XOP Ultra and XOP Black Ultra thread

[mjclark]

Yeah- XOP G does indeed look awesome. I'm just discovering Hellsinker at the moment and also really enjoying Stella Vanity so a bit of weapons complexity sounds like just the ticket
Not sure about this "shadow swap" though- there was a similar mechanic in Under The Lotus and I really didn't like it cos it totally broke the flow of the game...
...Anyways keep up the good work and count me in!

[BPzeBanshee]

Yeah- XOP G does indeed look awesome. I'm just discovering Hellsinker at the moment and also really enjoying Stella Vanity so a bit of weapons complexity sounds like just the ticket
Not sure about this "shadow swap" though- there was a similar mechanic in Under The Lotus and I really didn't like it cos it totally broke the flow of the game...
...Anyways keep up the good work and count me in!

Weren't the continuity issues with Under The Lotus fixed? I'm sure I remember hearing such, but I digress.

XOP G screens look awesome, but the scoring system reads like a gimmick and already way to complex. One lesson from XOP and XOP black was: Keep it simple.
I hope you can tone down the system or implement the gimmicks in some clever way, otherwise XOP G is bound to fall into obscurity as well.

Sounds simpler than the Raizing games IMO. Kill enemies > use hijack shot > charge up black hole meter > use black hole > profit.

I must confess that the shadow swap mechanic however, does sound a bit convoluted. I'd suggest making it survival-only, or making it work a bit more like Guwange in that it just gives you an additional "precise firepower, anytime" option - that would work with the increased firepower better I think. The Galaga-style hijack shot worries me a little bit too, this may need tweaking in practice even if it sounds good in theory.

I'm also for the XOP Black Special-style pacing too. Playing XOP Black feels too longish now, I'd hate to see XOP G's stages drag on.

[Udderdude]

I'm also for the XOP Black Special-style pacing too. Playing XOP Black feels too longish now, I'd hate to see XOP G's stages drag on. :P

That assumes there's going to be 10 levels, which I somehow doubt is going to happen. Realistically, I could have split XOP Ultra and XOP Black Ultra into 4 different games with the amount of levels they have (yes, that is ridiculous).

I'm going to keep the run time down to 25 min. For comparison, here are the run times for the other XOP games

xop ultra set 1 - 23 min - 4 levels, 1 extra level
xop ultra set 2 - 26 min - 4 levels, 1 extra level

xop black ultra arcade - 27 minutes - 5 levels
xop black ultra ex - 28 minutes - 5 levels
xop black ultra special - 26 minutes - 10 levels

[BPzeBanshee]

I'm also for the XOP Black Special-style pacing too. Playing XOP Black feels too longish now, I'd hate to see XOP G's stages drag on.

That assumes there's going to be 10 levels, which I somehow doubt is going to happen. Realistically, I could have split XOP Ultra and XOP Black Ultra into 4 different games with the amount of levels they have (yes, that is ridiculous).

I'm going to keep the run time down to 25 min. For comparison, here are the run times for the other XOP games:

xop ultra set 1 - 23 min - 4 levels, 1 extra level
xop ultra set 2 - 26 min - 4 levels, 1 extra level

xop black ultra arcade - 27 minutes - 5 levels
xop black ultra ex - 28 minutes - 5 levels
xop black ultra special - 26 minutes - 10 levels

I was thinking more along the lines of XOP Black Ultra's arcade run (5 levels) but being paced at something close to Special's rate. Maybe that might cut down to less than 25 but as we both know longer is not necessarily better.

In all seriousness though I think it's early enough in the project that we might be jumping ahead here.

[Plasmo]

XOP G screens look awesome, but the scoring system reads like a gimmick and already way to complex. One lesson from XOP and XOP black was: Keep it simple.
I hope you can tone down the system or implement the gimmicks in some clever way, otherwise XOP G is bound to fall into obscurity as well.

