many gimmicky games like this stop short of doing anything interesting with their mechanics and end up feeling like tech demos. sounds like there's a real game, here. the copy i bought was 2000 yen, and is actually brand new! i'm excited to get to open a sealed pc engine game, even if it's shredding some shrink wrap

There is indeed challenge, though given our difference in experience, you may not find it as challenging. Time will tell.

The premise is simple enough: pick up body parts, and eat pellets.
But when you consider that, the number of body parts is just right to allow you to eat enemies, and only slightly bigger than the neccessary to eat the pellets, and also that, even though you won't die from being touched by an enemy (outside of the head, of course), you still need those parts, so you must go back to get them.
Couple this with some claustrophobic locations, and you can begin to see how it is not quite the walk in the park.

This makes it quite fun though, as you are constantly weighting stunning and eating enemies vs stunning and taking take brief stun period to eat the pellets, before they unstun. And again, given that encircling pellets takes skill, it makes it even more tense.
Also eating enemies isn't quite as easy as eating pellets, so you need to be careful to not be touching them when they unstun.
One might even reason that eating the enemies gives you the space neccessary to peacefully eat the pellets, but they respawn will respawn soon enough, and they will respawn more baddass, so there's only a risk/reward thing going on.

Of course, after you've become acquainted with the game, you'll want to consider the score as well, as eating enemies will give you good boosts, so there's lots of options to go for.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention in my previous post.
In some of the levels there are more than one exit doors, although I'm not sure yet of what the differences are between them.
I know they lead to the same levels (no skipping, as I originally though), but perhaps it affects difficulty?
I'll have to play more to find out.

So far I've made it to level 15 (or Act as the game calls it) using the continues, so I still have to work on it.

Also the ¥2000 for the brand new game is damn great.