Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

[cyborc]

Mine arrived last night and I hooked it up to my older Vizio in my family room. The colors definitely seemed off, especially in Mega Man X in the initial background sequence. I plan to hook it up to my newer 4K Vizio to see if the problem persists there.

I was using 720p with scanlines for most of my testing. I would separately say I found the scrolling less smooth than I was hoping. I couldn't find any interpolation options, but the shimmering was more noticeable than SNES+OSSC. I noticed it in the background of the Super Castlevania IV opening stage (the brick wall). Have others observed this?

Which games did you notice the scrolling not being smooth? I've noticed that certain games such as Super Mario World have hitches in the scrolling even on a real SNES. I received my system this morning but I haven't had a chance to test it yet.

[FBX]

^ I have compared the output of various tests of the 240p suite to the source bitmaps and the SNES DAC just outputs the colors and brightness as is. Besides, emulators are also digital and they don't have this issue.

I think the Super NT is doing RGB->YUV conversion somewhere and messing up badly.

I'll do some captures when mine arrives on Monday.

Please post some captures of the 240p suite SMPTE Color Bars. I am curious how that will look.

Will do. And also I'd like to point out that Kevtris hinted that he based the Super Nt's output on 'eyeballing' his PVM. If that's the case, then we need to get him to add an option for a default palette like that used in Higan for example.

[strygo]

The game I noticed it with was Super Castlevania IV. I was running 3.1. I'm about to upgrade to 3.9 to see if that resolves my problem.

[copy]

Will do. And also I'd like to point out that Kevtris hinted that he based the Super Nt's output on 'eyeballing' his PVM. If that's the case, then we need to get him to add an option for a default palette like that used in Higan for example.

A related post from Kevtris on AtariAge:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/242970 ... try3958858

Yeah I usually keep it [Gamma Boost] on too. It was very obvious looking at the PVM vs. flat panel during development that the flat panel was too dark.

[FBX]

I started making a series of comparison pics in order to be ready for the Super Nt on Monday evening when I can add those to the list. However, I'm curious what the consensus is on Gain settings in the OSSC to use? If I go with the default of 26 for RGB, the image is WAY too muted. On the other hand, if I set the gain for pure white matching 255-255-255, it comes out looking almost identical to an emulator. Case in point is Higan on the left versus my 1CHIP-03 on the right (captured in lossless color on the Datapath E1S card):



What do you guys think? Should I test all three of my SNES consoles with pure white set to 255-255-255, or do you prefer some other clearly defined gain setting in the OSSC?

[GigaBoots]

DF Retro did a review and yea, he also recommends leaving the gamma boost on at all times. I'm excited to get my hands on it myself to compare default gain settings vs tuned settings. But I think mine is showing up Tuesday/Wednesday so FBX will beat me to that punch for sure.

[Wolf_]

I started making a series of comparison pics in order to be ready for the Super Nt on Monday evening when I can add those to the list. However, I'm curious what the consensus is on Gain settings in the OSSC to use? If I go with the default of 26 for RGB, the image is WAY too muted. On the other hand, if I set the gain for pure white matching 255-255-255, it comes out looking almost identical to an emulator. Case in point is Higan on the left versus my 1CHIP-03 on the right (captured in lossless color on the Datapath E1S card):

What do you guys think? Should I test all three of my SNES consoles with pure white set to 255-255-255, or do you prefer some other clearly defined gain setting in the OSSC?

Looks to me like on those settings you are just the tiniest hair too bright. I would go just a bit darker and see if you could get rid of some of the fuzz in your blacks.

[paulb_nl]

What do you guys think? Should I test all three of my SNES consoles with pure white set to 255-255-255, or do you prefer some other clearly defined gain setting in the OSSC?

Sure every console should be adjusted to the same full brightness. I have also been going through my consoles and adjusting gain on the OSSC so the colors are balanced and full 255.

DF Retro did a review and yea, he also recommends leaving the gamma boost on at all times.

I just watched this and his recommendation to just leave the gamma boost on is ridiculous. It looks terrible with that on. Also I believe he mentioned nothing about the off colors. He showed the grayramp of the 240p suite but he was in the menu so everything was darkened.

[FBX]

Looks to me like on those settings you are just the tiniest hair too bright. I would go just a bit darker and see if you could get rid of some of the fuzz in your blacks.

I'll check with a pure black screen and see how it looks, though I'm inclined to stick with calibrating the images based on full white.