Sounds simpler than the Raizing games IMO. Kill enemies > use hijack shot > charge up black hole meter > use black hole > profit.

I have two completely different answers and I can't decide, which one I should give, so I'm including them both in this post:


First answer: Since most people dislike the scoresystem of Raizing games, they'd probably avoid XOP G aswell. The hype that's around these games is because of nostalgic reasons or something like that. Most of the community here probably agrees that the scoring is way too complex and no fun to learn.

Second answer: Raizing games aren't complex at all and actually very simple (at least Garegga and Batrider). Bakraid is the only exception maybe. Garegga's scoresystem is piss easy if you look at it and breaks down into two simple mechanics:

i) Collect medals
ii) Bomb certain objects

That's actually all there is. Batrider is roughly the same.

[BulletMagnet]

Second answer: Raizing games aren't complex at all and actually very simple (at least Garegga and Batrider). Bakraid is the only exception maybe. Garegga's scoresystem is piss easy if you look at it and breaks down into two simple mechanics:

i) Collect medals
ii) Bomb certain objects

That's actually all there is. Batrider is roughly the same.

Well, there's also the "shoot certain boss parts with certain types of shots for more/less points" thing if you want to count that, and maybe boss milking/chipping and dismantling some mid-sized enemies in a certain way to get different items from them. Your larger point is valid though, as Raizing's scoring systems usually aren't too complicated, all things considered...though if you wanted to mention one exception to the rule I'd be tempted to drag out Dimahoo.

[Plasmo]

Alright good points there, Dimahoo has a very complex scoring system indeed! And the dismantling boss parts could be implemented in ii)

ii) Destroy certain enemies/bossparts with the right shot (normal, piercing, bomb)

[BPzeBanshee]

The real issue with the popular Raizing games which I think the main generic statement that all the Cave noobs use is: oh you make it sound so simple but there's all this rank control you have to do to make the game actually plausible to beat. Ra ra ra ra ima go back to Mushi Futari. We most certainly won't have this issue with XOP if it's simple enough and the difficulty has a consistent curve.

Will you be releasing test versions for us to pull apart Udderdude or do we have to wait for a $5 retail release before the inevitable bug reports can start to roll in?

[Udderdude]

The engine is quite solid at this point so I doubt you're going to see any HUEG bugs. (I don't recall any major code related boogs with Ultra anyway, the biggest was that I forgot to include some data files .. oops)

I may be sending out test versions via PM at some point.

Yes it's going to cost moneys. :P

[TheSoundofRed]

I may be sending out test versions via PM at some point.

<Insert not so subtle hint that I want test version PM here>

[BPzeBanshee]

I didn't mean to sound like a scrooge in terms of the cost, but I figure it'd be easier to do private testing for bugs (ie. how could anyone miss the borked input replays for XOP Black Special?) prior to retail sale, thus not having to update it post-release.

Speaking of that bug, will we see an update to fix said issue?

[mjclark]

Or you could do what some indie devs do and take pre-orders for the game that also give access to the test builds... clever eh?

[BPzeBanshee]

Or you could do what some indie devs do and take pre-orders for the game that also give access to the test builds... clever eh?

This too! Minecraft sold well. It would however require that Udderdude get used to the idea of adding version numbers to the menu somewhere otherwise we'll end up with one of the long-term banes of this game from its freeware/shareware days become a short-tem development hell - testers who purchase the game not being able to tell whether they should update or not.

[Krimzon Kitzune]

The engine is quite solid at this point so I doubt you're going to see any HUEG bugs. (I don't recall any major code related boogs with Ultra anyway, the biggest was that I forgot to include some data files .. oops)

I may be sending out test versions via PM at some point.

Yes it's going to cost moneys.

Got my modem replaced, I'm back online. I noticed that post and I'd like to take a crack at a test build.