[Wolf_]

Looks to me like on those settings you are just the tiniest hair too bright. I would go just a bit darker and see if you could get rid of some of the fuzz in your blacks.

I'll check with a pure black screen and see how it looks, though I'm inclined to stick with calibrating the images based on full white.

It is my understanding that capture cards capture the data as it is sent and not as the screen displays it so I'm pretty sure on that setting you are going to have some grey in your blacks unless you set the display to overcompensate for that.

[evil_ash_xero]

Mine arrived last night and I hooked it up to my older Vizio in my family room. The colors definitely seemed off, especially in Mega Man X in the initial background sequence. I plan to hook it up to my newer 4K Vizio to see if the problem persists there.

I was using 720p with scanlines for most of my testing. I would separately say I found the scrolling less smooth than I was hoping. I couldn't find any interpolation options, but the shimmering was more noticeable than SNES+OSSC. I noticed it in the background of the Super Castlevania IV opening stage (the brick wall). Have others observed this?

There are interpolation options, make sure you're on the latest firmware and have advanced settings enabled. If you're doing a stretch to 4:3 or something, you'd definitely get horizontal shimmering without interpolation.

It does? Well, that makes me a lot more interested.

[Seraphic]

Any vids that shows all the options?

MLIG and DFR are probably the best ones for a detailed overview of the available settings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_OW_t9RXEM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOSQgBEf5ac

[evil_ash_xero]

Any vids that shows all the options?

MLIG and DFR are probably the best ones for a detailed overview of the available settings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_OW_t9RXEM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOSQgBEf5ac

I'm watching the DF one. Is the interpolation primarily "on" or "off"? You can't adjust it? Anyone have have any pics of interpolation activated compared to it being off?
It's kind of important for me. I can't stand the "Lego" look.
I'm slightly hesitant to order it now, as I'm worried there may be hardware revisions. I know software would be easy to fix. Did they do any hardware revisions with the Nintendo model?

[Fudoh]

I'm watching the DF one. Is the interpolation primarily "on" or "off"? You can't adjust it? Anyone have have any pics of interpolation activated compared to it being off?

The interpolation here is subtle. It's what you get on the SNES Mini. It's not what you might expect from emus or other systems where that option is available. DF has a comparison at 21:23. As you can see it's not about blurring the graphics, but about fixing scrolling issues you would have without using interpolation.

If you want softer graphics, just lower the output resolution. 480p into your display is probably more to your liking then.

[evil_ash_xero]

Ah, I see. Thanks for the info.

[strygo]

I just finished watching the DF Retro video. Very well done and a bit more technically focused than the MLIG one. I was surprised to see the direct comparison of Super Nt to OSSC with the visible color differences. I was expecting John to address this disparity later on, but he never did. I look forward to FBX's definitive investigation in the coming days.

[Artemio]

Looks to me like on those settings you are just the tiniest hair too bright. I would go just a bit darker and see if you could get rid of some of the fuzz in your blacks.

I'll check with a pure black screen and see how it looks, though I'm inclined to stick with calibrating the images based on full white.

I'd recommend using the PLUGE for that.

[FBX]

I'd recommend using the PLUGE for that.

Okay, what's the ideal calibration for PLUGE? I see there are two options, RGB and NTSC 7.5 IRE.

Edit: Research on the test pattern makes me realize it's a monitor calibration pattern. So all I can do is make sure it approximately matches Higan under the same image.

Edit: Compared PLUGE from Higan and my OSSC settings, and they look identical, so this should be a kosher method. I'll do a set of 3 screenshots from each console: Super Metroid title screen, Super Mario World stage with the slanted pillars, and 75% SMPTE color pattern from 240p Test Suite.

[neorichieb1971]

Does this device handle battery backup files? Would be good if you didn't have to change batteries.

[FBX]

Okay, so I realized by balancing pure white to 255-255-255, I was effectively color-correcting hue variations between systems. So to make the test more fair, I set the RGB gain to the first of the signals to hit 255. So for example, if red hit 255 first at a value of 75, then I set all three lines at a gain of 75. This retains hue bias in the console.

At any rate, I've made a comparison chart image on the Super Metroid title screen using the following consoles from left to right:

Higan >>> SNES Classic >>> Voultar-modded Junior >>> 1CHIP03 stock encoder + 750 Ohm resistors >>> APU SNES with subcarrier interference removed



Some things of notes on these image results:

1. SNES Classic is RIFE with intentional film grain effects Nintendo seems to love using in their classic line. Terrible.
2. The Junior and 1CHIP both exhibit the same slightly off RGB interpretation compared to all the other sources, due to of course both being based on the same 1CHIP technology.
3. While the PQ is terrible on the APU SNES, it does retain the same RGB appearance as that of Higan and SNES Classic.