EDIT: Looks like the bundle is already receiving some recognition!

http://www.indiegamemag.com/need-more-s ... ra-bundle/

[BPzeBanshee]

Will we see a fix for XOP Black Ultra Special's input replay support?

[Udderdude]

It sucks, but right now it's not a huge priority for me to fix. Sorry but I'm really buried in other stuff to do at the moment.

[BPzeBanshee]

That's cool. I think I'm the only one here who cares anyway. Let us know when you get around to it.

[Plasmo]

We're at least two.

[BPzeBanshee]

I pointed this out in another thread just the other day and said the same thing. See here. Udderdude's post there might help too.

[BPzeBanshee]

Same here. I blame Windows 7's poor legacy support. Apparently there's even some newer games that aren't exactly MS-DOS era but rather early Vista stuff that does the same thing under this.

[Udderdude]

Of course, a real fix would be nice.

Yeah, maybe someday I'll go back and make a 32-bit color version of the Ultra games, which would also alleviate the remaining 'ugly color banding' issues in the artwork.

Unless you meant a fix for the palette issue itself, in which case there's nothing I can do, sorry.

[Udderdude]

I'd rather you spent the effort toward releasing the next XOP game as soon as possible :)

I'm going to be honest here, I haven't really felt like working on it yet. I've been putting my time into working on various Flash games which I've wanted to make for some time. For instance, the latest one, Twin Reaper, is based on a game I started but never finished in 2002 called Standoff.

I think part of the reason is that I've done so much with shmups already, and these other games/genres feel like new ground for me. I can do things with them that you never see in traditional auto-scrolling shmups, or you can't really do with shmups at all. Or when you do try to do them with shmups, it sucks and ruins what makes shmups fun (to me, anyway).

I also honestly think I'm better at solid puzzle game design than I am at shmup design and shmup stage design. And shmups can be endlessly tweaked, while puzzle games are more like set it once and forget it, since if you fuck with it too much you may accidentally make a puzzle unsolveable.

XOP G will get made eventually, just not sure when.

[mjclark]

XOP G will get made eventually, just not sure when.

Please don't leave it too long man! I'll even buy it

[BPzeBanshee]

Sounds understandable. There's the matter of doing something new after working on one/two particular things for a long time which I think a fair few of us developers here have experienced lately too.

I know some people here may feel a bit iffy about puzzles but frankly I think we need more radical puzzle stuff getting made. Most of the ones around haven't been my forte but you don't need to have a masters in the category to know that doing the exact same thing over and over and over again is no good, so it's nice when someone such as yourself tries out radical things that actually work.

Good luck on your future journeys man. I know we haven't gotten along all the time in the past but I do hope these latest ventures turn out well. I'll be keeping an eye on things here for sure.

[Lord Satori]

Just registered a couple minutes ago. I'd like to point out that my Don Cook is my dad, and that I'm the one who wrote the story and not him. (I use his e-mail)

anyway, whats XOP Black special? is that a 3rd secret route or...

[BPzeBanshee]

The bundle comes with XOP, XOP Black, and XOP Black Special. The latter is XOP Black with radical changes such as the bomb creating enemies out of bullets, one difficulty option (Bullshit) and more streamlined stage progression in general.

Also broken input replays for just about every stage. I was pestering the man a while ago to get that fixed but he's been busy with real life stuff.

[tiaoferreira]

Is this version that contains GRYZOR's art?

[BPzeBanshee]

No. That's XOP G which is in some form of development.

[Udderdude]

I'm considering making an update for XOP/Black Ultra that adds online highscores. However, I would only bother to do so if there was some interest in it.

The plan would be to add leaderboards for specific skill/modes, so there's not a gazillion of them. This would also solidify what would be considered the "official" skill/modes for score play. There would be 12 leaderboards for each game. That's still a lot, but it's mostly due to each game having two completely different sets of levels. Any feedback on this would also be appreciated.

[Jeneki]

I'd certainly use it. Would that also include uploading / donwloading replays?