When the Super Nt arrives tomorrow, I'll add it to the list, but already I'm betting we'll have to lobby Kevtris and Analogue to add in the Higan palette for accuracy's sake.

[Thomas83lin]

When the Super Nt arrives tomorrow, I'll add it to the list, but already I'm betting we'll have to lobby Kevtris and Analogue to add in the Higan palette for accuracy's sake.

Here's a quote from kevtris, from the sounds of it there is no palette

" Since the super nt is RGB, there's no palette. In the near future I will be exposing the gamma boost function so you can set it to any value you like, though. (vs. it being preset to 2 values like it is now. off and on)."

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/242970 ... ?p=3959700

[FBX]

Here's a quote from kevtris, from the sounds of it there is no palette

" Since the super nt is RGB, there's no palette. In the near future I will be exposing the gamma boost function so you can set it to any value you like, though. (vs. it being preset to 2 values like it is now. off and on)."

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/242970 ... ?p=3959700

I just don't understand. If it's RGB, then surely there's a digital control for each signal. It should be possible to make it look exactly like Higan for example.

[Wariolicious]

Any vids that shows all the options?

I'm watching the DF one. Is the interpolation primarily "on" or "off"? You can't adjust it? Anyone have have any pics of interpolation activated compared to it being off?
It's kind of important for me. I can't stand the "Lego" look.

Then just use scanlines in 720p, problem solved!

[jayde6]

I just don't understand. If it's RGB, then surely there's a digital control for each signal. It should be possible to make it look exactly like Higan for example.

Could it have to with Kevtris using Super Famicoms to reverse engineer? Is there a color/brightness difference between them and Super Nintendos?

[FBX]

Could it have to with Kevtris using Super Famicoms to reverse engineer? Is there a color/brightness difference between them and Super Nintendos?

Apparently it uses a specific colorspace as to why there's no 'palette' per se. If this is the case, then in theory Kevtris releasing full control over gamma settings should allow us to set the Super Nt to match Higan for example.

[paulb_nl]

Okay, so I realized by balancing pure white to 255-255-255, I was effectively color-correcting hue variations between systems. So to make the test more fair, I set the RGB gain to the first of the signals to hit 255. So for example, if red hit 255 first at a value of 75, then I set all three lines at a gain of 75. This retains hue bias in the console.

More fair in what way? The difference in RGB signals are caused by the variances in the analog video circuits. If you do not correct these then you are not getting the perfect source colors. Higan, SNES Classic and Super NT are pure digital so they do not have these variances.

I just don't understand. If it's RGB, then surely there's a digital control for each signal. It should be possible to make it look exactly like Higan for example.

It's not simply just an issue of to much blue or not enough red. The colors are off depending on the RGB color combination. For example the red letters in the Super mario World title screen have not enough red and not enough blue but the blue sky has too much red and too much blue.

The only thing Kevtris needs to do is stop messing with the colors and just convert the 15bit RGB colors (0-31) to 24 bit RGB (0-255).

[ikari_01]

Could it be a mismatch of color spaces (REC 601 vs REC 709)?

[FBX]

More fair in what way? The difference in RGB signals are caused by the variances in the analog video circuits. If you do not correct these then you are not getting the perfect source colors.

There IS NO perfect color source for exactly that reason. I'd rather retain the slight variations from console to console for posterity. Correcting them doesn't make it genuine in any real sense of the word. Besides that, as you can see from the comparison strip, it didn't matter. The 1CHIP/Junior lines have a distinctive difference, while everything else matched Higan more or less.

Anyway, my precious arrived today and I had to take a photo of my SD2SNES in it:




I'm going to update to the latest firmware and get crackin. However, as I mentioned, Kevtris is already working on new gamma controls.

[Xer Xian]

There are several factors at play that make a perfect color matching between two machines set apart by 25 years of technical advancements quite difficult to achieve. Though I'll say that to my untrained eyes the pictures posted by FBX are pretty much identical

(although if there's black crush, then that's bad yeah)

[ikari_01]

I still think the black crush observed was due to a mismatch in HDMI RGB range settings. The Super Nt always outputs full range RGB so if your display/capture device is set to limited range (or even doesn't accept anything but limited range) there will be black (and white) crush. I could reproduce the Mega Man X issue by toggling the HDMI RGB range on my TV.